NationStates

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64380066

tl;dr : Turkey, who is already requesting Sweden to extradite Kurdish refugees before they green-light Sweden's NATO accession bid, is now raising the stakes and says that it will veto the bid, because Sweden isn't prosecuting some local far-right protestors who burned a copy of the Quran in front of the Turkish embassy. Note that while book-burning itself isn't illegal in Sweden, and the Swedish government has already condemned it.

Basically Turkey is requiring Sweden to adopt its own blasphemy laws. Looks a bit rich, considering how Turkey treats its ethnic minorities and how it is the only NATO country that is actually occupying territory of TWO foreign countries (Syria and Cyprus).
I think this only highlights the need for a common EU defence outside of NATO.

While it would probably never happen for strategic reasons, in an ideal world NATO would boot out Turkey and replace them with Armenia - that way NATO can hold its head high and say "Hey we're a group of nations who oppose genocide and dictators" rather than being a group of democracies who also randomly have an alliance with a corrupt and volatile dictator.

This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

Turkey doing turkey things as always

Ah yes, another reason to dislike my own country. I’m almost tempted to apologize on behalf of Turkey.

At this point, with Turkish politics the way they are, the only solution I personally see is ignoring Turkey. Let them rant on, what’re they going to do?

True Europa State wrote:Ah yes, another reason to dislike my own country. I’m almost tempted to apologize on behalf of Turkey.

At this point, with Turkish politics the way they are, the only solution I personally see is ignoring Turkey. Let them rant on, what’re they going to do?

Deny Crucial members for NATO such as Finland.

Kingdom of Faizan wrote:

True Europa State wrote:Ah yes, another reason to dislike my own country. I’m almost tempted to apologize on behalf of Turkey.

At this point, with Turkish politics the way they are, the only solution I personally see is ignoring Turkey. Let them rant on, what’re they going to do?

Deny Crucial members for NATO such as Finland.

Hear me out here. What if NATO just completely ignored Turkey and didn’t listen /s

Obviously that can’t happen, but Turkey should either be forced to accept Sweden’s entry into NATO, or be threatened with expulsion.

Juvencus wrote:This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

Unfortunately nato needs turkey,
And generally nation states act as though the ends justify the means, instead of following true ideals.

Juvencus wrote:This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

And their are many other reasons that highlight how NATO needs Turkey and that they can't afford to kick it out.

True Europa State wrote:

Kingdom of Faizan wrote:Deny Crucial members for NATO such as Finland.

Hear me out here. What if NATO just completely ignored Turkey and didn’t listen /s

Obviously that can’t happen, but Turkey should either be forced to accept Sweden’s entry into NATO, or be threatened with expulsion.

NATO can't do that and Erdogan knows it. Best we could see is the US further appeasing Turkey or twisting its arms into accepting Sweden and Finland accessions, the first being more likely if what Erdogan is seeking is a diplomatic win that he can sell before the elections.

When a series of nations have different national interests this is what happens. Swede's and turks have no business being allies. Why should Turkish boys die to support a geopolitical enemy?

Russia was probably offering turkey more than the swedes.

The protest and quaran burning was done in front of the Turkish embassy


Edit: if I could read it would be helpful.

NATO should just kick Turkey out at this point. Maybe slap them with a few treaties forbidding them to pursue bilateral agreements with Russia, but they have no business being involved in European politics.

They were a useful ally at the time for being one the few non-Warsaw Pact countries to share a border with the Soviet Union, but that stopped being an advantage a long time ago.

Juvencus wrote:This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

Unfortunately Turkey is located in a strategic location (with them holding the Turkish Straits and being the only other land route to Asia other than Russia for trade to flow through), kicking Turkey out would be a huge mistake, assuming that Erdogan will take his election loss without any attempted coups, Turkey should be fine.

Even then, there's no urgent need for Sweden and Finland to join NATO (it's not like Russia would invade nor get very far + SE and FI have military pacts with the US, UK and Poland as a sort of 'interim NATO,')

However, I think now's the time for Finland and Sweden to join separately, Erdogan's already open to the idea of letting Finland in first.

Oh yeah, also forgot to mention that it's a shame not enough people are focusing on Hungary needlessly pushing back SE and FI's NATO membership (+ 2 faux promise on ratification + one of a 'debate' in February) But then, Orban knows he can't really talk shit too much so he's just subtly push it back.

Fifth Jellian Republic wrote:

Juvencus wrote:This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

Unfortunately nato needs turkey,
And generally nation states act as though the ends justify the means, instead of following true ideals.

Durius wrote:

Juvencus wrote:This also highlights the need to kick Turkey the fuck out of NATO. They can cope.

And their are many other reasons that highlight how NATO needs Turkey and that they can't afford to kick it out.

True Europa State wrote:Hear me out here. What if NATO just completely ignored Turkey and didn’t listen /s

Obviously that can’t happen, but Turkey should either be forced to accept Sweden’s entry into NATO, or be threatened with expulsion.

NATO can't do that and Erdogan knows it. Best we could see is the US further appeasing Turkey or twisting its arms into accepting Sweden and Finland accessions, the first being more likely if what Erdogan is seeking is a diplomatic win that he can sell before the elections.

Cold war is no more, Turkey is a failing state at this point too. Everything about it keeps becoming more useless as the days go by and its corrupt "leader" is doing all last ditch efforts to distract the populace from the looming destruction ahead. Failing currency, people leaving, currently in multiple wars, illegal occupation of Cyprus, still no apologies for any of the genocides committed. It's useless and anti-nato to have them in at this point.

The Quran burning incident is not to be blamed on the Swedish government by Turkiye. It is a freedom of speech issue, and is an internal issue of Sweden.

