How I talk to teenage boys about rejecting toxic masculinity

[Ostroeuropa]

https://www.centreformalepsychology.com ... -feminised

Some aspects of the APA’s guidance do provide empirical support, regarding male-friendly approaches to therapy. However, the use of terminology such as patriarchy, privilege and toxic masculinity are rarely supported by empirical evidence. Specifically, guidelines one and three have been criticised by Barry, Liddon, Walker, and Seager, (2021), because the APA claim that masculinity is purely a social construct and declare the existence of patriarchy, without any scientific evidence for this. Interestingly, Barry, Liddon and Seager, (2020), found that 88% of male participants felt the term toxic masculinity is harmful to young boys.

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From this, it could be gathered that guidance such as the APA’s may be incompatible with most men. As men tended to look unfavourably on terms such as toxic masculinity, it could be argued that the use of such language could deter men further from accessing support.

Do not talk to boys about toxic masculinity. It is abusive. The men on this forum who disagree are a part of an extremely fringe and extremist movement which has captured institutions and do not represent a healthy view of masculinity or men.

If the only men you can find who are willing to say there's nothing wrong with the term are on the fringe and support feminist ideology, then you should trust the hyper-majority of men who tell you you are engaged in harming children instead.

[Galloism]

You never, in your life, had a woman tell you "and that's why you will never get a girlfriend" or "and that's why you don't have a girlfriend" or "you'll die alone" or words to that effect?

That seems odd to me. I've heard women say that thousands of times to various people, and that's virgin shaming.

It would be "virgin shaming" only if those responses were uttered after finding out the other party is a virgin.

Teenagers can be very harsh. My 14 yo was told: that's why your so broke up with you. Because you don't like this music!

Bullying is rearing its ugly head everywhere.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 604758002/

I don't think that's true - insinuating or stating someone is a virgin is virgin shaming even if they happen to not be.

And yeah, bullying is really bad - saw this article today about the prevalence of teachers bullying students:

Teachers Bullying Children - Global Problem

[Techocracy101010]

It would be "virgin shaming" only if those responses were uttered after finding out the other party is a virgin.

Teenagers can be very harsh. My 14 yo was told: that's why your so broke up with you. Because you don't like this music!

Bullying is rearing its ugly head everywhere.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... 604758002/

I don't think that's true - insinuating or stating someone is a virgin is virgin shaming even if they happen to not be.

And yeah, bullying is really bad - saw this article today about the prevalence of teachers bullying students:

Teachers Bullying Children - Global Problem

We had a math teacher she was just lousy . We had this sweet girl emily she yelled at her till she cried . Note emily was an honor rolls student and is one of the few people i can genuinely recall always being pleasant. The same teacher accused me of cheating abd lying about being sick i actually had a fever of 102 f that day. she also threw a chair at a student and encouraged the class to snicker at people who used the bathroom.. One day she left her coffee out and more than a few of us spit in it

[The Snazzylands]

We have all been virgins we sympathize and even try to help the other guy lose his virginity.

That doesn't typically happen from what I've seen. Everything is more of a competition where people brag or compare their milestones/accomplishments with eachother. And if someone genuinely sucks or is too unappealing, any help you can give won't go very far for them except maybe over the long term.

You need better friends.

[The Snazzylands]

https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/are-men-less-willing-to-engage-in-traditional-talking-therapy-because-therapy-has-been-feminised

Some aspects of the APA’s guidance do provide empirical support, regarding male-friendly approaches to therapy. However, the use of terminology such as patriarchy, privilege and toxic masculinity are rarely supported by empirical evidence. Specifically, guidelines one and three have been criticised by Barry, Liddon, Walker, and Seager, (2021), because the APA claim that masculinity is purely a social construct and declare the existence of patriarchy, without any scientific evidence for this. Interestingly, Barry, Liddon and Seager, (2020), found that 88% of male participants felt the term toxic masculinity is harmful to young boys.

+

From this, it could be gathered that guidance such as the APA’s may be incompatible with most men. As men tended to look unfavourably on terms such as toxic masculinity, it could be argued that the use of such language could deter men further from accessing support.

Do not talk to boys about toxic masculinity. It is abusive. The men on this forum who disagree are a part of an extremely fringe and extremist movement which has captured institutions and do not represent a healthy view of masculinity or men.

