The Problem With Alcohol

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Yeah, because last time someone tried prohibition it worked so well

Yeah, last time wasn't the solution, but I wanted to see if we could find a solution to alcohol that saves lives and prevents underground violence. Hope it exists

the answer is legalizing it but promoting safe and responsible drinking and requiring alchol companies to do the same in their marketing.

[Sky Reavers]

Yeah, because last time someone tried prohibition it worked so well

Yeah, last time wasn't the solution, but I wanted to see if we could find a solution to alcohol that saves lives and prevents underground violence. Hope it exists

It exists! It truly exists! In fact, it was invented during World War 2 by Robert Oppenheimer. If it's used in suffecient quantitiy, it will put alcohol and underground violence problem to the end. It will also solve homelessness and diseases.

Or, we could just let people drink and party without interference if they don't cause trouble.

[Thermodolia]

That’s also stupid as you are effectively killing the poor with such a policy.

Public transportation is not anywhere near good enough to support that kind of policy. And if you do take the license away permanently you’ll just end up with rising crime as you’ll have poor people who can’t afford to get to work resorting to committing crimes to survive or they’ll attempt to get government support which will cause a strain.

Again the solution isn’t punitive punishment but compassionate care via low cost or free rehabilitation. So instead of effectively sending a poor person to death for drunk driving you send them to a rehab center because clearly the drinking problem is to the point that they need help.

Well that and improve public transportation and other social services.

Which isn’t going to happen anytime soon

[Thermodolia]

This actually sounds like a really good solution

It would, given it is far more practical than just banning alcohol outright: people do like to drink, and while it wouldn't completely eliminate alcohol-induced deaths, it would vastly reduce the number of drunk drivers on the road, while ensuring that those who want to drink can still drink.

It literally wouldn’t do anything you claim. All it would do is increase the amount that of people who legally aren’t supposed to drive but still do because they need to get to their job or school or go get food or whatever.

All you are doing is punishing poor people and creating criminals while also destroying the local economy and therefore increasing drinking and drunk driving.

It’s clear that being a hard ass on drunk driving on the first offense isn’t working as there are still people who drive drunk. Maybe that’s because addiction is a medical issue and not a fucking criminal one

[Neutraligon]

Well that and improve public transportation and other social services.

Which isn’t going to happen anytime soon

True.

[Ifreann]

I don't think it's necessarily true that anyone who drives drunk is an alcoholic who needs addiction treatment. Likewise any other dangerous or anti-social behaviour.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

That being said, I'd be in favor of dramatically lowering the BAC limit to 0.00 for all drivers, not least because the province where I live has one of the highest rates of drunk-driving in Canada, and I'd be in favor of a "one-strike" policy where if you get caught driving over the limit once, your driver's license gets taken away from you permanently.

this is possibly one of the most ridiculous policy ideas I’ve heard on nsg to date, which is saying a lot.

[Thermodolia]

I don't think it's necessarily true that anyone who drives drunk is an alcoholic who needs addiction treatment. Likewise any other dangerous or anti-social behaviour.

Not everyone who drives drunk is an addict but most happen to be.

But still 3-6 months of rehab is better than throwing a drunk driver in jail, or permanently suspending their license, or suspending the license for a year (as that’s currently what happens and it clearly isn’t working).

So maybe if we tried treating it like a medical issue than we’d have success

[Sky Reavers]

this is possibly one of the most ridiculous policy ideas I’ve heard on nsg to date, which is saying a lot.

Oh, everytime, there is a policy idea on NS General, you find to be the most ridiculous, somewhere among the threads, even more ridiculous policy appears. So ridiculous, that it makes it's predcessor look like a common sense policy.

[HISPIDA]

but deserve to be imprisoned?

Well... If they break the law while drunk, obviously, however, drinking without felonies... Let's see... I guess I could get on the boat of rehabilitation. Then the people who truly just want to feel better can get counseling. However repeated instances of drinking and creating alcohol after mulitple times in rehabilitation should be judged for jail time

addiction's a health crisis, not a criminal one. this is like throwing paranoid schizophrenics in prison instead of getting them counseling.

...wait, what do you mean we do that?

