Should Stalin be taught by schools to be a hero?

[Picairn]

Was there a grand strategic decision or thing he developed beyond 'hardcore winter and sending millions of soldiers into the meatgrinder until he eroded the German advance'?

Again, sort of stunned you haven't learned this stuff in school, but part of his contribution was things like 'giving every other soldier a rifle where the other guy was supposed to pick up the rifle of the first guy after he was killed' and 'shooting anyone who tried to retreat.' So even though Russia was a major contributor to turning the tide of the war, he was still characteristically a giant a-hole about it. And he initially wanted no part of it, he had signed a non-aggression pact with Germany until Germany got high on its own supply and thought they could take Russia as well. So he didn't heroically jump in to save the Allies, he got screwed and went ham on Germany in retaliation.

But then I'm piecing this together from the shit I learned in school. I'm not a big war history guy so I haven't done much 'reading more about it' outside the occasional WWII documentary as long as it's about cool shit like the Night Witches.

Since others have addressed the "Soviet horde and winter" myth, I'll add that "shooting anyone who tried to retreat" is grossly exaggerated. True, NKVD blocking detachments were formed during the desperate days of Barbarossa and positioned themselves behind frontline millitary units to enforce discipline, but they didn't brazenly shoot anyone who tried to retreat. Rather, the most common method was to arrest them and later put them in penal battalions or in front of a military tribunal. By October 1942 regular blocking detachments have fallen out of fashion and Stalin officially disbanded them in October 1944.

[Khurkhogur]

Also, another thing to consider with the NKVD orders to shoot deserters is that in the roughest moments of the war, thousands and thousands of Soviet citizens (be they Russian, Ukrainian, Chechen or otherwise) were defecting to the Germans. If there was a deserter, it would be pretty reasonable to expect that he'd be going to the enemy side.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I'm sorry but disowning the first several thousand years of human history because it's not post-war liberal democracy isn't a serious intellectual position, it's more of a neurosis. You should be open to the idea that civilization develops over time and that the particulars of organizing it are highly dependent on circumstance.

You know I'm not religious. Consequently I cannot accept the argument that military dictatorships that hold their own populace in contempt are totally fine and a good way to organise a society just because heaven approves of the dictators in question, and that's a description that covers most premodern governments right there.

If you feel differently, well, I will be very resistant to attempts by people like you to put your beliefs into practice. I like being a free citizen with political rights.

Civilisations, as you say, develop. So why should we hang on to outdated rubbish from the distant past?

[Punished UMN]

I'm sorry but disowning the first several thousand years of human history because it's not post-war liberal democracy isn't a serious intellectual position, it's more of a neurosis. You should be open to the idea that civilization develops over time and that the particulars of organizing it are highly dependent on circumstance.

You know I'm not religious. Consequently I cannot accept the argument that military dictatorships that hold their own populace in contempt are totally fine and a good way to organise a society just because heaven approves of the dictators in question, and that's a description that covers most premodern governments right there.

If you feel differently, well, I will be very resistant to attempts by people like you to put your beliefs into practice. I like being a free citizen with political rights.

Civilisations, as you say, develop. So why should we hang on to outdated rubbish from the distant past?

I'm not saying we should literally be ruled by bronze age god-kings today, I am saying that the development of states passed through a series of development to arrive at modern liberal states, and that it is only due to the developments of those prior forms of states, that a democratic polity is possible.

[Adamede]

Let’s see now then.

He sent millions of his own people into the Gulag system, many who died there. Many of them were political prisoners.

He purged the officer class of his own military, crippling its capabilities severely.

He either caused the Holodomor, or caused it to he significantly worse downswing on how you want to look at it. Fact of the matter is that many of the regions affected which had millions starve to death were still growing and exporting food.

He allied with the Nazis to invade and divide Poland. He annexed Bessarabia from Romania, he invaded and annexed the Baltics, he started a war with Finland to annex Karelia.

He refused to believe intelligence that the Germans were going to invade the Soviet Union. When the Germans did invade he decided to go sulk in his room instead of actually lead the nation in the first few days.

