Gun Control 2023 (V) - ATF Shenanigans, States Fight Back!

[Adamede]

Republicans should be forced to watch the footage of all these mass shootings. Another mass shooting happened in Texas. This is PREVENTABLE.

Yah I can’t think of any form of gun control that will stop these shootings. And AWB won’t stop them as you don’t need an “assault weapon” to kill a bunch of people, and registrations and licensing won’t stop them because of the large number of guns that are unregistered already in circulation.

I Emma I guess you could advocate for a complete ban but that’s never going to happen.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

By youth, do they mean five year olds?

*Checks data*

Um, how did they poll 72% of people between the ages of 35 to 90 and also managed to get >65% with no degree or high school diploma?

Where did you get the stuff about no degree or high school diploma? I couldn't find anything about high school diplomas in the links. With the issue of 4 year degrees though, it's roughly in line with national polling showing that about 40% have a bachelor's degree.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... graduates/

68% "No Degree" is mutually exclusive to even a 2-year Associate's degree.

The words "No Degree" if taken literal at face value, is far worse than just not having a doctorate or bachelor's degree.

[Caurus]

Where did you get the stuff about no degree or high school diploma? I couldn't find anything about high school diplomas in the links. With the issue of 4 year degrees though, it's roughly in line with national polling showing that about 40% have a bachelor's degree.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... graduates/

68% "No Degree" is mutually exclusive to even a 2-year Associate's degree.

The words "No Degree" if taken literal at face value, is far worse than just not having a doctorate or bachelor's degree.

Ah, I gotcha.

Edit: I did look into it a tiny bit. According to NCES, as of 2021, 49% of respondents had Associate's Degrees:
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=27
I'm fairly certain they based "No Degree" off of tertiary school attainment rather than High School or GED attainment.

[Adamede]

I’ve not killed a single kid so I don’t see why I should be punished over it.

I've not driven on a road in Montana or killed a member of Al-Qaeda, but I see how both of those benefit the US.

Yah and taking my guns isn’t going to benefit America as it’s not going to stop mass shootings.

[Adamede]

You can keep saying "appeal to emotion" when talking about dead children, I don't care. You can say how GVA is biased all you want, you can cry about how every source on mass shootings is biased and wrong, I literally do not care anymore. I will support gun reform, and I don't care how much you cry about your rights being restricted.

Also, mass shootings in European countries did stop once gun reform was made. Mass shootings is a uniquely American problem nowadays because EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IMPLEMENTED REFORMS BUT AMERICA REFUSES TO DO SO. Also, comparing cars and guns is always just a funny thing cause it's not even remotely comparable. Vehicles weren't made with the purpose to kill, and vehicles in AMerica have MORE REGULATIONS THAN GUNS DO.

Literally just had two in Serbia.

And yet vehicles still kill more.

[Techocracy101010]

like bruh you are never getting our guns were uploading 3d files for guns that are auto . You cannot and will never stop guns and freedom we will pass 500 million half a billion guns by 2026 in the usa as production only increases . We will literally burry you in arms and any attempt at regulation .

ex orca 3d printed ar with “super safety” Holds up to a forced reset trigger that causes similar to but legal full auto fire . https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auAqg-FiH ... e=youtu.be
like literally the harder yall push the more folks get creative we beat you at your own game repeatedly . And more stats are relaxing laws and sc delivered some stellar cases.

[Galloism]

I don't think this matters. An airplane's intended function is transport, but I don't think 9/11 was less serious of an event than this mass shooting we're currently discussing because the original intent of the weapon was different.

See, that's the wild thing about the US: flying has never been the same since it happened, with all kinds of regulations added, the creation of Homeland Security, and more knock-on effects. And that's with a fatality count of 2,996.