If the only men you can find who are willing to say there's nothing wrong with the term are on the fringe and support feminist ideology, then you should trust the hyper-majority of men who tell you you are engaged in harming children instead.

Toxic masculinity is, by definition, an unhealthy view of masculinity. Part of you must realize this does exist, and is something some men struggle with.

There's nothing offensive about the term itself. You seem to be fixating on the semantics to avoid engaging with the concept.

[Ostroeuropa]

Toxic masculinity is, by definition, an unhealthy view of masculinity. Part of you must realize this does exist, and is something some men struggle with.

There's nothing offensive about the term itself. You seem to be fixating on the semantics to avoid engaging with the concept.

It is not for women to label men's experiences when they reject those labels as offensive and harmful. It is offensive because men find it offensive and have rejected it overwhelmingly. That is all there is to it. It is comparable to a slur as a consequence, and no amount of "It just means X" can justify its usage. Any argument you have for it not being offensive is reliant on a denial of mens humanity and/or their right to control discussion of their own experiences, and constitutes an epistemic injustice.

88% of men think the term is actively harmful. That doesn't even include "Don't knows" or people who reject the term but don't view it as harmful. If you want to discuss the concept, ask men to label it. And they have done so. they have labeled it "Misandry" and "Internalized misandry." because "Toxic masculinity" is an overbroad and offensive term which does not accurately label men's experiences and insults their identity.

For feminists to ignore all of this and say "But the definition" is a textbook case of wilful hermeneutical ignorance and an act of hostile sexism.

[Techocracy101010]

https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/are-men-less-willing-to-engage-in-traditional-talking-therapy-because-therapy-has-been-feminised

Some aspects of the APA’s guidance do provide empirical support, regarding male-friendly approaches to therapy. However, the use of terminology such as patriarchy, privilege and toxic masculinity are rarely supported by empirical evidence. Specifically, guidelines one and three have been criticised by Barry, Liddon, Walker, and Seager, (2021), because the APA claim that masculinity is purely a social construct and declare the existence of patriarchy, without any scientific evidence for this. Interestingly, Barry, Liddon and Seager, (2020), found that 88% of male participants felt the term toxic masculinity is harmful to young boys.

+

From this, it could be gathered that guidance such as the APA’s may be incompatible with most men. As men tended to look unfavourably on terms such as toxic masculinity, it could be argued that the use of such language could deter men further from accessing support.

Do not talk to boys about toxic masculinity. It is abusive. The men on this forum who disagree are a part of an extremely fringe and extremist movement which has captured institutions and do not represent a healthy view of masculinity or men.

If the only men you can find who are willing to say there's nothing wrong with the term are on the fringe and support feminist ideology, then you should trust the hyper-majority of men who tell you you are engaged in harming children instead.

Yeah can confirm i do not want to talk to a therapist to bitch about my feelings. Feelings mean jack shit i want to achieve shit and get things verifiably done with a group. Sad about not getting laid get me a number of a good call girl whose prices are reasonable . Frustrated about lack of affordable housing help me network to run the damn landlords out of town . I honestly can give a shit about some idiot nodding along engaging with my feelings as nothing changes. Only a small minded idiot thinks their feelings mater more than material reality. Hell the whole idea that we just need to make our feelings feel valid is an absurdist Sisyphusian task without end. Do we have to treat all feelings as valid? That undermines thearpy in my own masculine perspective as that means there is no longer a group shared reality. I would go so far to question this approach to thearpy as it would suggest if i identified as a dog that those feelings are valid .

[Techocracy101010]

Example of women reinforcing toxic masculinity . This is why mra has been growing. You have Anne Coulters and women like Candice Owens who are a modern white feather society. It takes both sexes working together to make a better future . Now you might say they are conservative but trust me plenty of liberal women engage in this. Its the gender version of saying but i have a black friend
https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/c ... ame=iossmf

[Luminesa]

I was never bullied by females for being a virgin.

You never, in your life, had a woman tell you "and that's why you will never get a girlfriend" or "and that's why you don't have a girlfriend" or "you'll die alone" or words to that effect?

That seems odd to me. I've heard women say that thousands of times to various people, and that's virgin shaming.

I dunno if this counts, but when I showed people my chastity ring in college one of the guys got excited and looked at it. He yelled, "Oh my gosh it's a unicorn!" I thought it was funny, but I dunno if someone else would have taken that as well as I did.

