Genderless Baby

[Ryadn]

Lets do a thought experiment. Let's say NSG is a university. Under this university we have a college of Arts&Sciences, under which there are hundreds of departments from Anthropology to Zoology. How many of these students have taken Women's Studies? How many of those students have encountered this definition?
When do we define a term as "esoteric?" I'm removing common parlance from the equation, and only taking into account people with post secondary education, many of them with advanced degrees. I am excluded unrelated, often vocational, post-secondary colleges (like Engineering, though widely respected, is quite vocational). How many of our fellow students have encountered this definition of "sex" and "gender?"
Very few, perhaps?
When do we correctly use the term esoteric? It seems appropriate if the audience won't know what it means.

Um... I would certainly hope anyone studying Anthropology would understand the difference between sex, gender and sexuality. If you took a basic anthro class and they never taught you that, I'd ask for my money back.

[Ryadn]

I'm still not seeing how a baby or toddler does anything but eat and poo. Potty training is perhaps based on the toddler's sex/gender?
Perhaps I have not had enough experiences with babies/toddlers.

What toys do you buy them? What colour clothes do you dress them in? What do you decorate their room with? What stories do you tell them?

Do you pick them up and coo at them when they cry, or think they need to 'toughen up'? Do you hold and cradle them often, or let them 'be more independent'? Do you send them to the couch to watch sports with 'dad', or bring them in the kitchen to help 'mom' bake (scare quotes not intended to criticize the terms themselves, but to highlight the assumptions made about which parent--if there are two parents of different sexes and genders--do which jobs)?

[Ryadn]

"What toys do you buy them?"
Ones that facilitate teething. Balls and baby dolls are bad toys for such young children. They need things providing good tactile sensations, and safe to slobber all over. Gender Role toys start at an older age.

"What stories do you tell them?"
Dr. Seuss is Gender-specific? That dirty old Kraut! I knew one fish two fish red fish blue fish was just an apology for the Patriarchy! And Hop on Pop is just a LIE to lull little girls into a false sense of security until gender roles are shackled upon them by that wretched Cat in the Hat.


"What colour clothes do you dress them in?"
I've never understood this one either. If a pink or blue outfit gets poo'd in... doesn't it all end up brown?
But yes, this is a good point. Parents do seem a bit nonsensical in dressing up their little bundle of joy. The baby dressed up doesn't know the difference.

This is frankly quite disingenuous. Gendered toys begin at birth. Ever been to a baby shower? Go to two, one for a child of each gender, and see what gifts are given. Count up how many baby dolls are given to expected boys, and how many onesies with train prints are given to expected girls. Ditto for clothing--how many parents do you see put that idiotic headband with a flower on girl infants' heads? Nevermind the comfort of the child and the still-hardening skull--they don't want anyone to mistake the baby's gender, even for a second!

Dr. Seuss is a wonderful resource and admirably gender-vague. MANY stories are not. Again, do an experiment; go into a children's bookstore or book section and see how many stories about fairytales and ponies feature boys, and how many stories about trucks and dinosaurs feature girls.

[SaintB]

More psychotic nonsense from the Swedes about reducing inequality I see.

Please show me where its phsycotic nonsense. Are they standing in the ocean with a crossbow hunting giant fish?

[Conservatives states]

Are you serious? This thread is still going . Holy shit.

[Vault 10]

Q: How big a deal can NSG make out of nothing?

A: 505 posts.

[Conservatives states]

Q: How big a deal can NSG make out of nothing?

A: 505 posts.

NSG = When people that had lives, suddenly lose them, and talk on a forum about genderless children.

[Her Royal Crown]

As stated previously in this thread, the human mind is an immensely complicated organ many levels above our comprehension. This kid may completely reject ambiguity and choose to be a girl, boy, a boy who really likes dresses, or may embrace ambiguity and grow up strong and natural. Or the kid could jump into school unprepared and be driven to suicide by the cruelty of such youngsters, but perhaps the kid will only feel justified in his non-choice when he sees just what becomes of children who have these roles from birth. This kid could even be a gullible little brat and switch from male to female every third day. Or be completely insane and decide that it's a Ralemparradephalum and that boys are giraffes and the moon is sky. The parents decision to bring the child up without gender can leave a impact of any size on the child. Everyone is wired differently, and there is no 'proper' way to bring up a child. Some only thrive in bad environments, and stifle in good ones. And while some might feel it that experimenting with a child's life like this is wrong..well there are worse things than to be brought up by parents who try to conform you to a role that no one but a select few appreciate.