I can beat that number with the FBI's report on gun violence in 2019, and I don't even need all of the states. 1,142 from California, 1,064 from Texas, 647 from Illinois, and 367 from Georgia take us comfortably over the threshold. And yet here we are: individual gun murders and mass shootings keep happening, virtually unchecked. I guess because they aren't as flashy as flying into a building, and because the deaths are more spread out. I honestly believe that this country's a lost cause.

Hilariously, the regulation surrounding flying is appropriate for another reason: most of the regulations we put had absolutely no effect, and our security protocols are more appropriately named "security theater" than anything. The one thing that came out of 9/11 that actually matters from a security standpoint is the regulation to reinforce the cockpit door. That actually helps and makes good sense.

Beyond that, the reason for lack of such a thing after 9/11 is actually not any of the security at all, but the difference in attitude and approach by the passengers.

The current gun situation in this country is far from the well-regulated state militias that the Founding Fathers had in mind, and I read posts like "my right to guns beats people's right to life" (I'm paraphrasing because I can't be assed to go dig up the exact post).

I'll agree with that. They expected everyone (pretty much) to have a gun and be trained in its usage (well regulated in this context means essentially 'well trained' or 'well versed in usage'). There's far too few people with guns and many of the ones who have them aren't trained enough with them compared to the framers’ intentions.

(Now, I would also argue the intentions themselves were flawed, given they intended vast majority of white men should be armed, and we shouldn’t make policy on racial or gender lines.)

[Haganham]

dead children, I don't care.

We know. It's entirely performative, and very tiresome.
TBH the idea that someone would look at a massacre and think "how can we make these events slightly less deadly" and not "How can we create a society in which this doesn't happen?" was never very credible.
Now please sit down and stop monopolizing the podium for your theatrics. Some of us would like to live in a society where people don't want to commit suicide via mass murder.

[Galloism]

like bruh you are never getting our guns were uploading 3d files for guns that are auto . You cannot and will never stop guns and freedom we will pass 500 million half a billion guns by 2026 in the usa as production only increases . We will literally burry you in arms and any attempt at regulation .

ex orca 3d printed ar with “super safety” Holds up to a forced reset trigger that causes similar to but legal full auto fire . https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auAqg-FiH ... e=youtu.be
like literally the harder yall push the more folks get creative we beat you at your own game repeatedly . And more stats are relaxing laws and sc delivered some stellar cases.

I believe forced reset triggers are currently in legal limbo.

(I disagree with the ATF’s interpretation as a matter of law, but they do assert a forced reset trigger is a machine gun conversion as they assert “single function of the trigger” refers to the act of pulling the trigger, when I would argue it means single application of the trigger mechanism.)

[Galloism]

That wasn't your point, you're shifting the goalposts. You said, and I quote "Also, mass shootings in European countries did stop once gun reform was made." This is an objectively false statement, mass shootings still happen in pretty much all of these countries, and have seemingly been becoming more common since the 2010s.

I literally misphrased it. Regardless, the amount of mass shootings HAS lowered in these countries, which is still the whole point. It's not moving the goalposts if the rate at which these countries have mass shootings drastically lowered after gun reform.

I don’t think they have lowered in comparison to these countries historical norms. If you want to check the effectiveness of a policy, you need to compare before and after the policy was to enacted in the same country.

Otherwise the confounding factors make any real analysis impossible.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Republicans should be forced to watch the footage of all these mass shootings. Another mass shooting happened in Texas. This is PREVENTABLE.

Yah I can’t think of any form of gun control that will stop these shootings. And AWB won’t stop them as you don’t need an “assault weapon” to kill a bunch of people, and registrations and licensing won’t stop them because of the large number of guns that are unregistered already in circulation.

I Emma I guess you could advocate for a complete ban but that’s never going to happen.

And that right there is the problem, everything so far proposed as "common sense" gun control does absolutely nothing to actually address the core issues at hand and only punishes innocent people, which is why people reject it.

