The Ukrainian War V: Tanks For The Memories

[Transsibiria]

Your point?

I think they're asking for your point.

My point? It is very rare those days for new weapons system to get throughly tested under real battlefield conditions. The Ukraine War offers thus an excellent opportunities to test lastest gadgets and systems. The experience gained with weapon systems during the Ukraine War will be significant for years to come.

[Northern Seleucia]

I think they're asking for your point.

My point? It is very rare those days for new weapons system to get throughly tested under real battlefield conditions. The Ukraine War offers thus an excellent opportunities to test lastest gadgets and systems. The experience gained with weapon systems during the Ukraine War will be significant for years to come.

I am genuinely curious of the outcome if I were to magically place a KF51 Panther and a T-14 Armata in a closed space within range of each other.

Granted, the Armata may be a stationary gun because the engine may not work....

But still.

[Senkaku]

yep
Pierre Sprey tier nonsense right there.

It gets even funnier, he participated in anti-Vietnam War protests in Norway as a teen and one of which broke the US Embassy's windows, leading to the arrests of some of his friends. He was also intensely recruited by the KGB until 1990, by a Soviet agent masquerading as a diplomat. They gave him the codename "Steklov" as a potential target. It's the opposite of what Hersh claims.

LMAO yeah that is pretty bad, good catch. Not sure why he would throw that in there at all, but that definitely sounds like the old man has probably lost a step. Even if this story is bogus, I don’t necessarily accept that means we have definitive proof of Russian involvement in the blasts (at least enough for that to be the accepted explanation in Anglophone media), but that’s a pretty catastrophic unforced error and seems more persuasive than debates over what different policymakers in the Norwegian & US security and diplomatic apparatuses perceive to be their interests. I could get conspiratorial about it, but it sounds most likely that someone in Lubyanka is just messing with a senior citizen over email.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Russian advances in the area of Bakhmut and to the north are very dangerous, appears to be little stopping them.

Might be better for Ukraine to just pull out honestly, the city is a ruin and i get its a symbolic thing at this point and the Russians have lost a lot fighting for it, but preventing the Russians from capturing the highways leading towards Sloviansk would be more worthwhile surely?

[Great Britain eke Northern Ireland]

Russian advances in the area of Bakhmut and to the north are very dangerous, appears to be little stopping them.

Might be better for Ukraine to just pull out honestly, the city is a ruin and i get its a symbolic thing at this point and the Russians have lost a lot fighting for it, but preventing the Russians from capturing the highways leading towards Sloviansk would be more worthwhile surely?

From what I’ve heard, Ukrainian forces are aware of its lacking strategic value, but they’re using the area as an opportunity to make the Russians grind themselves for it. They care more about inflicting damages on Russian forces than unnecessarily holding the area, and have prepared withdrawal routes and are steadily withdrawing forces in general from Bakhmut.

[-The United States]

Might be better for Ukraine to just pull out honestly, the city is a ruin and i get its a symbolic thing at this point and the Russians have lost a lot fighting for it, but preventing the Russians from capturing the highways leading towards Sloviansk would be more worthwhile surely?

From what I’ve heard, Ukrainian forces are aware of its lacking strategic value, but they’re using the area as an opportunity to make the Russians grind themselves for it. They care more about inflicting damages on Russian forces than unnecessarily holding the area, and have prepared withdrawal routes and are steadily withdrawing forces in general from Bakhmut.

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

From what I’ve heard, Ukrainian forces are aware of its lacking strategic value, but they’re using the area as an opportunity to make the Russians grind themselves for it. They care more about inflicting damages on Russian forces than unnecessarily holding the area, and have prepared withdrawal routes and are steadily withdrawing forces in general from Bakhmut.

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

yeah
just like Somme 1916, or the 11th Battle of the Isonzo.

[Tarsonis]

From what I’ve heard, Ukrainian forces are aware of its lacking strategic value, but they’re using the area as an opportunity to make the Russians grind themselves for it. They care more about inflicting damages on Russian forces than unnecessarily holding the area, and have prepared withdrawal routes and are steadily withdrawing forces in general from Bakhmut.

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

[The Two Jerseys]

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

*suffer thousands of casualties to gain one mile of ground*

"We did it, Patrick, we won the war!"

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

*suffer thousands of casualties to gain one mile of ground*

"We did it, Patrick, we won the war!"

unironically what luigi cadorna was thinking after the 11th Isonzo affair. <.<

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

*suffer thousands of casualties to gain one mile of ground*

"We did it, Patrick, we won the war!"

Russia be like, “I did it, I saved the world!”

[Northern Seleucia]

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

*suffer thousands of casualties to gain one mile of ground*

"We did it, Patrick, we won the war!"

Average First World War generals

[Northern Seleucia]

*suffer thousands of casualties to gain one mile of ground*

"We did it, Patrick, we won the war!"

unironically what luigi cadorna was thinking after the 11th Isonzo affair. <.<

One must have thought the Isonzo River was the same river that flowed through the New Jerusalem in heaven in the Bible from how many times the two sides fought for control of the river region.