[Ifreann]

I don't think it's necessarily true that anyone who drives drunk is an alcoholic who needs addiction treatment. Likewise any other dangerous or anti-social behaviour.

Not everyone who drives drunk is an addict but most happen to be.

But still 3-6 months of rehab is better than throwing a drunk driver in jail, or permanently suspending their license, or suspending the license for a year (as that’s currently what happens and it clearly isn’t working).

So maybe if we tried treating it like a medical issue than we’d have success

I wouldn't say that it is much better than jail to subject someone to unwanted medical treatment for a condition which does not afflict them. At the very least it is a waste of the time and resources of everyone involved.

[The Grand Defense League]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

[HISPIDA]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

ah, yes. the answer to public health problems: tyranny.

[The Grand Defense League]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

ah, yes. the answer to public health problems: tyranny.

Substance abuse is a health problem AND a criminal problem, and there's not much you can do with the health side of the problem until you have properly dealt with the criminal side of the problem. Because as long as there's dealers running about, there's gonna be buyers. No dealers, no buyers, and then we can talk about getting help resources for recovering addicts.

[Thermodolia]

Not everyone who drives drunk is an addict but most happen to be.

But still 3-6 months of rehab is better than throwing a drunk driver in jail, or permanently suspending their license, or suspending the license for a year (as that’s currently what happens and it clearly isn’t working).

So maybe if we tried treating it like a medical issue than we’d have success

I wouldn't say that it is much better than jail to subject someone to unwanted medical treatment for a condition which does not afflict them. At the very least it is a waste of the time and resources of everyone involved.

Then they get evaluated for a bit (say 3 days) at the rehab center and the center goes and either recommends them for the remaining treatment or Community service to serve out the remainder of the sentence.

That way you’ll get those who need help getting the help they need and those who don’t need it doing things to help the community.

It would all be free of charge though

[Thermodolia]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

Al Capone was caught because of tax evasion not bootlegging.

And we have the death penalty in place, still hasn’t stopped anyone.

So maybe we don’t try prohibition again and maybe we treat alcohol problems like the medical issues they are and get people help

[The North Polish Union]

Problem with alcohol?

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

people riot when you add a common-sense restriction to gun ownership or impose mild lockdowns to prevent a deadly disease from spreading. what do you think they’ll do when you try to hang everyone who hands a bottle with any alcohol in it to someone else? how do you plan to solve the problem of making sure the government doesn’t properly enforce prohibition? remember the police aren’t robots.

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

Problem with alcohol?

(Image)

WTF

[Thermodolia]

ah, yes. the answer to public health problems: tyranny.

Substance abuse is a health problem AND a criminal problem, and there's not much you can do with the health side of the problem until you have properly dealt with the criminal side of the problem. Because as long as there's dealers running about, there's gonna be buyers. No dealers, no buyers, and then we can talk about getting help resources for recovering addicts.

Executing dealers isn’t going to do shit except create a bunch of gangs that execute everyone they don’t trust as a suspected cop and then have deadly shoot outs with law enforcement.

There’s a reason we don’t do that shit because it would just lead to more death.

No the problem is fixed via increasing social support for the poor so they don’t think that dealing or using drugs/alcohol is an option, decriminalize everything so that addicts aren’t going to be locked up for issues, legalize the less harmful drugs like weed which will cut into the profits of the gangs, and use better enforcement techniques to take down gangs that include flipping dealers by allowing them to stay out of jail in exchange for rating out their bosses.

That’s how we fix the issue. In the meantime addicts will get help via state funded rehabilitation centers.

[The Grand Defense League]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

Al Capone was caught because of tax evasion not bootlegging.

And we have the death penalty in place, still hasn’t stopped anyone.

So maybe we don’t try prohibition again and maybe we treat alcohol problems like the medical issues they are and get people help

That's besides the point, you get my idea. And I would argue that the reason the death penalty hasn't been too effective as a crime deterrent is because of how removed it is from the public eye. Most people will look at the death penalty in the US, and just imagine some dainty shot or the electric chair in a private room. All humane and relatively painless. They will think, "Well, I've never seen an execution in my personal life, so it probably isn't going to happen to me. Yeah, I'll go ahead and do this highly illegal thing, what's the worst that can go wrong?"