"Enhanced" background checks are redundant as they already exist...
Longer waiting periods won't do anything...
Red Flag Laws are ripe for abuse as is...
Closing the GSL is political theater for the uneducated/ignorant...
Banning rifles over cosmetics already did nothing...
Restricting magazine capacity will (and did) have no effect...
Microstamping is a joke...
Smart guns are an unreliably bad joke...

And so on and so on....

dead children, I don't care.

We know. It's entirely performative, and very tiresome.
TBH the idea that someone would look at a massacre and think "how can we make these events slightly less deadly" and not "How can we create a society in which this doesn't happen?" was never very credible.
Now please sit down and stop monopolizing the podium for your theatrics. Some of us would like to live in a society where people don't want to commit suicide via mass murder.

One could argue that a new classification that more accurately describes these incidents is in order.

Suicide by cop is a thing, why not suicide by mass murder?

[Grinning Dragon]

Colorado Moms Call on Governor Jared Polis to Ban and ‘Buy Back’ All Guns in the State

Guns are the number one killer of children in this country – and a group of Denver moms is banding together to change that by asking the governor to make a bold move and ban guns in Colorado.

Ahh, the bullshit "guns are the number one killer" of children. Yeah no. Repeating a lie is still lying.

“The executive order is asking Governor [Jared] Polis to ban all guns and implement a buyback program,” said Alyce Blum.

Aww. Bless their lil hearts.

[Haganham]

One could argue that a new classification that more accurately describes these incidents is in order.

It is. It is especially important as this is a growing problem through the industrialized world, and the overfocus on means, particularly in the case of the west, where guns are the avenue of choice, disguises a more fundamental social illness.

[Juansonia]

Colorado Moms Call on Governor Jared Polis to Ban and ‘Buy Back’ All Guns in the State

Guns are the number one killer of children in this country – and a group of Denver moms is banding together to change that by asking the governor to make a bold move and ban guns in Colorado.

Ahh, the bullshit "guns are the number one killer" of children. Yeah no. Repeating a lie is still lying.

If I remember correctly, guns passed cars a year or two back.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Colorado Moms Call on Governor Jared Polis to Ban and ‘Buy Back’ All Guns in the StateAhh, the bullshit "guns are the number one killer" of children. Yeah no. Repeating a lie is still lying.

If I remember correctly, guns passed cars a year or two back.

Accidents are still #1 though in the US according to the CDC. Firearm related doesn't even show up till later teens due to suicide, and even then it's still not the #1 cause.

[Grinning Dragon]

If I remember correctly, guns passed cars a year or two back.

Accidents are still #1 though in the US according to the CDC. Firearm related doesn't even show up till later teens due to suicide, and even then it's still not the #1 cause.

Just to add on to this..
The quoted death by firearms surpassing vehicles was from the propaganda outlet vpc playing fast and loose with the CDC's data, only then for the ap to massage it even further and as you pointed out, more people die in car accidents vs those getting shot.

[Techocracy101010]

dead children, I don't care.

We know. It's entirely performative, and very tiresome.
TBH the idea that someone would look at a massacre and think "how can we make these events slightly less deadly" and not "How can we create a society in which this doesn't happen?" was never very credible.
Now please sit down and stop monopolizing the podium for your theatrics. Some of us would like to live in a society where people don't want to commit suicide via mass murder.

its the suicide net issue these idiots are comfortable in their life and willingly ignore how shit life is for most people. ban the guns the issue goes away but it doesnt. Those angry folk are still here getting churned out . There was a car attack dude killed 8 in texas injured more. With a car. Ban guns ban knives ban cars lock down and require state id and put limits on ied components ban all the knowledge from the internet scrub and censor anything related to weapons hell yo be extra safe force anyone who practices a martial art to register their hands . Here is the thing the world will never ever be safe enough for people like you. Look at the uk banning freaking knives knives . The hysterics never freaking end in yalls endless march to self domestication. Look if you want to live in demolition man world please just leg the normal folk move out

[Kernen]

You can keep saying "appeal to emotion" when talking about dead children, I don't care. You can say how GVA is biased all you want, you can cry about how every source on mass shootings is biased and wrong, I literally do not care anymore. I will support gun reform, and I don't care how much you cry about your rights being restricted.

