NationStates

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2023 1:08 pm**

Shrillland wrote:
Senkaku wrote:I mean, the systematic acceptance of bribes in exchange for relaxation of building codes and the funneling of the resulting money into political priorities of his party seem pretty bad, as does mandating turning on mosque loudspeakers while rescuers are trying to dig people out of the rubble or disabling social networks used for emergency communication or bombarding nearby regions also suffering from the disaster. The earthquake was certainly destructive, but it was not destructive enough that it should have left an entire region basically flattened in a stable upper-middle-income country with a modern industrial base. "Genocide" may be hyperbole or off the mark, but all disasters with large death tolls are in part man-made as well, and the role played by Erdogan and the AKP here certainly seems to be both creator and exacerbator of the situation.

Well, things might change soon. This isn't the place for too general a political debate, but I will say just this and then I'm done.

Erdogan's actually quite nervous, and mismanagement like what we're seeing doesn't really help him in AKP's and MHP's heartlands. The election's coming up in May(yes, I'll have a thread for it sometime in March if somebody else doesn't do it before then), and Erdogan, for the first time in a long time, actually has a serious shot at losing. He's only ahead of the CHP/Iyi Bloc by five points, and that may go down further depending on disaster response and who the CHP/Iyi group chooses.

Well, the state of emergency seems likely to give him a boost (or at least the chance to do some serious ratfucking to lay the groundwork). It's definitely clear he's nervous with the statements acknowledging mismanagement, but so far the central government's role in the disaster response is looking mixed at best-- which given their role in creating contributing factors to the disaster in the first place, is not where they need to be if they hope to maintain public legitimacy.

Posted: **Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:35 pm**

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Scots-Rhodesia wrote:Political Islam and Islam are not the same thing
Finally someone understood me, just like that, political Islam is not a religion but a crime. There are Muslims who live their religion according to the rules of the secular system, and they must be protected within the framework of "freedom of belief".

Bahrimontagn wrote:
While that is true, It is common for Hakinda to use any excuse to bash religion.
As a humanist who follows the path of reason and science, I choose the path of modernity. Turkish enemies suddenly became ardent defenders of erdoganism. The Independence Court will be re-established, that trial will be held !

It is not a crime to follow an ideology, including political Islam, unless you are suggesting replacing Islamist Authoritarianism with Secular Authoritarianism.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:27 am**

Turkey is reportedly expelling Syrian refugees from refugee camps, so it can use the camps as emergency accommodation for Turks who's homes were destroyed in the earthquake.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:33 am**

Wembridge wrote:Turkey is reportedly expelling Syrian refugees from refugee camps, so it can use the camps as emergency accommodation for Turks who's homes were destroyed in the earthquake.

People will complain, but so what?

Turkey is putting it's own people first.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:16 am**

Wembridge wrote:Turkey is reportedly expelling Syrian refugees from refugee camps, so it can use the camps as emergency accommodation for Turks who's homes were destroyed in the earthquake.

And where shall the now-homeless refugees go to?

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:18 am**

The death toll is genuinely insane now.

Wembridge wrote:Turkey is reportedly expelling Syrian refugees from refugee camps, so it can use the camps as emergency accommodation for Turks who's homes were destroyed in the earthquake.

Congratulations, Erdogan, you now have caused a great amount of people to be expelled from camps and roam your country, exacerbating the humanitarian crisis. Could he not have built more camps?

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:20 am**

https://indianexpress.com/article/trend ... y-8436094/

Dog rescued from rubble after more than 60 hours in quake-hit Turkey

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 2:25 pm**

Earthquakes don't kill, but ignorance does. We kemalists will give the necessary punishment to these genociders. 10 of my cousin's friends died. My friends' cousins are dead. We will hold accountable those responsible ! I know that the conscience of the genocidal dictator and his supporters does not ache.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:30 pm**

-The United States wrote:
Wembridge wrote:Turkey is reportedly expelling Syrian refugees from refugee camps, so it can use the camps as emergency accommodation for Turks who's homes were destroyed in the earthquake.

People will complain, but so what?

Turkey is putting it's own people first.

