Feminism and How I don't Care

[Treznor]

Because it's not like feminists don't sue companies for invent "harrasment" and whatever thing they can think of

Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to provide examples of how common this harassment really is.

Alongside statistic on how often men sue for wrongful termination or similar things, of course. You know, so we can see the clear and obvious proof that women cost employers more. And alongside statistics proving that women aren't ACTUALLY MORE LIKELY to face discrimination, and thus that the women are the cause of these costs rather than illegal hiring/firing practices.

Ooh, context is good. Excellent point. Surely there must be some documentation that has compiled this information and presented it to support the conservative argument that feminists have only themselves to blame.

[Bottle]

Because it's not like feminists don't sue companies for invent "harrasment" and whatever thing they can think of

Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to provide examples of how common this harassment really is.

Alongside statistic on how often men sue for wrongful termination or similar things, of course. You know, so we can see the clear and obvious proof that women cost employers more. And alongside statistics proving that women aren't ACTUALLY MORE LIKELY to face discrimination, and thus that the women are the cause of these costs rather than illegal hiring/firing practices.

Ooh, context is good. Excellent point. Surely there must be some documentation that has compiled this information and presented it to support the conservative argument that feminists have only themselves to blame.

It's a cute line of reasoning, though.

Women cost employers more because they sue for wrongful termination and discrimination more often, which cannot possibly be due to the fact that women are fired wrongfully or discriminated against more often than men, because everybody knows that women have full equality. Therefore, women cost more, and that's why employers are right to pay women less, and that's why women don't get to whine about making 75cents on the dollar compared to men who do the same work.

[Central Slavia]

Except that the women will do it more as they can get away with making this kind of problems easier due to all the supposed antidiscriminatory laws and whatnot.
Also, cute line of reasoning, assuming they are too stupid to take advantage of the system

[Bottle]

Except that the women will do it more as they can get away with making this kind of problems easier due to all the supposed antidiscriminatory laws and whatnot.
Also, cute line of reasoning, assuming they are too stupid to take advantage of the system

So you're admitting that you have nothing to back up your baseless claims, then?

[Treznor]

Except that the women will do it more as they can get away with making this kind of problems easier due to all the supposed antidiscriminatory laws and whatnot.
Also, cute line of reasoning, assuming they are too stupid to take advantage of the system

Then, as I said, you should have no problem providing evidence to back up your claim. Take your time, I'm in no rush.

[Bottle]

Except that the women will do it more as they can get away with making this kind of problems easier due to all the supposed antidiscriminatory laws and whatnot.
Also, cute line of reasoning, assuming they are too stupid to take advantage of the system

Then, as I said, you should have no problem providing evidence to back up your claim. Take your time, I'm in no rush.

I'm feeling generous, so I think I'm going to give him a hint:

Bureau of Labor Statistics, employment cost trends.

I know, I know, I oughtn't do somebody else's homework for them. I'm just a softy like that, I hate watching somebody flounder around without the slightest idea how to back up their assertions.

[WWII History Geeks]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

[Treznor]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

[WWII History Geeks]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

[Bottle]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

Um. Yes it does. A really lot. You can be a Christian who rejects those ideas, but it's pointless to try to pretend like the Bible doesn't frequently and clearly endorse master/slave relationships.

[WWII History Geeks]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

Um. Yes it does. A really lot. You can be a Christian who rejects those ideas, but it's pointless to try to pretend like the Bible doesn't frequently and clearly endorse master/slave relationships.

Where?

[Central Slavia]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

Um. Yes it does. A really lot. You can be a Christian who rejects those ideas, but it's pointless to try to pretend like the Bible doesn't frequently and clearly endorse master/slave relationships.

In about the same way as she can be a communist who thinks marx got it the wrong way round.....

[Bottle]

I once had a professor that was really big on feminism. I myself don't consider myself a feminist, but I don't think we should be abused, even if we may be...well, placed under men in order to help them.

Suddenly I feel like giving Lilith a pat on the back.

Lilith was just misunderstood. If Adam had REALLY been thinking, he would have just lied back and enjoyed the show.

In all seriousness, I find that the usual attempts to equate the patriarchy to capitalism to be rather suspect (They usually fall along the lines of if women were in charge, we'd all be living in a nice happy commune). However, I also don't see a lot of the points that the OP raised either.

I was just trying to put Biblical beliefs in a delicate manner. Women aren't inferior...but we're not superior either. :/ I dunno...

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

Um. Yes it does. A really lot. You can be a Christian who rejects those ideas, but it's pointless to try to pretend like the Bible doesn't frequently and clearly endorse master/slave relationships.

Where?

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Exodus 21:7-11 (Actually gives instructions on how a "good" man will go about selling his daughter into slavery)
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48 (Jesus approves of beating slaves if they don't do their jobs)
1 Corinthians 7:21

Need me to keep going?

