Gun Control 2023 (V) - ATF Shenanigans, States Fight Back!

[Washington Resistance Army]

I literally misphrased it. Regardless, the amount of mass shootings HAS lowered in these countries, which is still the whole point. It's not moving the goalposts if the rate at which these countries have mass shootings drastically lowered after gun reform.

Have they? Data seems to suggest that they are roughly occurring the at the same rate. Take Australia for example in that regard.

If memory serves not very long ago there was a huge shootout in Australia involving multiple gunmen and cops that left something like 5 or 6 people dead. I'm pretty sure that was in December or so.

[Ryemarch]

So based on your logic, we should take your vehicle away because someone in Alaska committed vehicular manslaughter with a stolen vehicle.

I wish you would be intellectually honest with me. One act of vehicular manslaughter does not track against mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting.

If it was a common occurrence for people to deliberately drive into schools/nightclubs/what-have-you and mow down as many people as possible, I'd be in favor of tighter vehicle control.

Roads are a good example to apply to this situation. We know that roads give us more freedom - freedom of travel, much further, faster, and easier, than traveling overland.

We also know they have a cost. Tens of thousands of lives.

Now we could quite easily (and by easily, i mean 'legislatively') ban all roads and tear them up, and that would save tens of thousands of lives in car crashes. But we also know it would severely harm our freedom of travel.

So what do we do?

Paddy's example of equating vehicles to guns is better, frankly. Traffic accidents do not track at all to deliberate mass shootings, and excluding using them to threaten other people, guns don't help you commute to work. Not especially helpful with deliveries, either, unless we wander into the realm of t-shirt cannons, and I'll pick that thread up when someone deliberately t-shoots a group of people to death. The net loss of destroying all roads is incomparable to the net loss of gun control.

Buddy, I can see plain as day that you are using GVA and articles linking to it just in the link description without having to click it. Why the fuck would I waste my time digging through the rest of those links when you already are using a debunked source for at least half of your sources?

Since The Two Jerseys has gone silent, perhaps you'd be willing to link the FBI's numbers on mass shootings for 2023?

[Urkennalaid]

I'm curious, what is your source on how many mass shootings have happened? Genuinely, I want to see where your sources are.

As stated and linked earlier, the FBI. Who is also nice enough to break down homicides by state according to what type of weapon was used as well.

Ok, can I have the specific link to the page from the FBI?

[Paddy O Fernature]

Have they? Data seems to suggest that they are roughly occurring the at the same rate. Take Australia for example in that regard.

If memory serves not very long ago there was a huge shootout in Australia involving multiple gunmen and cops that left something like 5 or 6 people dead. I'm pretty sure that was in December or so.

Indeed, think this is what you are thinking of?

[Paddy O Fernature]

As stated and linked earlier, the FBI. Who is also nice enough to break down homicides by state according to what type of weapon was used as well.

Ok, can I have the specific link to the page from the FBI?

Table 20 is what you are looking for. You can search it on their main page as it's publicly available.

[Urkennalaid]

Ok, can I have the specific link to the page from the FBI?

Table 20 is what you are looking for. You can search it on their main page as it's publicly available.

Why can't you give me the specific link?

[Urkennalaid]

Have they? Data seems to suggest that they are roughly occurring the at the same rate. Take Australia for example in that regard.

If memory serves not very long ago there was a huge shootout in Australia involving multiple gunmen and cops that left something like 5 or 6 people dead. I'm pretty sure that was in December or so.

Again, the rate at which these shootings have happened is incredibly smaller than compared to America.

[Paddy O Fernature]

I wish you would be intellectually honest with me. One act of vehicular manslaughter does not track against mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting.

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

[Urkennalaid]

I wish you would be intellectually honest with me. One act of vehicular manslaughter does not track against mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting.

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You do realize we have regulations on vehicles right? And cars weren't made with the intent to kill or cause harm.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Table 20 is what you are looking for. You can search it on their main page as it's publicly available.

Why can't you give me the specific link?

Because if I was forced to click 4 bullshit GVA links because you lied, you can go to their website and take the time to search it yourself as recompense.

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You do realize we have regulations on vehicles right? And cars weren't made with the intent to kill or cause harm.

And yet they harm more people then guns do.

How interesting....

[Juansonia]

Table 20 is what you are looking for. You can search it on their main page as it's publicly available.

Why can't you give me the specific link?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-20
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 0.pdf/view
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 1.pdf/view

first source is the one Paddy mentioned. The next two are pdfs about active shooter incidents.