It is absolutely fucking not. Creating a humanitarian crisis so Erdogan can splurge more money on anything but his “own people” all while international aid pays for preventable deaths and damages is just sociopathy, not caring for the Turkish nation, but authoritarian simps like yourself seem to have trouble understanding the difference.

Posted: **Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:19 pm**

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Earthquakes don't kill, but ignorance does. We kemalists will give the necessary punishment to these genociders. 10 of my cousin's friends died. My friends' cousins are dead. We will hold accountable those responsible ! I know that the conscience of the genocidal dictator and his supporters does not ache.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aan-NXXZKqc

It was a natural disaster, how is Erdogan responsible? The reason so many people died was because it happened late at night, when people were at home and not out. So much for the "Science and Reason" of you "Kemalists."

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:13 am**

In case anybody hasn't checked BBC News for a few hours, 15 homes, just three survivors - the community lost under one Turkish apartment block is exactly the same article as Ceyda was 19 when the quake destroyed her building – the tragic story of a lost community. The headline was changed under cover of dark this afternoon.

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2023 10:36 am**

Bahrimontagn wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Earthquakes don't kill, but ignorance does. We kemalists will give the necessary punishment to these genociders. 10 of my cousin's friends died. My friends' cousins are dead. We will hold accountable those responsible ! I know that the conscience of the genocidal dictator and his supporters does not ache.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aan-NXXZKqc

It was a natural disaster, how is Erdogan responsible? The reason so many people died was because it happened late at night, when people were at home and not out. So much for the "Science and Reason" of you "Kemalists."

The question is where all the money that was meant for earthquake preparedness had gone? Is this another case of stealing public funds for mega yachts in Cyprus, like what Russia's ogliarchs did?

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 11:38 am**

As death toll rises past 33,000, Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag announces probe into 131 contractors who built residential buildings in the area

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:03 pm**

Shrillland wrote:As death toll rises past 33,000, Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag announces probe into 131 contractors who built residential buildings in the area

Apparently, that makes it the worst Turkish earthquake in modern history. The fact is, there’s a difference between a leader in a time of crisis and a leader who created a crisis. No amount of scapegoating or symbolic action is going to change who presided over the situation.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:14 am**

Bahrimontagn wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Earthquakes don't kill, but ignorance does. We kemalists will give the necessary punishment to these genociders. 10 of my cousin's friends died. My friends' cousins are dead. We will hold accountable those responsible ! I know that the conscience of the genocidal dictator and his supporters does not ache.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aan-NXXZKqc

It was a natural disaster, how is Erdogan responsible? The reason so many people died was because it happened late at night, when people were at home and not out. So much for the "Science and Reason" of you "Kemalists."

Where are my earthquake taxes ? Where is the 128 billion dollars stolen from the Turkish Nation ?

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:34 pm**

El Lazaro wrote:
Shrillland wrote:As death toll rises past 33,000, Turkish Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag announces probe into 131 contractors who built residential buildings in the area

Apparently, that makes it the worst Turkish earthquake in modern history. The fact is, there’s a difference between a leader in a time of crisis and a leader who created a crisis. No amount of scapegoating or symbolic action is going to change who presided over the situation.

CHP has actually been on a slow rise for a while, and I think that the earthquake is going to cost Erdogan the presidency, that is, if he opts not to rig the elections.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:37 pm**

Minoa wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:Apparently, that makes it the worst Turkish earthquake in modern history. The fact is, there’s a difference between a leader in a time of crisis and a leader who created a crisis. No amount of scapegoating or symbolic action is going to change who presided over the situation.

CHP has actually been on a slow rise for a while, and I think that the earthquake is going to cost Erdogan the presidency, that is, if he opts not to rig the elections.

They've been on the rise because the economy's been tanking and the Lira's inflated like a balloon before the war made it cool.

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:47 am**

Minoa wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:Apparently, that makes it the worst Turkish earthquake in modern history. The fact is, there’s a difference between a leader in a time of crisis and a leader who created a crisis. No amount of scapegoating or symbolic action is going to change who presided over the situation.

CHP has actually been on a slow rise for a while, and I think that the earthquake is going to cost Erdogan the presidency, that is, if he opts not to rig the elections.