His military still was suffering from the aftershocks of the purge and was forced to retreat from the Germans. It would rake great loss of life to reverse this.

He knew that Beria was raping women and young girls and did nothing about it. He knew that his soldiers were raping millions of women and girls in Eastern Europe, he not only didnt stop it he defended it.

Tell me are those the actions if a hero?

[ImperialRussia]

Let’s see now then.

He sent millions of his own people into the Gulag system, many who died there. Many of them were political prisoners.

He purged the officer class of his own military, crippling its capabilities severely.

He either caused the Holodomor, or caused it to he significantly worse downswing on how you want to look at it. Fact of the matter is that many of the regions affected which had millions starve to death were still growing and exporting food.

He allied with the Nazis to invade and divide Poland. He annexed Bessarabia from Romania, he invaded and annexed the Baltics, he started a war with Finland to annex Karelia.

He refused to believe intelligence that the Germans were going to invade the Soviet Union. When the Germans did invade he decided to go sulk in his room instead of actually lead the nation in the first few days.

His military still was suffering from the aftershocks of the purge and was forced to retreat from the Germans. It would rake great loss of life to reverse this.

He knew that Beria was raping women and young girls and did nothing about it. He knew that his soldiers were raping millions of women and girls in Eastern Europe, he not only didnt stop it he defended it.

Tell me are those the actions if a hero?

That’s what you call a war hero

[Indecent Anime Empire]

Was Genghis Khan a hero? If no, then you have your answer; if yes, you got yourself a deeper hole to dig out of.

[Transsibiria]

I'm sorry but disowning the first several thousand years of human history because it's not post-war liberal democracy isn't a serious intellectual position, it's more of a neurosis. You should be open to the idea that civilization develops over time and that the particulars of organizing it are highly dependent on circumstance.

You know I'm not religious. Consequently I cannot accept the argument that military dictatorships that hold their own populace in contempt are totally fine and a good way to organise a society just because heaven approves of the dictators in question, and that's a description that covers most premodern governments right there.

If you feel differently, well, I will be very resistant to attempts by people like you to put your beliefs into practice. I like being a free citizen with political rights.

Civilisations, as you say, develop. So why should we hang on to outdated rubbish from the distant past?

Your complete ignorance of history is completly detached from reality however.

Please understand that people will take your position not as very serious.

[Rakhalia]

Was Genghis Khan a hero? If no, then you have your answer; if yes, you got yourself a deeper hole to dig out of.

That's laying on the "Soviet eastern asiatic hordes" rhetoric a bit thick, eh?

[Rakhalia]

Civilisations, as you say, develop. So why should we hang on to outdated rubbish from the distant past?

local poster doesn't know that the present is built on top of the past, many such cases

[Theodores Tomfooleries]

You're using a fucking Ukrainian government source as if though that is in any way independent and non-biased

Haven't seen any from you yet?

Me pointing out that you should not use sources from the Ukrainian government in regards to the holodomor does not require a source. What it does require however is common sense.

[Theodores Tomfooleries]

Friendly reminder that even if Kazakhstan suffered the least of the effects of the Holodomor while Ukraine got most of the aid, that's still saying that Kazakhstan was neglected by Stalin and got little aid from him.

Ukraine got aid? All i've seen is that the Soviets caused it, denied its existence, covered it up, and used it as a tool to suppress Ukrainian identity and culture.

If it was intended to "suppress and destroy" Ukrainian identity and culture then it failed miserably. Millions of deaths and yet Ukrainian culture and language under Stalin was the strongest it had ever been due to the Tsarist government no longer being there to oppress and censor Ukrainian culture and literature. Of course it was stronger later in the Union, after Stalin's death- but at the time Ukrainian identity had never been stronger.

[Theodores Tomfooleries]

I'm sorry but disowning the first several thousand years of human history because it's not post-war liberal democracy isn't a serious intellectual position, it's more of a neurosis. You should be open to the idea that civilization develops over time and that the particulars of organizing it are highly dependent on circumstance.