[Punished UMN]

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

If Ukraine doesn't withdraw from Bakhmut they risk taking enormous casualties in an encirclement that could shift the balance of power and cause long-term losses to Ukraine. Trying to make a stand in Bakhmut when it has lost strategic value and is bleeding Ukraine more than Russia now is foolhardy. Bakhmut has lost its value for bleeding the Russians.

[Durius]

From what I’ve heard, Ukrainian forces are aware of its lacking strategic value, but they’re using the area as an opportunity to make the Russians grind themselves for it. They care more about inflicting damages on Russian forces than unnecessarily holding the area, and have prepared withdrawal routes and are steadily withdrawing forces in general from Bakhmut.

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

The only difference is that Ukraine is going to lose Bakhmut while inflicting major casualties on the Russian side for a not very strategically important town. The longer the Russians take to take the town, the longer their forces stay pinned in place, unable to feed other offensives. Furthermore, given the only reason for taking Bakhmut is because it's political important for Russia, the longer they take, the more desperate they get and the more troops they commit. As long as Ukraine can manage, they should delay and bleed Russia has much as possible.

[Punished UMN]

Neither side has fared well in Bakhmut.

The only difference in Bakhmut is that Russia will win and Ukraine will lose.

The only difference is that Ukraine is going to lose Bakhmut while inflicting major casualties on the Russian side for a not very strategically important town. The longer the Russians take to take the town, the longer their forces stay pinned in place, unable to feed other offensives. Furthermore, given the only reason for taking Bakhmut is because it's political important for Russia, the longer they take, the more desperate they get and the more troops they commit. As long as Ukraine can manage, they should delay and bleed Russia has much as possible.

The battle is no longer in that stage, it is in a culmination stage. Continuing to give battle for Bakhmut will most likely result in the salient being cut off and rendered indefensible, which could prove a disaster for the Ukrainians. Falling back on Slovyansk and Kramatorsk would avoid an encirclement and make the Russian efforts pointless. As for Bakhmut, the Russians now are in a commanding position over the down and it is now the Ukrainians who risk overcommittal.

[Northern Seleucia]

Not sure if this was posted, but Ukraine's sole T-80UK Command Tank fought in Bakhmut rather well.

[Tarsonis]

Hardly. What constitutes winning and losing depends on strategic goals. Even if Russia takes bakhmut, they still lose.

If Ukraine doesn't withdraw from Bakhmut they risk taking enormous casualties in an encirclement that could shift the balance of power and cause long-term losses to Ukraine. Trying to make a stand in Bakhmut when it has lost strategic value and is bleeding Ukraine more than Russia now is foolhardy. Bakhmut has lost its value for bleeding the Russians.

Granted I'm not following the situation too closely, but others have stated the evacuation bad already been going. I fear for any civilians still there but what can you do really. Ultimately my point though is that Russia really can't win in Bakhmuht. Even if they take it, the cost has sorely outweighed the benefit, and as a result Wagner's seemingly rising star has imploded. Really, Ukraine has accomplished its strategic goals there, can give up the ground for more defensible positions. Sure the Vatniks will spin it as a grand victory, but they do that for every inch of ground anyway

[Jeriga]

Russian advances in the area of Bakhmut and to the north are very dangerous, appears to be little stopping them.

Yeah, the operational goal of the Russian advance there is basically completed. Cutting the highway is important to taking the city. I'm still really confused about the importance of this town, though?

[Picairn]

Falling back on Slovyansk and Kramatorsk would avoid an encirclement and make the Russian efforts pointless.

They don't even have to fall back that far, first they will retreat to the high grounds on Chasiv Yar and form a new line there. The town and the railways leading out of it are on elevated ground.

[Picairn]

Prigozhin says Wagner is no longer recruiting Russian prisoners. The Russian MoD will now put Wagner into penal battalions in the regular army. Prigozhin was outmaneuvered in the State Duma by Shoigu, the latter was able to push through laws that allow the Russian Army to recruit convicts as well.

[Northern Seleucia]

Prigozhin says Wagner is no longer recruiting Russian prisoners. The Russian MoD will now put Wagner into penal battalions in the regular army. Prigozhin was outmaneuvered in the State Duma by Shoigu, the latter was able to push through laws that allow the Russian Army to recruit convicts as well.

The internal between Wagner and the Army continues...

[Fractalnavel]

How are the reported crime rates in Russia these days? Somehow I bet that they've been rising. About in proportion to recruiting / failed conscription needs.

[Northern Seleucia]

How are the reported crime rates in Russia these days? Somehow I bet that they've been rising. About in proportion to recruiting / failed conscription needs.

As of November 2022, gun crime rates exploded.

[Fortisbellator]

I mean, you are looking at a war where a country steeped in traditions, following the old Russian Orthodox customs of autocracy and nationality, going to war in order to prevent its neighbour from adopting a more secular and rational mode of social organisation.

So if you squint a little...

Yah the one teeny tiny little problem with that is that Ukraine is a fairly conservative society that’s overwhelmingly Eastern Orthodox as well.

Only difference I can tell is that Kirill is ex-KGB agent in the pocket of the Kremlin.

Zelensky dissolved the church, though, right?