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Civilian uses of body cameras?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Are body cameras good insurance against false accusations/rumors?

Yes
43
69%
No
13
21%
Other
6
10%
 
Total votes : 62

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Saiwana
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Civilian uses of body cameras?

Postby Saiwana » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:18 am

The Mike Pence rule is a code of conduct among men which has become more common in the era of #MeToo since at least 2017 onwards. Which is that men who abide by it intentionally avoid spending any time alone with women to whom they are not married so as to ward off any potential for false accusations or rumors of impropriety. It is so named after Mike Pence because he's said to never let himself be in a room with other women unless his wife is present.

While it is all well and good (if the intention is self preservation among men who have a lot to lose), the only major problem is that it is sexist and likely illegal under US labor law if it isn't the same case in other developed countries as well.

Because there are many situations where women in the workplace at some point- have to be alone with a higher ranking man to be mentored or to discuss business, but women often miss out on crucial promotion/career advancement opportunities if those same men refuse to associate with the opposite sex at work out of fears of getting blackmailed or pushed out of their career if they're in a vulnerable position and it looks bad to the wider public when or if a false accusation is made over hurt feelings or whatever else may be the real motive/reason.

It sometimes doesn't matter if misconduct happened or not, if it merely appears to be the case and if his defense is too weak, he's liable to possibly get fired or arbitrarily put on blast as a creep. There is sometimes no winning in that, if you avoid too much, you're creating a "hostile work environment" but if you socialize too much it is unprofessional "fraternization."

Then I've got to thinking, why not permit the use of body cameras or proliferate the technology to the civilian world? Law enforcement in recent years has used this relatively new technology to great effect to try to hold themselves accountable and to regain the trust of the public that pays them. In settings where there is no expectation of privacy, would it not make more sense to allow if not require people to record footage/audio of their entire day at all hours whilst away from home? Might this be the solution to get men to be comfortable enough to work with women in one on one contexts? I see it as a win-win, if women can get the career benefits they want, whilst men won't be railroaded into a situation where he'll lose if it is only his word against hers.

In any dispute which comes up, footage of the "day of the incident" from both sides' point of view will be taken and compared to give a fully unbiased accounting of what happened, from which- HR will know for sure who to fire or punish if they're in the wrong. If footage is missing, the person with less footage will have a weaker case and will lose more likely, which should incentivize people to ensure that their body camera is active and working.

I'm in favor on those grounds, but what do you all think? Are there any ethical/legal/privacy concerns which may come about from what I propose? Do you believe that some day, body cameras will be used even more for many purposes as insurance or due diligence? Might there some day be worn cameras which will look practically invisible that can still perform their functions in gathering evidence when you're out in public?

Where I live anyways, there are no laws pertaining to what you're allowed to do with body cameras because they're new and the legal system doesn't have much case law on it because relatively few people as of yet, go to the trouble of utilizing these devices in a civilian or workplace context. Asides from of course, what isn't already not allowed under existing laws, like remotely spying on someone's hotel room. Personally, I'd love to live in a world where if you did nothing wrong, there is at least some proof that allegations aren't true. I want to wear a body camera at work and in public to protect my good name, but do you? Why or why not? Discuss.
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El Lazaro
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Postby El Lazaro » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:28 am

Unless you have a strong reason to believe you’ll get into a legal dispute over a non-traffic related incident that you aren’t necessarily to blame for, it’s pretty weird, paranoid, and/or creepy.

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Postby Floofybit » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:46 am

Yes, surveillance is good
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:57 am

Floofybit wrote:Yes, surveillance is good

Weird thing to say anonymously on the internet.
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Postby Senkaku » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:18 am

Ifreann wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Yes, surveillance is good

Weird thing to say anonymously on the internet.

El Lazaro wrote:Unless you have a strong reason to believe you’ll get into a legal dispute over a non-traffic related incident that you aren’t necessarily to blame for, it’s pretty weird, paranoid, and/or creepy.

Such nervous nellies— the surgery to get a dashcam permanently mounted on your forehead generally has very good outcomes, there’s only hemorrhaging in like five percent of cases
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Duncaq
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Postby Duncaq » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

With the advent of AI, we are entering an era where photographic evidence will become increasingly unreliable.
Arguably this has been the case since photoshop became a thing , or even Stalin messing about editing photographs.
As AI tech moves into convincing video creation, video footage may also become unreliable as a source of evidence.
I'm pretty sure this is already happening to a degree.