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You do realize we have regulations on vehicles right?

Nowhere near as much as we have on guns (at least when comparing my state to itself).

[The Two Jerseys]

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You do realize we have regulations on vehicles right?

Yet unlike guns, I can go to the dealer, hand over a wad of cash, and be handed the keys no questions asked...

And cars weren't made with the intent to kill or cause harm.

So the objects "made" to kill are actually less dangerous, yet you think guns are the problem...

[Ryemarch]

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do.

I forgot no such thing. It hadn't come up.

Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You. Behold:

So based on your logic, we should take your vehicle away because someone in Alaska committed vehicular manslaughter with a stolen vehicle.

You equated the many, many mass shootings in the US to the damage caused by one (1) vehicle in Alaska, and when I called you on it you tried to move the goalposts.

Are you trolling?

[Washington Resistance Army]

If memory serves not very long ago there was a huge shootout in Australia involving multiple gunmen and cops that left something like 5 or 6 people dead. I'm pretty sure that was in December or so.

Again, the rate at which these shootings have happened is incredibly smaller than compared to America.

They always were smaller than America, both before and after their gun laws were passed. If nothing else the Anglosphere seems to have done a decent job making people still view each other as people even when they disagree, unlike us. Though that does seem to slipping away in the UK at least.

[American Legionaries]

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do. Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You do realize we have regulations on vehicles right? And cars weren't made with the intent to kill or cause harm.

Guns are far more strictly regulated than automobiles.

[Ryemarch]

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-20
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 0.pdf/view
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 1.pdf/view

first source is the one Paddy mentioned. The next two are pdfs about active shooter incidents.

I give sources about shootings in 2023.
I get told those don't count; only the FBI counts.
I ask for the FBI's numbers for 2023.
What's delivered is the FBI's numbers for 2019.

This is bad comedy.

[Caurus]

You can keep saying "appeal to emotion" when talking about dead children, I don't care. You can say how GVA is biased all you want, you can cry about how every source on mass shootings is biased and wrong, I literally do not care anymore. I will support gun reform, and I don't care how much you cry about your rights being restricted.

Also, mass shootings in European countries did stop once gun reform was made. Mass shootings is a uniquely American problem nowadays because EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IMPLEMENTED REFORMS BUT AMERICA REFUSES TO DO SO. Also, comparing cars and guns is always just a funny thing cause it's not even remotely comparable. Vehicles weren't made with the purpose to kill, and vehicles in AMerica have MORE REGULATIONS THAN GUNS DO.

Just a cursory search for "Mass Shootings in Europe", this was the first result:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ma ... 023-05-05/
Also worth noting is that these shootings do not fall into the same category of reporting as American mass shootings do because these were massacre shootings without underlying criminal activity. I'd be more than willing to bet that, if there was a Gun Violence Archive for Europe, the shooting rates would be much higher, because that's all the GVA does. It just records any incident where 4 or more people are shot, not killed.
When you filter out for "gang activity in Europe", you do actually start to see reports in homicide rates increasing, particularly in Sweden:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... port-finds

As for restrictions and regulations, a person who has previously been committed to a mental institution or has sought psychiatric help can still own a car. A person can buy a car without any background check and can legally buy a car anywhere and have it shipped right to their front door. A Class D license and insurance is all that is required to own and operate any class of car you want, from a smart car to a Ford F-450 Super Duty. There is no limitation on the range or mileage of a gas tank. In no state do you have to be finger printed to get a Class D license. You only need a license to use public roads in the first place. And, as for whether or not a car was designed to kill, the point is moot as we have been shown in Nice, Waukesha, Brownsville, and many others. Firearms are substantially more regulated, at the state, local, and federal levels, than automobiles.

Look, I'll admit it, I'm not entirely opposed to every gun control proposal. In theory, I do support training and permitting requirements, red flag laws, and safe storage laws, but I am more concerned that any implementation of these laws will be inherently corrupted by political agents acting, not according to their duty, but to their own beliefs. In theory, requiring that voters have some basic political competency is a good idea. In practice, those laws were used to disenfranchise millions of good and decent people solely for their immutable characteristics. The idea that political agents could deny other rights, firearms related or not, should be a top concern of government and any regulation proposed must be inoculated exactly against that possibility. We've already seen the lengths to which bad actors will abuse regulations or their positions to enforce their own viewpoints upon the world. I am reminded of, specifically, the marriage clerk in Kentucky who refused to certify gay marriages following the Obergefell decision. What is to stop someone from denying an adult of sound mind and good character a permit to own a firearm under such a system? From my understanding, that is largely what the Bruen decision was about. Laws were enacted with the expressed purpose of protecting the community, but in reality, they were abused by ideologues. This mindset of "I don't care how much you cry about your rights being restricted" is exactly what leads to that kind of abuse and, to be quite honest, it is why nothing is going to change.