I wish the Republican People's Party was in power, but I would not vote for the Republican People's Party. The cultural concerns of the Turkish Nation do not concern me. I will not vote for any leader who has a close relationship with political Islam and terrorism. I will vote for the social democrats who are on the left of the centre, following Atatürk's line.

Shrillland wrote:
Minoa wrote:CHP has actually been on a slow rise for a while, and I think that the earthquake is going to cost Erdogan the presidency, that is, if he opts not to rig the elections.

They've been on the rise because the economy's been tanking and the Lira's inflated like a balloon before the war made it cool.

The vote of the Republican People's Party is 25% again

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:43 am**

"Ovgun Ahmet Ercan, an earthquake expert, estimates that 180,000 people or more may be trapped under the rubble, nearly all of them dead.”

Bahrimontagn wrote:It was a natural disaster, how is Erdogan responsible? The reason so many people died was because it happened late at night, when people were at home and not out. So much for the "Science and Reason" of you "Kemalists."

You may have seen clips of him bragging about building more housing back in 2019 by way of letting developers build in contravention of Turkish building codes, the strict and proper enforcement of which would've saved tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of lives, at any time of the day.

Instead, you have a motherfucking authoritarian swimming in the money of all those he has killed, coasting on his path to another undeserved term of office, while stifling criticism of his policies before and actions after these earthquakes, marking community and NGO-led efforts as the work of his own administration...

... and promising to build more houses, because come the fuck on, people only die once, right?

Posted: **Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:31 pm**

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:
Minoa wrote:CHP has actually been on a slow rise for a while, and I think that the earthquake is going to cost Erdogan the presidency, that is, if he opts not to rig the elections.
I wish the Republican People's Party was in power, but I would not vote for the Republican People's Party. The cultural concerns of the Turkish Nation do not concern me. I will not vote for any leader who has a close relationship with political Islam and terrorism. I will vote for the social democrats who are on the left of the centre, following Atatürk's line.

Shrillland wrote:
They've been on the rise because the economy's been tanking and the Lira's inflated like a balloon before the war made it cool.
The vote of the Republican People's Party is 25% again

What basis do you have for accusing them of supporting Islamism and terrorism?

Posted: **Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:55 pm**

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 023-02-15/

Turkish police said they have arrested 78 people accused of creating fear and panic by "sharing provocative posts" about last week's earthquake on social media, adding 20 of them were being held in pre-trial detention.

The death toll in Turkey and Syria from the devastating earthquake has climbed above 41,000, and millions are in need of humanitarian aid.

Turkey's General Directorate of Security said it had identified 613 people accused of making provocative posts, and legal proceedings had been initiated against 293. Of this group, the chief prosecutor had ordered the arrest of 78.

Yeah...there are some out-of-order priorities here.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:40 am**

How building code spared one Turkish town from earthquake

A mayor in devastated Hatay province says his town escaped the destruction seen elsewhere thanks in part to enforcement of construction codes.
Andrew Wilks | February 16, 2023
ISTANBUL — Angry debate about Turkey’s poor housing standards has erupted since last week’s earthquakes. Amid the outrage, critics point to the town of Erzin as an example of how properly implemented building laws can prevent deaths.

Erzin lies in northern Hatay, which has suffered the greatest loss of life in the now 11 affected provinces, some 110 kilometers (68 miles) from the epicenter of the 7.8 magnitude quake that struck in the early hours of Feb. 6.

Yet not a single building collapsed in the district of 42,000 people and there have been zero fatalities.

Construction engineers and earthquake scientists have said the town’s escape is at least partly due to the strict enforcement of building regulations, although its location and geology also played a role.

Mayor Okkes Elmasoglu, who was elected in 2019, says he has followed the policy of his predecessors in refusing to allow building contractors to cut corners.

“For my part, I have a very clear conscience [because] we did not allow illegal construction in any way,” he said. “I have not compromised in any way on this issue but there were those who did.”

Elmasoglu said a “total change of mentality” is needed in Turkey so people will “no longer expect concessions from the state about illegal structures.” The country has seen a number of building amnesties — the last just before elections in 2018 — that allowed the owners of dangerous structures to pay a fine to avoid having to bring their buildings up to standard.

The town also lacks the high-rise apartment blocks that led to catastrophic loss of life in other areas. The tallest structures are six stories but most are no more than four, Elmasoglu said.

