Feminism and How I don't Care

[Callisdrun]

These things don't easily change, but they have changed. Not educating women used to be the intelligent thing to do. Now you'd be a fool. You can create incentive for the change.

What incentive, though? Different situations.

Plus, even today, women's education tends to be quite different to men's, just it's they choose it and not society, so the end result is quite similar. There will, of course, be exceptions. I'd hazard a guess that that's what got Bottle annoyed earlier - the idea that one size fits all when it comes to What Women Do.

Some people find their identities in their careers.

There are very few careers for which one can do that. The idea in itself sounds like it was promulgated by corporations as yet another swindle and way to make people feel better about all they were giving up for the company.

The "identity" thing may hold true for a doctor or composer, but certainly not the average Joe.

Women's education is different how? Females attended the same schools I did, were in the same classes, did the same assignments. Women have been present in all my college classes, including the upper division ones for my major.

My ladyfriend goes to another campus of the same university system I'm enrolled in. Her major is different, but given that, and the fact that she's going for a higher degree than I am, means that she'll probably end up earning more money than I will. The career she's planning on embarking on will probably be at least a significant part of her identity, something she's really interested in rather than "just a job."

[Trollgaard]

I doubt people who talk about deconstructing gender roles actually do that in real life to any great extent.

I'd love to do my part to deconstruct gender roles, but I don't recognise any boundaries between "masculine" and "feminine" activities -- so while enjoying "feminine" activities and the like might be a very good way to participate in the movement to eliminate such things altogether, I have no idea what a stereotypically "feminine" activity would be. Or a stereotypically "masculine" act, for that matter.

In life I have pretty much one or two interests and that's about it. One of them (by far the most important) is creation. Another is sarcasm and dark humour. A third is the natural world, in particular physics, geology, and hydrography. All are gender-neutral as far as I know. Sorry, Jordi & Bottle.

Stereotypically feminine role: Nurse
Stereotypically masculine role: Firefighter

[Central Slavia]

The problem with the stay-at-home father thing is that it's not something one can merely "change", as attitudes to it relate to what we find attractive in the opposite sex and, ideas of honour, reputation, and competition. Things not easily changed, and of course - be careful what you wish for.

The whole two-parents-working thing that we think of as normal these days is more often than not a response to economic necessity (this is our bright new future with flying cars that we were promised, I guess). After all, "having a career" is hardly some great thing to be desired as a life goal, as opposed to just a way to make money.

I don't see why a man couldn't be a stay-at-home father and "masculine" at the same time.

Just because one can take care of kids, cook and do household tasks doesn't make one any less of a man.

Because it just isn't manly to instead of sustaining your family making money just sitting at home?
See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.
I am OK with both working, that is often a necessity, but i personally would never stay at home like that, and i don't think much of people who do

[Bottle]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

[Central Slavia]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

[Jordaxia]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

[Vojvodina-Nihon]

Stereotypically feminine role: Nurse
Stereotypically masculine role: Firefighter

Hmm. I have no interest in being either one. I guess I'm non-stereotypical. Yay me?

Also, while I have no intention of ever having kids, if I changed my mind in the future, I'd almost certainly be the one staying at home taking care of them. I intend to work in the creative arts, which means I can work from home. My partner would be more likely to be the one working outside the home. (Since there's no way my meager income at present would be able to support more than one person.) I guess that's a possible contribution I could make to ending traditional gender roles. Not one I particularly want to make though, since permanent childfreeness appeals to me.

[Bottle]

One of the problems in our society, I think, is that while it's become more and more socially acceptable for mothers to have careers, it's still often not viewed as "normal" for fathers to be stay-at-home parents.

Husbands/fathers who stay home are often viewed as lazy or freeloading, or somehow less "manly" because they are not in the position of 'breadwinner.'

This is unacceptable to me, it's something that really needs to change if we're going to have an equal society. The mother being the breadwinner and the father being a stay-at-home parent needs to be socially acceptable if we are to have an equal society. The people I see who realize this usually are feminists. Those criticizing feminism often seem to cling to the idea that a husband's/father's place in the family structure is as "breadwinner," an idea I see as outdated.