Also, mass shootings in European countries did stop once gun reform was made. Mass shootings is a uniquely American problem nowadays because EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IMPLEMENTED REFORMS BUT AMERICA REFUSES TO DO SO. Also, comparing cars and guns is always just a funny thing cause it's not even remotely comparable. Vehicles weren't made with the purpose to kill, and vehicles in AMerica have MORE REGULATIONS THAN GUNS DO.

So you admit that you're unwilling to stop using fallacies and bad data and that you're unwilling to come off your position in spite of evidence.

That means your input can be ignored out of hand moving forward.

[Kernen]

So based on your logic, we should take your vehicle away because someone in Alaska committed vehicular manslaughter with a stolen vehicle.

I wish you would be intellectually honest with me. One act of vehicular manslaughter does not track against mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting.

If it was a common occurrence for people to deliberately drive into schools/nightclubs/what-have-you and mow down as many people as possible, I'd be in favor of tighter vehicle control.

Roads are a good example to apply to this situation. We know that roads give us more freedom - freedom of travel, much further, faster, and easier, than traveling overland.

We also know they have a cost. Tens of thousands of lives.

Now we could quite easily (and by easily, i mean 'legislatively') ban all roads and tear them up, and that would save tens of thousands of lives in car crashes. But we also know it would severely harm our freedom of travel.

So what do we do?

Paddy's example of equating vehicles to guns is better, frankly. Traffic accidents do not track at all to deliberate mass shootings, and excluding using them to threaten other people, guns don't help you commute to work. Not especially helpful with deliveries, either, unless we wander into the realm of t-shirt cannons, and I'll pick that thread up when someone deliberately t-shoots a group of people to death. The net loss of destroying all roads is incomparable to the net loss of gun control.

Buddy, I can see plain as day that you are using GVA and articles linking to it just in the link description without having to click it. Why the fuck would I waste my time digging through the rest of those links when you already are using a debunked source for at least half of your sources?

Since The Two Jerseys has gone silent, perhaps you'd be willing to link the FBI's numbers on mass shootings for 2023?

Of course you don't see a loss to restriction of rights. You don't use those rights. That's like somebody who doesn't vote opining that the loss of voting rights isn't that great a deal.

It is a big deal to us, which is why we will continue to fight attempts to disarm. We see this right as valuable and worthwhile in its own right, regardless of your dismissal.

[Urkennalaid]

You can keep saying "appeal to emotion" when talking about dead children, I don't care. You can say how GVA is biased all you want, you can cry about how every source on mass shootings is biased and wrong, I literally do not care anymore. I will support gun reform, and I don't care how much you cry about your rights being restricted.

Also, mass shootings in European countries did stop once gun reform was made. Mass shootings is a uniquely American problem nowadays because EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IMPLEMENTED REFORMS BUT AMERICA REFUSES TO DO SO. Also, comparing cars and guns is always just a funny thing cause it's not even remotely comparable. Vehicles weren't made with the purpose to kill, and vehicles in AMerica have MORE REGULATIONS THAN GUNS DO.

So you admit that you're unwilling to stop using fallacies and bad data and that you're unwilling to come off your position in spite of evidence.

That means your input can be ignored out of hand moving forward.

Dead children and people mourning isn't a fallacy, but keep being internet brained until it's someone YOU care about that ends up getting hurt in a mass shooting.

Can't believe we got people out here saying theres dead children is an appeal to emotion. You literally help make the NRA nd no gun restrictions movement look even more psychotic.

[American Legionaries]

So you admit that you're unwilling to stop using fallacies and bad data and that you're unwilling to come off your position in spite of evidence.

That means your input can be ignored out of hand moving forward.