You know I'm not religious. Consequently I cannot accept the argument that military dictatorships that hold their own populace in contempt are totally fine and a good way to organise a society just because heaven approves of the dictators in question, and that's a description that covers most premodern governments right there.

If you feel differently, well, I will be very resistant to attempts by people like you to put your beliefs into practice. I like being a free citizen with political rights.

Civilisations, as you say, develop. So why should we hang on to outdated rubbish from the distant past?

What the fuck does religion have to do with anything in that first post. Liberal democracy is also awful and so is your bourgeois' proto-fascist sham of an ideology.

[Untecna]

Haven't seen any from you yet?

Me pointing out that you should not use sources from the Ukrainian government in regards to the holodomor does not require a source. What it does require however is common sense.

As if not talking to victims of systematic, politically-founded oppression is common sense. Which it isn't.

Sources from the USSR and tankies are going to say that nothing happened. Everyone else recognizes the actual history of the situation. So I'm sorry that you can't fathom to use reason but it ain't exactly my problem.

[-The United States]

I don't care about how Stalin is taught.

Russia will probably portray him mostly positively, as he did a lot of good for their country, despite his bad deeds.

Other nations will do the opposite.

Some will be objective.

That said; who cares? The US itself has done many terrible things. Despite that, patriotism is important, and if that means omitting to mention some abuses or mistakes, or downplaying them, or actually mentioning them but stating their necessity, then it's fine by me.

[Duvniask]

Ukraine got aid? All i've seen is that the Soviets caused it, denied its existence, covered it up, and used it as a tool to suppress Ukrainian identity and culture.

If it was intended to "suppress and destroy" Ukrainian identity and culture then it failed miserably. Millions of deaths and yet Ukrainian culture and language under Stalin was the strongest it had ever been due to the Tsarist government no longer being there to oppress and censor Ukrainian culture and literature. Of course it was stronger later in the Union, after Stalin's death- but at the time Ukrainian identity had never been stronger.

Press X to doubt

Stalin oversaw the end of Ukrainization policies and Korenizatsiia in general in the 1930s, the re-institution of Russification policies, and purge of Ukrainian intellectuals and cultural figures, hence the term "Executed Renaissance".

[ImperialRussia]

Was Genghis Khan a hero? If no, then you have your answer; if yes, you got yourself a deeper hole to dig out of.

Another War Hero

[Adamede]

Let’s see now then.

He sent millions of his own people into the Gulag system, many who died there. Many of them were political prisoners.

He purged the officer class of his own military, crippling its capabilities severely.

He either caused the Holodomor, or caused it to he significantly worse downswing on how you want to look at it. Fact of the matter is that many of the regions affected which had millions starve to death were still growing and exporting food.

He allied with the Nazis to invade and divide Poland. He annexed Bessarabia from Romania, he invaded and annexed the Baltics, he started a war with Finland to annex Karelia.

He refused to believe intelligence that the Germans were going to invade the Soviet Union. When the Germans did invade he decided to go sulk in his room instead of actually lead the nation in the first few days.

His military still was suffering from the aftershocks of the purge and was forced to retreat from the Germans. It would rake great loss of life to reverse this.

He knew that Beria was raping women and young girls and did nothing about it. He knew that his soldiers were raping millions of women and girls in Eastern Europe, he not only didnt stop it he defended it.

Tell me are those the actions if a hero?

That’s what you call a war hero

Needlessly getting millions of his own people killed makes you a war hero now?

[Punished UMN]

I think when talking about Stalin, even though I don't view him favorably, I think many protest his crimes more than is congruent with many of our broader views of history. If you think that people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, men who presided over a far more violent and brutal police state than Stalin did, were heroes or even men who did more good than bad for their country, then you have to take a similar view of Stalin.

Fwiw, I don't think any of the three are worthy of veneration. Certainly an objective historical analysis. The Soviet Union and much of the post-Soviet world have already rejected Stalin as the vile and brutal dictator who hampered the development of the country he was, only hardliners still hold to the myth of Stalin.