I think it's kind of tragic that pay is so unequal in our society and further discourages fathers from being stay-at-home parents. The only reason my mother quit her job and stayed home while my father continued to work was because my dad made more money, due to the inequality of pay in our society. If they'd been paid the same amount, my dad probably would have quit and become a stay-at-home father, as he loved working on projects around the house and spending time with my sister and me when we were growing up.

I agree, but again, this is because women's work and "feminine" activites are viewed as inferior.

If you think that women who stay home with the kids are afforded much respect, think again. People may pay lipservice to the value of housewives sometimes, but the reality is that most women are now expected to contribute to their household income AND take care of most of the housework AND take care of most of the childcare, so women who are "merely" housewives get very little respect or recognition.

For me, it's not about fighting for better treatment of men who stay home with the kids, it's about making sure that caring for children and caring for the home is recognized for the immensely valuable service that it is...no matter who is doing it! It's about getting people to fucking recognize how much work goes into maintaining a household, whether you also have a job outside the home or not, and getting people to admit that all the boring shitwork that has to get done around the house really freaking adds up.

I completely agree with you about how important it is for families to choose their working/stay-at-home set up based on what is best for them rather than based on catering to some stupid gendered BS. Sometimes it's better for a family to have Mom stay home with the kids, and sometimes it's better if Dad does it, and sometimes it's best if both parents work, and sometimes there's two dads or two moms, and sometimes it's a set of grandparents raising their grandkids, and sometimes there are aunts or uncles or divorces or deaths in the family, and frankly life is too damn sort to worry about where the "cock" is sitting or any other such nonsense.

[Central Slavia]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

[Bottle]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

Feel free to support your theory. Good luck finding anthropological (let alone biological) data to back you up.

The "man work, woman stay at home" model is actually a very, very recent invention, and has only actually thrived in relatively rich places. Throughout all of human history, women have always worked, and it has only been a tiny minority of the very very wealthy who have had the luxury of keeping their womenfolks from working.

[Callisdrun]

The problem with the stay-at-home father thing is that it's not something one can merely "change", as attitudes to it relate to what we find attractive in the opposite sex and, ideas of honour, reputation, and competition. Things not easily changed, and of course - be careful what you wish for.

The whole two-parents-working thing that we think of as normal these days is more often than not a response to economic necessity (this is our bright new future with flying cars that we were promised, I guess). After all, "having a career" is hardly some great thing to be desired as a life goal, as opposed to just a way to make money.

I don't see why a man couldn't be a stay-at-home father and "masculine" at the same time.

Just because one can take care of kids, cook and do household tasks doesn't make one any less of a man.

Because it just isn't manly to instead of sustaining your family making money just sitting at home?
See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.
I am OK with both working, that is often a necessity, but i personally would never stay at home like that, and i don't think much of people who do

Being at home to take care of your family IS sustaining to them.

It's not really relevant to the family's needs what equipment down south the person who brings in money has. The money isn't changed by the presence or absence of a penis or vulva on the person earning it.

Are you arguing that stay-at-home mothers are "just sitting at home" and lazy? Why is it "proper" when a woman does it and "lazy" when a man does it?

Cooking, cleaning, raising children, fixing things around the house, taking care of the yard if there is one, taking care of family affairs is "just sitting at home?"

If stay-at-home parents are "just sitting at home," then by your logic, both parents should work full time and leave the children to fend for themselves.

[Bottle]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

Given that the overwhelming majority of families in my country could not survive on a single income from a male provider, I'd say your way pretty clearly doesn't work.

[Jordaxia]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

If it worked, why are we having this discussion? Evidently many people feel it does not. What grounds for criteria do you have that this system works well?

[Kiskaanak]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

When was the last time you hunted prey and brought it to the table then?

[Manahakatouki]

Hey what about the rights of men eh? Shouldn't we be treated equal too! JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED ON A CHINA PLATE!