What I think is really wrong is that it seems like no one really expects children to be children without being seen as an uncaring and unfeeling. My niece is 7, and wears clothing I would expect to see on a mature woman looking for a man to play with and then dump in the dirt. To expect any child to make informed decisions about anything is a rather large leap in faith. Many of the factors that allow us to make thoughtful and informed decisions are absent and unobserved by almost every child. Growing up is the introduction of these factors into the child's mind, allowing them to make more thoughtful decisions and observe the ones they made before with a new perspective.

Gender is something that we have evolved into. For the longest time humans have simply killed anyone who did not fit into their conformations. In many ways, gender is something that has been beaten into the minds of every human on Earth. It's not something we can simply 'choice' away. Eliminating the forcing of gender roles is not something that can be forced on society, it will have to be spoonfed over many, many years. Unless a good ol' World War comes along the fast way comes into play. Parents bringing up their child while letting no one no it's identity simply isn't going to change anything. While getting the idea out through the media might encourage a few more to give it a try and eventually become a movement, most will simply dismiss it as one of those silly stories that get covered all the time.

Giving a child clothes, toys, and haircuts of both genders isn't going to impact the kids mind. The kid isn't deciding to wear a dress one day and a sailor suit the next because s/he wants to balance out his/her gender, s/he is picking them out because they appeal in some way to his/her mind(once again, a incredibly complex organ that isn't always going to be saying "Well..my body has a penis...so I should wear the blue shirt!") or even because s/he simply wants to wear something different. Unless the kid is innately stubborn, when s/he goes to school s/he is going to have in beaten into his/her mind that boys are boys and that acting like a girl is something that will make you despised, and that girls are girls and acting like a boy will make you an outcast.

Perhaps we should have a bunch of people who don't want genders band together and make their own community, where they can raise their children without gender, send them to school without gender, and live through life without gender, and see how it goes?

[Blouman Empire]

Do you pick them up and coo at them when they cry, or think they need to 'toughen up'? Do you hold and cradle them often, or let them 'be more independent'? Do you send them to the couch to watch sports with 'dad', or bring them in the kitchen to help 'mom' bake (scare quotes not intended to criticize the terms themselves, but to highlight the assumptions made about which parent--if there are two parents of different sexes and genders--do which jobs)?

Actually I was sent off to help my bake. Why? Because I needed to learn how to cook so I could be more independent but then I didn't mind as I have always had a passion for cooking.

[Blouman Empire]

Please show me where its phsycotic nonsense. Are they standing in the ocean with a crossbow hunting giant fish?

A typical Swede

[Dakini]

I don't understand why some people seem to be freaking out about this so much. I dated a guy whose parents gave him Barbie dolls to play with in addition to his trucks and dressed him in dresses. Hell, I also dated a guy who willingly wore a tutu on a regular basis (he picked it out) when he was five. The kid will be fine. Once Pop hits an age where kids do decide that they lean one way or another, the kid will do this.

I mean, you people (who are getting upset about this) act like all people born with penises consider themselves male or something. There is sometimes a difference in brain gender identity and genitalia dictated gender identity. This kid should have a good opportunity to sort this out.

[Omega Uliza]

I don't understand why some people seem to be freaking out about this so much. I dated a guy whose parents gave him Barbie dolls to play with in addition to his trucks and dressed him in dresses. Hell, I also dated a guy who willingly wore a tutu on a regular basis (he picked it out) when he was five. The kid will be fine. Once Pop hits an age where kids do decide that they lean one way or another, the kid will do this.

I mean, you people (who are getting upset about this) act like all people born with penises consider themselves male or something. There is sometimes a difference in brain gender identity and genitalia dictated gender identity. This kid should have a good opportunity to sort this out.

But if we did that...we'd be giving up our right to complain about an issue that doesn't affect us in any way other than it's different and new...and...dear Gods...scary.

In my opinion, the only reason why people get upset over these topics is because they're too young to know what they're saying and what their voice heard or too stubborn to see that change might actually be a good thing if we allowed it to happen every now and again.

That being said, I would've said 'too old' but I figured at the last moment that the people who could be considered 'too old', wouldn't care either way seeing as they haven't much longer to live yet anyway.

[Smunkeeville]

Enlighten me, how do the "physical sexual characteristics" of a baby or toddler affect the baby or toddler's role in society?

I am talking about gender roles, and, as is evidenced by this thread, a baby's biological sex plays a massive role in its (presumed) gender role.

I'm still not seeing how a baby or toddler does anything but eat and poo. Potty training is perhaps based on the toddler's sex/gender?
Perhaps I have not had enough experiences with babies/toddlers.

http://www.twinstuff.com/store/catalog/ ... rlsbib.jpg
http://www.wishuponaparty.com/images/AmscanBoyBib.JPG

http://findbabyshowergifts.info/wp-cont ... 00x300.jpg

http://www.storkbabygiftbaskets.com/basket_allgame.jpg

It starts before they are born, these are typical shower gifts.