Well, my argument is, let's show them the worst that can go wrong, and put the death penalty out right in view of anyone thinking about crime, in all of its horrid and blood-curdling display.


Also, I'm not arguing for prohibition personally, I even drink myself. I'm just pointing out how to properly do a prohibition of any product if there was a need for one.

[Sky Reavers]

Some of you guys make the issue of prohibition way too complicated. Enforcing an effective prohibition is really rather simple and straightforward if a government has the stones for it. To cut off the item prohibited, you have to cut off supply completely. How do you do that? Well, if the issue of substance abuse is deadly serious, then a government would do well to show how deadly serious they are about stopping it.


Make smuggling, dealing, and all distribution of contraband a capital offense, and reimplement public execution. Make an example of the exact kind of behavior you want to stop immediately, and drill it into the heads of anyone who might have thought about their get-rich-quick schemes.


"Oh, so you wanna get into bootlegging, eh? See that corpse over there? Yeah, the one being eaten by birds. His name was Al Capone, and he had the same idea as you, before he was caught."

Well, same approach has totally eliminated corruption in China. Now every Chinese official is totally uncorrupt and will never ever take a brive ever! No shit!

But seriously, it might end with more cops being killed. If the punishment is death, they why even consider giving up? Besides, there are many more addictions and crimes and scuh... and what? Kill for everything?

[The Grand Defense League]

Substance abuse is a health problem AND a criminal problem, and there's not much you can do with the health side of the problem until you have properly dealt with the criminal side of the problem. Because as long as there's dealers running about, there's gonna be buyers. No dealers, no buyers, and then we can talk about getting help resources for recovering addicts.

Executing dealers isn’t going to do shit except create a bunch of gangs that execute everyone they don’t trust as a suspected cop and then have deadly shoot outs with law enforcement.

There’s a reason we don’t do that shit because it would just lead to more death.

No the problem is fixed via increasing social support for the poor so they don’t think that dealing or using drugs/alcohol is an option, decriminalize everything so that addicts aren’t going to be locked up for issues, legalize the less harmful drugs like weed which will cut into the profits of the gangs, and use better enforcement techniques to take down gangs that include flipping dealers by allowing them to stay out of jail in exchange for rating out their bosses.

That’s how we fix the issue. In the meantime addicts will get help via state funded rehabilitation centers.

You mean gangs will be shooting each other out of cop paranoia? Even better! Also, if a cop signed up for the job not expecting a violent confrontation with criminals, they signed up for the wrong job.

I do agree we need social support for the recovering addicts, but in my opinion the first issue is getting rid of the source.

[Existential Cats]

If alcoholism is a problem in your community, maybe you should be looking for the underlying causes as to why someone would turn to the bottle. If someone is extremely dissatisfied with their life, they're going to turn to one form of self-destructive escapism or another. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

[Thermodolia]

Al Capone was caught because of tax evasion not bootlegging.

And we have the death penalty in place, still hasn’t stopped anyone.

So maybe we don’t try prohibition again and maybe we treat alcohol problems like the medical issues they are and get people help

That's besides the point, you get my idea. And I would argue that the reason the death penalty hasn't been too effective as a crime deterrent is because of how removed it is from the public eye. Most people will look at the death penalty in the US, and just imagine some dainty shot or the electric chair in a private room. All humane and relatively painless. They will think, "Well, I've never seen an execution in my personal life, so it probably isn't going to happen to me. Yeah, I'll go ahead and do this highly illegal thing, what's the worst that can go wrong?"

We have documents after documents of news stories and studies that show lethal injection (and yes most people assume it’s that and not a bullet to the head or electric chair) is extremely inhumane.

We don’t need to make a public spectacle to show them that.

Well, my argument is, let's show them the worst that can go wrong, and put the death penalty out right in view of anyone thinking about crime, in all of its horrid and blood-curdling display.

That’s only going to get people to want to ban the death penalty, not scare them into enforcement

Also, I'm not arguing for prohibition personally, I even drink myself. I'm just pointing out how to properly do a prohibition of any product if there was a need for one.

It literally didn’t work during prohibition and it won’t work now. Hell back then we still had public hangings, what happened? Absolutely nothing. They didn’t change criminals minds and instead just made the general public disgusted with the death penalty