[UrINaBLACKwhole]

Hey, let me tell you something... I GO TO AN ALL GIRLS SCHOOL... every single adult who teaches here promotes feminism

[Nulono]

The feminist foremothers were vocally pro-life,

So? I am not making a definitional argument.

and plenty of feminists today are too.

There probably are some. I said "nearly all", not "each and every one."

But I sense some "No True Scotsman" logic here.

Not at all (though in some cases, like Sarah Palin, non-feminists should be called out for being what they are.) It's just an observation of the contours of what the modern feminist movement is and what it stands for. Abortion is not a live debate among feminist theorists, or feminist activists, the way pornography was or aspects of multiculturalism are. This is not a point about the merits, it is just a recognition of where the movement is today (and has been for a few decades.)

The modern feminist movement may be largely pro-choice, hence my identification as a "paleofeminist". The definition of the word remains the same, hence "dictionary feminist". Abortion is not a live debate among feminists because pro-life feminists were forced out or accused of not being "true" feminists, so the two camps became pretty isolated.

Now, I disagree with Palin on many things, but how is she a nonfeminist? The only "evidence" I've seen cited can be attributed to free-market-ism.

By what stretch of the imagination is Sarah Palin a feminist? What feminist positions does she support?

On the other hand, even setting aside her pro-life views (including even her views on contraception and stem cell research) and her running with John McCain (whose record on gender equity was abyssmal), you are still left with:

• While mayor, supported change in rules so that Wasilla charged rape victims for rape kits.
• Opposes pay equity laws
• Opposes hate crime laws
• Supports "traditional" marriage
• Opposes comprehensive sex education
• Claims there no longer is a glass ceiling
• Wants to cut funding to the Violence Against Women Act
• Targets for defeat a number of female House Representatives -- including Republicans

1. She doesn't want the government giving people anything.
2. Opposing government regulation
3. Because it's already illegal to commit crimes. "Hate" itself should not be illegal.
4. She opposes gay AND lesbian marriage. What's your point?
5. Right, because this only hurts women.
6. So maybe she's wrong or uninformed.
7. I'm pretty sure she wants to cut funding everywhere.
8. She happens to disagree with some women, so what?

[Treznor]

Even so, it's sexist (even for women) to believe that women must be under a man's dominion as Biblical beliefs dictate. Traditional gender roles are fine for people who choose them, but should not be required for everyone. Men and women should have a relationship as partners, not constantly engaging in master/slave power plays.

Yeah, I understand that. Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that master/slave power plays are right.

Um. Yes it does. A really lot. You can be a Christian who rejects those ideas, but it's pointless to try to pretend like the Bible doesn't frequently and clearly endorse master/slave relationships.

Where?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gen.%203:16&version=KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:21-24&version=KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy%202:11-14&version=KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor%2011:3&version=KJV

I don't think that's exhaustive, but I trust you get the point.

[Iniika]

WTF is with all the anti-feminism threads?

I am a proud male feminist. I can't comment on the specific book mentioned in the OP, but other works I have read by bell hooks have been quite persuasive.

Regardless:

1. We live in a sexist society that enforces gender roles hurting all genders.

2. Feminists (with perhaps fringe exceptions that I'd disqualify from feminism) seek to shatter the oppression of all genders by gender roles AND equity among all genders.

Why does this twist so many bollocks?

I agree. I see feminism as positive not just for females, but for males as well. The blocky pre-set molds that force our gender to conform entirely with the sex we are born with are hurtful to all individuals and promote standards that are unattainable to the vast majority of people who fall in the grey area of feminine/masculine.

There should be equality for all, and there should be the freedom to chose ones own gender identity without the hurtful preconceptions that keep so many people in places of stress and dissatisfaction. The notion that Masculine is the superior and Feminine is the lesser is one of the things that needs to be fought, in my opinion.

As far as feminism vs capitalism -along with enviro-feminism, I've read it, I've understood it enough to write essays on it, but I find it a bit of a stretch, myself.

[Tokos]

Feminism is hardly a natural enemy of capitalism.

And no, it isn't positive for men in any way, that's a silly tactic to try and take for promoting it.

[Treznor]

Feminism is hardly a natural enemy of capitalism.

And no, it isn't positive for men in any way, that's a silly tactic to try and take for promoting it.

Capitalism is entirely neutral when it comes to anyone's rights. The only thing it does is promote production, distribution and wealth. Where that production, distribution and wealth go to isn't a concern, which is why human power struggles frequently result in significant inequality. In capitalism there's nothing wrong with paying women lower wages just because they're women, which is why some people view capitalism as opposed to feminism. There's no mechanism to correct the inequality.