(edit: I apologize for the accusation of dishonesty or ignorance, "Either you're lying or you're ignorant", it was uncalled for. I have removed it from the first paragraph.)

[Washington Resistance Army]

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-20
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 0.pdf/view
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 1.pdf/view

first source is the one Paddy mentioned. The next two are pdfs about active shooter incidents.

I give sources about shootings in 2023.
I get told those don't count; only the FBI counts.
I ask for the FBI's numbers for 2023.
What's delivered is the FBI's numbers for 2019.

This is bad comedy.

If FBI works like most law enforcement does then they don't publish full numbers until the following year so 2023 wouldn't be available yet. 2022 would be the most recent.

[American Legionaries]

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-20
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 0.pdf/view
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/act ... 1.pdf/view

first source is the one Paddy mentioned. The next two are pdfs about active shooter incidents.

I give sources about shootings in 2023.
I get told those don't count; only the FBI counts.
I ask for the FBI's numbers for 2023.
What's delivered is the FBI's numbers for 2019.

This is bad comedy.

You do understand that 2023 isn't over yet, right?

[Paddy O Fernature]

Except that you conveniently forget that vehicles harm more people in the US each year then guns do.

I forgot no such thing. It hadn't come up.

Now who's not being intellectually honest......

You. Behold:

So based on your logic, we should take your vehicle away because someone in Alaska committed vehicular manslaughter with a stolen vehicle.

You equated the many, many mass shootings in the US to the damage caused by one (1) vehicle in Alaska, and when I called you on it you tried to move the goalposts.

Are you trolling?

I'm using an example of a person causing a accident with a stolen vehicle to justify taking away a (specifically your) vehicle. Nowhere in any of that hypothetical example did I even remotely advocate for taking away everyone's vehicles based upon a single incident.

Seriously, at least try to comprehend what people are saying before you hit the respond button.

[Ryemarch]

If FBI works like most law enforcement does then they don't publish full numbers until the following year so 2023 wouldn't be available yet. 2022 would be the most recent.

Mervelous! So my sources are dismissed out of hand, and the sources of the people I'm arguing with don't exist yet! Delightful!

You do understand that 2023 isn't over yet, right?

You do understand that my sources tracked the mass shootings in 2023 to date, right?

[Ryemarch]

*snip*

Okay, so you're trolling. Gotcha.

[Paddy O Fernature]

I give sources about shootings in 2023.
I get told those don't count; only the FBI counts.
I ask for the FBI's numbers for 2023.
What's delivered is the FBI's numbers for 2019.

This is bad comedy.

If FBI works like most law enforcement does then they don't publish full numbers until the following year so 2023 wouldn't be available yet. 2022 would be the most recent.

Not to mention the Feds are usually a year or two behind due to data reporting and processing from across the US, which is understandable especially considering Covid was a thing that slowed alot of shit down.

[Galloism]

England has had 3 mass shootings in the past 2 years.

...3 MASS SHOOTINGS??? IN THE PAST 2 YEARS? AND YOU'RE USING THIS TO PROVE THAT GUN REFORM DOESN'T WORK?

WE HAD 647 MASS SHOOTINGS LAST YEAR, AND 192 THIS YEAR! You literally unironically proved my point that gun reform works, fucking thank you. You tried to make a pro-gun argument but didn't realize how much the rate of mass shootings go down when guns are regulated. Holy shit I can't believe you unironically tried posting that as an "own" against my point.

Here's a question for you: how many mass shootings did England have before they went all crazy on guns?

[The Two Jerseys]

I give sources about shootings in 2023.
I get told those don't count; only the FBI counts.
I ask for the FBI's numbers for 2023.
What's delivered is the FBI's numbers for 2019.

This is bad comedy.

If FBI works like most law enforcement does then they don't publish full numbers until the following year so 2023 wouldn't be available yet. 2022 would be the most recent.

Yes, they like getting the statistics correct, not willy-nilly lumping in shit like gang violence and airsoft shootings with actual mass shootings...