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Mr Matzerati
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Postby Mr Matzerati » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:27 am

As long as someones privacy isn't harmed, im not against this

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Floofybit
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Postby Floofybit » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:31 am

Actually, no. We shouldn't have body cams. Just lots of track cams on cars and many many many more surveillance cams
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Postby Senkaku » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:33 am

Floofybit wrote:Actually, no. We shouldn't have body cams. Just lots of track cams on cars and many many many more surveillance cams

How about just a bunch of guys with binoculars everywhere all the time? Jobs for the boys etc
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Postby Portzania » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:33 am

I know everyone is conspiring against me and waiting for my downfall. They are plotting for it. Full support of body cameras, as this will curb my enemies from gang stalking me and ruining my every single move.
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Postby Floofybit » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:33 am

Senkaku wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Actually, no. We shouldn't have body cams. Just lots of track cams on cars and many many many more surveillance cams

How about just a bunch of guys with binoculars everywhere all the time? Jobs for the boys etc

Hehe that sounds fun
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Postby Aquanatia » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:42 am

Sounds like a paranoia issue, but no judgement here.
I feel like there are very few situations in which one would be necessary, and even then would be difficult to use as evidence.
Honestly, though, if you constantly worry about needing evidence for where you are/what you're currently doing, you should probably talk to someone about it. Or get out of that place/situation.
Again, no judgement, this is merely my opinion.
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Postby Saiwana » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:51 am

El Lazaro wrote:Unless you have a strong reason to believe you’ll get into a legal dispute over a non-traffic related incident that you aren’t necessarily to blame for, it’s pretty weird, paranoid, and/or creepy.


You could think that, but what will you do if you ever are in a "he said she said" situation, where by default- the woman will be believed or given favoritism over any man? Merely looking towards her direction the wrong way could get you in trouble. Having unaltered footage as evidence could be great in being your best advocate.
Last edited by Saiwana on Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Past beans » Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:55 am

I believe civilian use of body cameras is a great idea.
having unedited footage of what happened can be crucial to making your case.
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Postby Juansonia » Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:33 am

The body cameras we already have don't do shit - the police are always in the right (even when shooting someone who is clearly unarmed), and cyclists are always in the wrong(even when deliberately ran off the road). Who is to say that bodycams would change the status quo in any other case?
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Postby United Calanworie » Mon Mar 13, 2023 11:22 am

Saiwana wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:Unless you have a strong reason to believe you’ll get into a legal dispute over a non-traffic related incident that you aren’t necessarily to blame for, it’s pretty weird, paranoid, and/or creepy.


You could think that, but what will you do if you ever are in a "he said she said" situation, where by default- the woman will be believed or given favoritism over any man? Merely looking towards her direction the wrong way could get you in trouble. Having unaltered footage as evidence could be great in being your best advocate.

Right, which is why *everyone* believed the women who said that Donald Trump raped the- oh wait. Never mind.
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Postby Saiwana » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:14 pm

United Calanworie wrote:Right, which is why *everyone* believed the women who said that Donald Trump raped the- oh wait. Never mind.


If Donald Trump is a rich and famous public figure, isn't the assumption that most accusors are just out to try to blackmail or extract hush money out of him? The liberal media as I recall, tried to ruin him in this way, but it didn't land because enough people voted for Trump anyways.

Would it not be very different if he was just some regular unmarried guy who isn't so much higher ranking or rich as who they're being accused by? If a man is a nobody or an unknown, I can imagine that it'd be much easier for more people to assume the worst in him compared to a woman if it is exclusively a "he said she said" scenario. That is why some form of unbiased evidence being available is needed to preemptively protect people from stuff like this.

If it isn't body cameras, what better alternatives might there be? I figure, what really is the harm in there being more vids to know what people did?
Last edited by Saiwana on Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby United Calanworie » Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:49 pm

Saiwana wrote:
United Calanworie wrote:Right, which is why *everyone* believed the women who said that Donald Trump raped the- oh wait. Never mind.


If Donald Trump is a rich and famous public figure, isn't the assumption that most accusors are just out to try to blackmail or extract hush money out of him? The liberal media as I recall, tried to ruin him in this way, but it didn't land because enough people voted for Trump anyways.

You did say *any* man.

Would it not be very different if he was just some regular unmarried guy who isn't so much higher ranking or rich as who they're being accused by? If a man is a nobody or an unknown, I can imagine that it'd be much easier for more people to assume the worst in him compared to a woman if it is exclusively a "he said she said" scenario. That is why some form of unbiased evidence being available is needed to preemptively protect people from stuff like this.