Dead children and people mourning isn't a fallacy, but keep being internet brained until it's someone YOU care about that ends up getting hurt in a mass shooting.

I have enough moral fortitude to continue doing the right thing despite personal loss, thank you very much.

Can't believe we got people out here saying theres dead children is an appeal to emotion. You literally help make the NRA nd no gun restrictions movement look even more psychotic.

Do dead children not ellicit an emotional response from you? And if not, how does that make other people psychotic.

Also, the NRA are on your side.

[Greater Cesnica]

Colorado Moms Call on Governor Jared Polis to Ban and ‘Buy Back’ All Guns in the State

Guns are the number one killer of children in this country – and a group of Denver moms is banding together to change that by asking the governor to make a bold move and ban guns in Colorado.

Ahh, the bullshit "guns are the number one killer" of children. Yeah no. Repeating a lie is still lying.

“The executive order is asking Governor [Jared] Polis to ban all guns and implement a buyback program,” said Alyce Blum.

Aww. Bless their lil hearts.

Least idiotic anti-gun proposal.

[Grinning Dragon]

Colorado Moms Call on Governor Jared Polis to Ban and ‘Buy Back’ All Guns in the State

Ahh, the bullshit "guns are the number one killer" of children. Yeah no. Repeating a lie is still lying.


Aww. Bless their lil hearts.

Least idiotic anti-gun proposal.

Well aside from the fact that such an executive order would be wholly unconstitutional then of course the glaring problem of where is the money going to come from when pushing for their confiscation buyback (how does a govt buy back something it never owned)?

[Kernen]

Dead children and people mourning isn't a fallacy, but keep being internet brained until it's someone YOU care about that ends up getting hurt in a mass shooting.

Can't believe we got people out here saying theres dead children is an appeal to emotion. You literally help make the NRA nd no gun restrictions movement look even more psychotic.

You don't seem to understand how logical fallacies work.

You are making an appeal to emotion. You are not just holding out an emotional situation and using that as justification for your position. You are using that as a reason to sidestep responses to avoid substantively engaging. If you had an argument, you could use it without deliberately evoking emotional overtures. But you don't, so you cry DEAD KIDS and leave it at this. It's intellectually dishonest and proves you have nothing rigorous to support your position. Refusing to entertain counterarguments because you are upset by dead kids is understandable from an emotional perspective but does not meet the rigor required for debate.

Nobody denies these casualties exist. They do. We deny fault for them. You have not made that connection. And, just like I am not responsible as a Subaru owner if a drunk driver kills kids in a Subaru, I am not at fault for those deaths by being a gun owner.

If you can ascribe fault, I'd be happy to hear it, but "WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN" is not itself an argument.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Dead children and people mourning isn't a fallacy, but keep being internet brained until it's someone YOU care about that ends up getting hurt in a mass shooting.

Can't believe we got people out here saying theres dead children is an appeal to emotion. You literally help make the NRA nd no gun restrictions movement look even more psychotic.

You don't seem to understand how logical fallacies work.

You are making an appeal to emotion. You are not just holding out an emotional situation and using that as justification for your position. You are using that as a reason to sidestep responses to avoid substantively engaging. If you had an argument, you could use it without deliberately evoking emotional overtures. But you don't, so you cry DEAD KIDS and leave it at this. It's intellectually dishonest and proves you have nothing rigorous to support your position. Refusing to entertain counterarguments because you are upset by dead kids is understandable from an emotional perspective but does not meet the rigor required for debate.

Nobody denies these casualties exist. They do. We deny fault for them. You have not made that connection. And, just like I am not responsible as a Subaru owner if a drunk driver kills kids in a Subaru, I am not at fault for those deaths by being a gun owner.

If you can ascribe fault, I'd be happy to hear it, but "WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN" is not itself an argument.

^ This.

Not to mention that dancing in the blood of dead children while using their still warm corpses for puppets to push an agenda doesn't look good for anybody, including you Urkennalaid.