The mayor, who represents the opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) but was preceded in his role by a member of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), acknowledged that Erzin’s geology also played a part in protecting the town.

The town lies at the bottom of the western slopes of the Amanos mountains, which separate it from the nearest fault line 40 kilometers (25 miles) away. The town is also built on ground where the bedrock is close to the surface.

Geologist Naci Gorur said Turkey should aim to rebuild on sites similar to Erzin. “The geological structure, the tectonic position and the geological features of this region provide special protection from earthquakes,” he said.

The stark contrast between Erzin and the destruction in nearby towns and cities has served to highlight the slipshod building practices and a lack of regulatory oversight that compounded the loss of life.

Taner Yuzgec, president of the Chamber of Construction Engineers, told Al-Monitor that the problem is ubiquitous. “The housing amnesty has happened many times in Turkey, especially when elections are close,” he said. “We have always warned about these problems. We said it would be a disaster that amounts to a crime and the murder of people but we couldn’t make ourselves heard.”

Yuzgec said 65% of buildings in Turkey are considered at risk. In 2011 the government established a strategic plan to identify dangerous construction that should have been completed by 2017, leading to action to standardize or demolish faulty structures, he said. “Unfortunately, that wasn’t carried out.”

Speaking on Tuesday evening, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said 47,000 buildings had been destroyed or were so badly damaged that they need to be demolished. However, the Environment and Urbanization Ministry stated earlier that more than 50,500 buildings required urgent demolition.

The president said reconstruction would begin in March. “Our aim is to complete the construction of high quality and safe buildings in a year to meet the housing need in the entire earthquake zone,” he stated.

Despite regular deadly earthquakes — 41 people were killed in Elazig, eastern Turkey, three years ago and a few months earlier 116 died when a quake struck the western city of Izmir — few serious measures seem to have been taken to tackle unsafe housing.

“The main reason for this disaster, for the level of catastrophe, stems from building construction,” Yuzgec said. “Of course earthquakes are a natural disaster but we can help reduce the effects. In many cases this didn’t happen.”

Following the disaster, many residents described how business occupying the ground floors of apartment buildings had removed supporting columns to increase their floor space.

In Diyarbakir, the easternmost province in the disaster zone, a block of 32 apartments collapsed while three other blocks in the same complex remained upright. Locals claimed this difference was due to illegal alterations made by retail outlets on the ground floor.

“Everyone knows they cut the columns in the ground floor and there was a lawsuit filed against them four months before the earthquake,” said Veysi Buldu, who lost his uncle in the building.

Dozens of building contractors have been detained since the disaster, according to Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag. However, Yuzgec noted that no officials who approved unsafe buildings are facing legal action.

As for a more local source:
District suffers no loss in devastating quakes

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:30 am**

El Lazaro wrote:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/turkey-arrests-78-over-earthquake-social-media-posts-2023-02-15/
Turkish police said they have arrested 78 people accused of creating fear and panic by "sharing provocative posts" about last week's earthquake on social media, adding 20 of them were being held in pre-trial detention.

The death toll in Turkey and Syria from the devastating earthquake has climbed above 41,000, and millions are in need of humanitarian aid.

Turkey's General Directorate of Security said it had identified 613 people accused of making provocative posts, and legal proceedings had been initiated against 293. Of this group, the chief prosecutor had ordered the arrest of 78.

Yeah...there are some out-of-order priorities here.

This is, in my opinion, the hypocrisy of most of the populist right, like Erdogan and Putin: they claim to promote free speech, yet they cannot handle the criticism.

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2023 9:50 am**

https://www.cbsnews.com//news/christian ... arthquake/

Ghana soccer player Christian Atsu dies in Turkey earthquake

Posted: **Sun Feb 19, 2023 12:07 am**

Bahrimontagn wrote:It was a natural disaster, how is Erdogan responsible? "

Let's see, who promoted amnesties for violation to building codes?
Oh, look, it's our favourite President For Life! https://www.duvarenglish.com/2019-video ... ideo-61831

Article from 2019. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1QF1VU
Article from 2023. https://www.ft.com/content/6113a9d2-25d ... 50b1cff30c

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