[Bottle]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

If it worked, why are we having this discussion? Evidently many people feel it does not. What grounds for criteria do you have that this system works well?

In order to prove that sexism "works", you merely have to:

-Ignore all the men and women who are made profoundly unhappy if you enforce sexist rules
-Ignore all the economic harm done by enforcing sexist rules
-Ignore all the innovation and progress that is prevented by enforcing sexist rules
-Ignore the countless studies showing a direct correlation between enforcing sexist rules and domestic abuse, sexual abuse, rape, and homicide
-Ignore the recent studies which find that educated women with stable careers are MORE likely to get married and stay married than women who are "kept in the home"
-Ignore the many studies finding that men in egalitarian relationships are healthier on average, and even live longer than other men

Etc.

But as long as you ignore all those facts, sexism "works" great.

[Central Slavia]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

When was the last time you hunted prey and brought it to the table then?

About half a year ago , when we were killing the pig

[Central Slavia]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

Given that the overwhelming majority of families in my country could not survive on a single income from a male provider, I'd say your way pretty clearly doesn't work.

I said i am fine with both working- i just dislike the man staying at home being sustained by his wife

[Central Slavia]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

Feel free to support your theory. Good luck finding anthropological (let alone biological) data to back you up.

The "man work, woman stay at home" model is actually a very, very recent invention, and has only actually thrived in relatively rich places. Throughout all of human history, women have always worked, and it has only been a tiny minority of the very very wealthy who have had the luxury of keeping their womenfolks from working.

Still, men did the difficult thing - hunting prey and bringing it home or toiling on the field while women worked on the less difficult tasks

[Callisdrun]

One of the problems in our society, I think, is that while it's become more and more socially acceptable for mothers to have careers, it's still often not viewed as "normal" for fathers to be stay-at-home parents.

Husbands/fathers who stay home are often viewed as lazy or freeloading, or somehow less "manly" because they are not in the position of 'breadwinner.'

This is unacceptable to me, it's something that really needs to change if we're going to have an equal society. The mother being the breadwinner and the father being a stay-at-home parent needs to be socially acceptable if we are to have an equal society. The people I see who realize this usually are feminists. Those criticizing feminism often seem to cling to the idea that a husband's/father's place in the family structure is as "breadwinner," an idea I see as outdated.

I think it's kind of tragic that pay is so unequal in our society and further discourages fathers from being stay-at-home parents. The only reason my mother quit her job and stayed home while my father continued to work was because my dad made more money, due to the inequality of pay in our society. If they'd been paid the same amount, my dad probably would have quit and become a stay-at-home father, as he loved working on projects around the house and spending time with my sister and me when we were growing up.

I agree, but again, this is because women's work and "feminine" activites are viewed as inferior.

If you think that women who stay home with the kids are afforded much respect, think again. People may pay lipservice to the value of housewives sometimes, but the reality is that most women are now expected to contribute to their household income AND take care of most of the housework AND take care of most of the childcare, so women who are "merely" housewives get very little respect or recognition.

For me, it's not about fighting for better treatment of men who stay home with the kids, it's about making sure that caring for children and caring for the home is recognized for the immensely valuable service that it is...no matter who is doing it! It's about getting people to fucking recognize how much work goes into maintaining a household, whether you also have a job outside the home or not, and getting people to admit that all the boring shitwork that has to get done around the house really freaking adds up.

I completely agree with you about how important it is for families to choose their working/stay-at-home set up based on what is best for them rather than based on catering to some stupid gendered BS. Sometimes it's better for a family to have Mom stay home with the kids, and sometimes it's better if Dad does it, and sometimes it's best if both parents work, and sometimes there's two dads or two moms, and sometimes it's a set of grandparents raising their grandkids, and sometimes there are aunts or uncles or divorces or deaths in the family, and frankly life is too damn sort to worry about where the "cock" is sitting or any other such nonsense.

Quite right.

Somehow, cooking, cleaning, taking care of children, fixing things around the house, taking care of the yard, etc. are not viewed as "real" work, even though all those tasks together add up to a lot of very very real effort.