[The Congregationists]

Feminism is hardly a natural enemy of capitalism.

And no, it isn't positive for men in any way, that's a silly tactic to try and take for promoting it.

Capitalism is entirely neutral when it comes to anyone's rights. The only thing it does is promote production, distribution and wealth. Where that production, distribution and wealth go to isn't a concern, which is why human power struggles frequently result in significant inequality. In capitalism there's nothing wrong with paying women lower wages just because they're women, which is why some people view capitalism as opposed to feminism. There's no mechanism to correct the inequality.

This line of reasoning is exactly why some at least actually claim that capitalism IS a natural enemy of feminism - at least on the economic level. If it lacks a means of correcting for gender inequality, than is by definition non-feminist at best.

[Gift-of-god]

I just finished reading "Feminism is For Everybody: Passionate Politics" by Bell Hooks (assigned in a class by a professor), and you know what? I could honestly care less...

Do not be mistaken. I respect females and I believe they should be treated equal. And while this book claims to want to "end sexism," I see it nearly as an attack on society, a promotion of socialism, and somehow tying patriarchies with capitalism. I agree that women should get paid the same amount for equal work. I agree women should not be discriminated against in the workforce. But at the same time, give me a break.

Men usually get screwed over during divorces; women have the advantage of claiming rape when it wasn't (not always, but alot); and men have to live in a world where if you happen to have a lot of sexual partners, your considered a sexist and somehow a "chauvinist pig."

What I think annoyed me most is that the book seems to blame all the woes of women on capitalism and patriarchies. And while both are highly imperfect in many, many ways, that doesn't necessarily warrant the blame there.

So NSG what do you think of feminism? Do you consider yourself a feminist? If so why? If not, why not?

Words: 217
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)

Female Score: 520
Male Score: 309

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!

http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php

[Tokos]

Capitalism is entirely neutral when it comes to anyone's rights. The only thing it does is promote production, distribution and wealth. Where that production, distribution and wealth go to isn't a concern, which is why human power struggles frequently result in significant inequality. In capitalism there's nothing wrong with paying women lower wages just because they're women, which is why some people view capitalism as opposed to feminism. There's no mechanism to correct the inequality.

Yes, but equally, the idea of increasing numbers of women working as much as men in lieu of being housewives, for instance, is something capitalists would promote. The same goes for use of nannies while mom goes to work, etc.

A lot of feminist aims jive with capitalist aims. It is, of course, just by chance.

[Central Slavia]

I just finished reading "Feminism is For Everybody: Passionate Politics" by Bell Hooks (assigned in a class by a professor), and you know what? I could honestly care less...

Do not be mistaken. I respect females and I believe they should be treated equal. And while this book claims to want to "end sexism," I see it nearly as an attack on society, a promotion of socialism, and somehow tying patriarchies with capitalism. I agree that women should get paid the same amount for equal work. I agree women should not be discriminated against in the workforce. But at the same time, give me a break.

Men usually get screwed over during divorces; women have the advantage of claiming rape when it wasn't (not always, but alot); and men have to live in a world where if you happen to have a lot of sexual partners, your considered a sexist and somehow a "chauvinist pig."

What I think annoyed me most is that the book seems to blame all the woes of women on capitalism and patriarchies. And while both are highly imperfect in many, many ways, that doesn't necessarily warrant the blame there.

So NSG what do you think of feminism? Do you consider yourself a feminist? If so why? If not, why not?

Words: 217
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)

Female Score: 520
Male Score: 309

The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!

http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php

Meh - the gender genie also thought repeatedly Amber Williams is a man...

[Treznor]

Capitalism is entirely neutral when it comes to anyone's rights. The only thing it does is promote production, distribution and wealth. Where that production, distribution and wealth go to isn't a concern, which is why human power struggles frequently result in significant inequality. In capitalism there's nothing wrong with paying women lower wages just because they're women, which is why some people view capitalism as opposed to feminism. There's no mechanism to correct the inequality.

Yes, but equally, the idea of increasing numbers of women working as much as men in lieu of being housewives, for instance, is something capitalists would promote. The same goes for use of nannies while mom goes to work, etc.

A lot of feminist aims jive with capitalist aims. It is, of course, just by chance.

Capitalists might want to promote that, but they don't. The market has had over a century to address this inequality and has done nothing. The only reason wage discrimination is less than it was before is largely due to government interference, and it still isn't finished. So I'd say feminists have a legitimate beef with an economic principle that doesn't care about unequal compensation.

[Voltos]

Here's my thing on the whole, "If a man has many sexual partners he's a stud, if a woman does the same she's a slut" thing. If a key can open multiple locks, it's a great key. If a lock can be opened by multiple keys, it's a shitty lock.