[ImperialRussia]

That’s what you call a war hero

Needlessly getting millions of his own people killed makes you a war hero now?

A war hero in a civil war

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

I think when talking about Stalin, even though I don't view him favorably, I think many protest his crimes more than is congruent with many of our broader views of history. If you think that people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, men who presided over a far more violent and brutal police state than Stalin did, were heroes or even men who did more good than bad for their country, then you have to take a similar view of Stalin.

Fwiw, I don't think any of the three are worthy of veneration. Certainly an objective historical analysis. The Soviet Union and much of the post-Soviet world have already rejected Stalin as the vile and brutal dictator who hampered the development of the country he was, only hardliners still hold to the myth of Stalin.

While I agree that celebrating Washington or Jefferson takes a hardy helping of nuance and isn't as simple as saying "inventors of america and freedom and the red white and blue", how exactly were either leader's (really quite brief) rule of America anywhere near as totalitarian and Stalin's USSR? It was the turn of the 19th century, they didn't really have the resources to support police states, especially since Police weren't a thing in America until 1844, when the NYPD was founded. They didn't have an NKVD to remove political dissidents, they barely had control of their own country. I just don't see how either could've supported a dictatorship, even if either wanted it (which i kinda doubt)

[A m e n r i a]

Considering how the hammer and sickle is treated like the flag of Imperial Japan...yeah, that's not a good idea.

[Scots-Rhodesia]

the atrocities of Stalin, Churchill & other WW2 allies should be taught.

[Punished UMN]

I think when talking about Stalin, even though I don't view him favorably, I think many protest his crimes more than is congruent with many of our broader views of history. If you think that people like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson, men who presided over a far more violent and brutal police state than Stalin did, were heroes or even men who did more good than bad for their country, then you have to take a similar view of Stalin.

Fwiw, I don't think any of the three are worthy of veneration. Certainly an objective historical analysis. The Soviet Union and much of the post-Soviet world have already rejected Stalin as the vile and brutal dictator who hampered the development of the country he was, only hardliners still hold to the myth of Stalin.

While I agree that celebrating Washington or Jefferson takes a hardy helping of nuance and isn't as simple as saying "inventors of america and freedom and the red white and blue", how exactly were either leader's (really quite brief) rule of America anywhere near as totalitarian and Stalin's USSR? It was the turn of the 19th century, they didn't really have the resources to support police states, especially since Police weren't a thing in America until 1844, when the NYPD was founded. They didn't have an NKVD to remove political dissidents, they barely had control of their own country. I just don't see how either could've supported a dictatorship, even if either wanted it (which i kinda doubt)

A third of the population lived in slavery with no rights, able to be killed at the whim of owners or overseers with zero legal oversight, entire ethnicities were exterminated and forced off of land they lived in for centuries. Even at the height of Stalinist oppression, the USSR's slave labor force was comparatively tiny to the first 100 years of the US. The early US, especially the South, was a slave society, its entire economy was dependent on extensive slave labor and its society was based around this.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

While I agree that celebrating Washington or Jefferson takes a hardy helping of nuance and isn't as simple as saying "inventors of america and freedom and the red white and blue", how exactly were either leader's (really quite brief) rule of America anywhere near as totalitarian and Stalin's USSR? It was the turn of the 19th century, they didn't really have the resources to support police states, especially since Police weren't a thing in America until 1844, when the NYPD was founded. They didn't have an NKVD to remove political dissidents, they barely had control of their own country. I just don't see how either could've supported a dictatorship, even if either wanted it (which i kinda doubt)

A third of the population lived in slavery with no rights, able to be killed at the whim of owners or overseers with zero legal oversight, entire ethnicities were exterminated and forced off of land they lived in for centuries. Even at the height of Stalinist oppression, the USSR's slave labor force was comparatively tiny to the first 100 years of the US. The early US, especially the South, was a slave society, its entire economy was dependent on extensive slave labor and its society was based around this.

Oh, I assumed we were talking about the governments of these leaders. Absolutely, the U.S. as a nation, and its people, were worse than the USSR, at that time.