I think my father would definitely have preferred to have been a stay-at-home dad. Because what did he do during his weekends and breaks? Cook (he was a very good cook), clean (kind of a neat freak), do home repair/maintenance (100 year old houses require a LOT of this), work in the yard and spend time with his kids. He wouldn't have been any less "manly" if he'd been doing this all the time instead of having a job.

I agree, there shouldn't be a rigid "standard" way for families to divide up financial and domestic responsibilities. It should be based on what will work for the particular family making those decisions. Having an income is necessary. So is taking care of responsibilities around the house.

My ladyfriend's parents both worked when she was growing up. However, they were both school teachers, and so had basically the same hours away from home that she did, and so divided up household responsibilities between them.

[Bottle]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

Feel free to support your theory. Good luck finding anthropological (let alone biological) data to back you up.

The "man work, woman stay at home" model is actually a very, very recent invention, and has only actually thrived in relatively rich places. Throughout all of human history, women have always worked, and it has only been a tiny minority of the very very wealthy who have had the luxury of keeping their womenfolks from working.

Still, men did the difficult thing - hunting prey and bringing it home or toiling on the field while women worked on the less difficult tasks

Actually, farming originally was "women's work." Throughout most of history, farming work was either female-dominated or was shared between both males and females.

Seriously, feel free to crack a book. You're kind of embarrassing yourself.

[Ifreann]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

You're using the internet and talking about natural supremacy? Come on. I'll bet you take medicine too! What a lightweight.

Of course i do - considering i was born hanged i would be long dead without.
However, we need to fix what doesn't work, not what does

Given that the overwhelming majority of families in my country could not survive on a single income from a male provider, I'd say your way pretty clearly doesn't work.

I said i am fine with both working- i just dislike the man staying at home being sustained by his wife

Because it's ok for women to do men's work, but not vice versa. Now where have I heard that before.....

[Central Slavia]

See it in nature - it is the hen who sits on eggs, not the cock.

The lioness hunts, while the lion sits around waiting for somebody else to kill him up some dinner.

The female penguin goes in search of food, while the male sits around hugging the egg.

The male seahorse fills his torso with his spawn until such time as they are ready to eject in a cloud of gooey offspring.

I like this game.

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

Feel free to support your theory. Good luck finding anthropological (let alone biological) data to back you up.

The "man work, woman stay at home" model is actually a very, very recent invention, and has only actually thrived in relatively rich places. Throughout all of human history, women have always worked, and it has only been a tiny minority of the very very wealthy who have had the luxury of keeping their womenfolks from working.

Still, men did the difficult thing - hunting prey and bringing it home or toiling on the field while women worked on the less difficult tasks

Actually, farming originally was "women's work." Throughout most of history, farming work was either female-dominated or was shared between both males and females.

Seriously, feel free to crack a book. You're kind of embarrassing yourself.

I mean the sorts of work like plowing, reaping ,
The women helped with less difficult tasks , but the brunt of the labour done always rested on the man

[Kiskaanak]

Me too, but note that going to any of the species and trying to force it to be the wrong way round is... well... wrong and will not work.
Now, i maintain that for people ,the first (me described) scenario is the natural way

When was the last time you hunted prey and brought it to the table then?

About half a year ago , when we were killing the pig

You hunted a wild pig?

Or did a female raise it for you?

Unnatural, that.

[Tokos]

Women's education is different how? Females attended the same schools I did, were in the same classes, did the same assignments. Women have been present in all my college classes, including the upper division ones for my major.

Choice of courses is quite different. As is what women generally choose to learn about - intellectual curiosity for most women does not go in the same directions as men. As anyone who's lived with both male and female students can attest.

My ladyfriend goes to another campus of the same university system I'm enrolled in. Her major is different, but given that, and the fact that she's going for a higher degree than I am, means that she'll probably end up earning more money than I will. The career she's planning on embarking on will probably be at least a significant part of her identity, something she's really interested in rather than "just a job."

How the hell can a job give you an identity? It's a job. You wouldn't go if it didn't get you money.