However, the request to extradite Kurdish terrorism suspects is valid. Why would Turkiye allow accession of Sweden to NATO when it is harboring these people?

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:The Quran burning incident is not to be blamed on the Swedish government by Turkiye. It is a freedom of speech issue, and is an internal issue of Sweden.

However, the request to extradite Kurdish terrorism suspects is valid. Why would Turkiye allow accession of Sweden to NATO when it is harboring these people?

Turkey is claiming two different groups are both terrorists, while the west only recognized one, I believe.
Also consider how the words “accused” and “authoritarianism” mix.

Perikuresu wrote:assuming that Erdogan will take his election loss without any attempted coups, Turkey should be fine.

This is running on the assumption that Erdogan will HAVE an election loss.

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:The Quran burning incident is not to be blamed on the Swedish government by Turkiye. It is a freedom of speech issue, and is an internal issue of Sweden.

However, the request to extradite Kurdish terrorism suspects is valid. Why would Turkiye allow accession of Sweden to NATO when it is harboring these people?

The Swedish people deliberately insulted the turks by holding the protest in front of the embassy and burned the book there. If it was a general protest it could have been held in the park. These people are the enemy of the Turkish people, why should turkey deliberately help them?

Caymarnia wrote:

Perikuresu wrote:assuming that Erdogan will take his election loss without any attempted coups, Turkey should be fine.

This is running on the assumption that Erdogan will HAVE an election loss.

Yes, because most opinion polls (ik it's not accurate but it gives a picture) show Erdogan scoring below most of his opponents

Ethel mermania wrote:

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:The Quran burning incident is not to be blamed on the Swedish government by Turkiye. It is a freedom of speech issue, and is an internal issue of Sweden.

However, the request to extradite Kurdish terrorism suspects is valid. Why would Turkiye allow accession of Sweden to NATO when it is harboring these people?

The Swedish people deliberately insulted the turks by holding the protest in front of the embassy and burned the book there. If it was a general protest it could have been held in the park. These people are the enemy of the Turkish people, why should turkey deliberately help them?

I'm almost certain that you're joking. I'll respond anyway.

The Swedish people didn't insult anything, a group of Islamophobes did. I don't really care about that, as it's a freedom of speech issue. I'm for freedom of speech.

The valid reason to veto their membership is their decision to continue harboring Kurdish terrorists.

At this rate, Sweden should consider cutting their losses and separate their joint NATO bid from Finland; that way, at least at least a new member would join as opposed to none.

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Swedish people deliberately insulted the turks by holding the protest in front of the embassy and burned the book there. If it was a general protest it could have been held in the park. These people are the enemy of the Turkish people, why should turkey deliberately help them?

I'm almost certain that you're joking. I'll respond anyway.

The Swedish people didn't insult anything, a group of Islamophobes did. I don't really care about that, as it's a freedom of speech issue. I'm for freedom of speech.

The valid reason to veto their membership is their decision to continue harboring Kurdish terrorists.

Not joking. The swedes are not on turkey's side in either religious practice or with the Kurds. Sweden and turkey are not natural allies

It's about time to rebuild the NATO without Turkey but with Sweden and Finland instead. Turkey is not a part of the West anyway and violates Western interests in a lot of ways, including the support of Islamists and anti-democratic movements.

Ethel mermania wrote:

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:I'm almost certain that you're joking. I'll respond anyway.

The Swedish people didn't insult anything, a group of Islamophobes did. I don't really care about that, as it's a freedom of speech issue. I'm for freedom of speech.

The valid reason to veto their membership is their decision to continue harboring Kurdish terrorists.

Not joking. The swedes are not on turkey's side in either religious practice or with the Kurds. Sweden and turkey are not natural friends.

My apologies, I misread it.

Still, the Swedish people didn't insult anything. It's an internal issue for the Swedish government to decide on, and shouldn't be an issue for Turkiye. The Turkish embassy should've condemned the event, and left it there.

The Kurdish terrorist issue is a much more serious issue and is a valid reason to veto their application.

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:

Ethel mermania wrote:
Not joking. The swedes are not on turkey's side in either religious practice or with the Kurds. Sweden and turkey are not natural friends.

My apologies, I misread it.

Still, the Swedish people didn't insult anything. It's an internal issue for the Swedish government to decide on, and shouldn't be an issue for Turkiye. The Turkish embassy should've condemned the event, and left it there.

The Kurdish terrorist issue is a much more serious issue and is a valid reason to veto their application.

Free speech is a meaningless term when it comes to turkey. Turkey is not a western liberal democracy. You can't apply that concept to them.

Ethel mermania wrote:

Alti Ok Turkiye wrote:My apologies, I misread it.

Still, the Swedish people didn't insult anything. It's an internal issue for the Swedish government to decide on, and shouldn't be an issue for Turkiye. The Turkish embassy should've condemned the event, and left it there.

The Kurdish terrorist issue is a much more serious issue and is a valid reason to veto their application.

Free speech is a meaningless term when it comes to turkey. Turkey is not a western liberal democracy. You can't apply that concept to them.

Absolutely. Even more so, most Turks don't even understand the very concept. As many societies shaped by Islam they have a deeply rooted fear of controversy as a threat to social harmony and authority. "Free speech" means to them that you can say what does not endanger their concept of social order, i.e. authority, government, religion etc.

Our Western concept of free speech is based on our understanding of individualism - as is our concept of human rights. Islamic countries placed human rights repeatedly under Sharia law and placed collective rights above individual rights. Again, when we say "freedom of speech" and they agree, both sides are usually talking about something completely different.