If it isn't body cameras, what better alternatives might there be? I figure, what really is the harm in there being more vids to know what people did?

For me the harm is that I don't really want to be recorded without my consent. I'd prefer that my interactions with people remain un-recorded, because I'm a private individual like that. And ultimately, I think the "need" for cameras comes down to the following: men thinking they need protection from women accusing them of sexual harassment/assault, when the statistics show that only 2-10% of reports are fake, which is on-par with false reporting for other crimes.

But hey, do you know what *is* the case? 63% of sexual assaults are never reported, partially because victims are worried of being accused of falsely reporting... which isn't helped by threads like these that only serve to fearmonger about false reporting rates that are on par with other crimes.
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Postby Saiwana » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:11 pm

I'm not sure if I really believe the common statistics on the topic of sexual harassment/assault. It doesn't make sense to me if people by default lie about so many things at different points in their life for so many reasons, but in this one realm/domain, they're all of the sudden supposed to be taken as more truthful and forthcoming? Show me a single person who has never lied about anything ever? Chances are they don't exist. We're all bad/flawed people, just to varying extents.
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Postby United Calanworie » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:14 pm

Saiwana wrote:I'm not sure if I really believe the common statistics on the topic of sexual harassment/assault. It doesn't make sense to me if people by default lie about so many things at different points in their life for so many reasons, but in this one realm/domain, they're all of the sudden supposed to be taken as more truthful and forthcoming? Show me a single person who has never lied about anything ever? Chances are they don't exist. We're all bad/flawed people, just to varying extents.

Weirdly, people are less inclined to lie when the result of their lie is significant prison time for somebody, and if they get caught in the lie, significant criminal or civil penalties for themselves. It's kind of a fact that we rely on in our entire criminal justice system, *not* just for sexual assault/harassment.
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:15 pm

Portzania wrote:I know everyone is conspiring against me and waiting for my downfall. They are plotting for it. Full support of body cameras, as this will curb my enemies from gang stalking me and ruining my every single move.

I feel like there's a word for this.
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Postby Drongonia » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:21 pm

United Calanworie wrote:Weirdly, people are less inclined to lie when the result of their lie is significant prison time for somebody, and if they get caught in the lie, significant criminal or civil penalties for themselves.

I'm not so sure about that. Plenty of people lie in situations like this. Not just in reference to sexual assault, but a whole raft of things where being honest was probably a better idea.

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Postby United Calanworie » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:26 pm

Drongonia wrote:
United Calanworie wrote:Weirdly, people are less inclined to lie when the result of their lie is significant prison time for somebody, and if they get caught in the lie, significant criminal or civil penalties for themselves.

I'm not so sure about that. Plenty of people lie in situations like this. Not just in reference to sexual assault, but a whole raft of things where being honest was probably a better idea.

I mean yes. I linked statistics showing a 2-10% false reporting rate for sexual assault, but it's notably not any different than other crimes, according to the sources I linked above. My point was effectively that if you're saying that you "need" to wear a body camera to protect yourself from false SA allegations, it's not really any more likely than being falsely accused of murder or carjacking and therefore you would "need" to wear one to protect yourself from those as well.
Last edited by United Calanworie on Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:28 pm

Saiwana wrote:I'm not sure if I really believe the common statistics on the topic of sexual harassment/assault. It doesn't make sense to me if people by default lie about so many things at different points in their life for so many reasons, but in this one realm/domain, they're all of the sudden supposed to be taken as more truthful and forthcoming? Show me a single person who has never lied about anything ever? Chances are they don't exist. We're all bad/flawed people, just to varying extents.

Posts like this are just self-reports.
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Postby Drongonia » Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:33 pm

United Calanworie wrote:
Drongonia wrote:I'm not so sure about that. Plenty of people lie in situations like this. Not just in reference to sexual assault, but a whole raft of things where being honest was probably a better idea.

I mean yes. I linked statistics showing a 2-10% false reporting rate for sexual assault, but it's notably not any different than other crimes, according to the sources I linked above. My point was effectively that if you're saying that you "need" to wear a body camera to protect yourself from false SA allegations, it's not really any more likely than being falsely accused of murder or carjacking and therefore you would "need" to wear one to protect yourself from those as well.

To be fair, it would work - the logic is quite sound actually. It's just a very hamfisted way of proving your innocence.

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