[Luminesa]

dude stop trying to pointscore on an obscure forum with 15 users at any given time it's a terrible look

Oh, the irony.

For once he's not wrong though, if Saiwania wasn't on this forum NSG would be dead, because people won't stop trying to argue with a brick wall.

[Major-Tom]

Explaining to teenage boys that you shouldn't have to bottle up your emotions and hide your issues sounds perfectly acceptable, if not admirable to me. I think most guys, myself certainly included, know how shitty it feels to bury your feelings behind a facade of stoicism.

That said, I don't know that I'd call the high depression/suicide rates, weak support systems, or feelings of inadequacy among young men a symptom of "toxic masculinity," in so much as I'd call it a symptom of prevailing social norms, the rise of social media, and a feeling of unease and insecurity among men, particularly younger boys. I'm still not sure what toxic masculinity is anymore, given that it is a phrase whose adoption as a buzzword has dampened any true meaning, but in any case, I think this is more of a societal problem that needs to be addressed.

[Major-Tom]

https://www.centreformalepsychology.com/male-psychology-magazine-listings/are-men-less-willing-to-engage-in-traditional-talking-therapy-because-therapy-has-been-feminised



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Do not talk to boys about toxic masculinity. It is abusive. The men on this forum who disagree are a part of an extremely fringe and extremist movement which has captured institutions and do not represent a healthy view of masculinity or men.

If the only men you can find who are willing to say there's nothing wrong with the term are on the fringe and support feminist ideology, then you should trust the hyper-majority of men who tell you you are engaged in harming children instead.

Yeah can confirm i do not want to talk to a therapist to bitch about my feelings. Feelings mean jack shit i want to achieve shit and get things verifiably done with a group. Sad about not getting laid get me a number of a good call girl whose prices are reasonable . Frustrated about lack of affordable housing help me network to run the damn landlords out of town . I honestly can give a shit about some idiot nodding along engaging with my feelings as nothing changes. Only a small minded idiot thinks their feelings mater more than material reality. Hell the whole idea that we just need to make our feelings feel valid is an absurdist Sisyphusian task without end. Do we have to treat all feelings as valid? That undermines thearpy in my own masculine perspective as that means there is no longer a group shared reality. I would go so far to question this approach to thearpy as it would suggest if i identified as a dog that those feelings are valid .

Hey man, if I've learned anything, it's that sometimes opening up about your feelings allows you to connect with yourself, and thus, actually understand yourself well enough to achieve your goals. Doesn't mean you have to see a headshrinker every other day, but trying a different approach when you're frustrated certainly doesn't hurt.

I don't particularly like talking about how I feel, very few people do, but it's useful in achieving some of the very things you seem to want (IE reaching your goals, being somebody, etc etc).

[Haganham]

Explaining to teenage boys that you shouldn't have to bottle up your emotions and hide your issues sounds perfectly acceptable, if not admirable to me.

This is true, if what is being explained is true. But there is a deeper issue behind men bottling up their emotions and hiding their issues. Which is that our society isn't actually willing to accept the way men feel or address their issues. And "toxic masulinity has become a shield for misandry.

[New Zoigai]

Only a small minded idiot thinks their feelings mater more than material reality.

Mental health is important, if someone wants a therapist then they can get a therapist. You arent better than anyone because you dont feel like talking about your feelings. It doesn't make you special either, a lot of us don't feel like talking to others about our emotions, but tearing down those who do is really crappy. Especially when they can go ahead and make millions more than you do, while still being the emotional wreck they are.

[Ostroeuropa]

Explaining to teenage boys that you shouldn't have to bottle up your emotions and hide your issues sounds perfectly acceptable, if not admirable to me.

This is true, if what is being explained is true. But there is a deeper issue behind men bottling up their emotions and hiding their issues. Which is that our society isn't actually willing to accept the way men feel or address their issues. And "toxic masulinity has become a shield for misandry.

This. It also shields institutionalized misandry in cases where things like therapy are posed as solutions despite a wealth of evidence that therapy is feminized and not suitable for most men.

[Techocracy101010]

Only a small minded idiot thinks their feelings mater more than material reality.

Mental health is important, if someone wants a therapist then they can get a therapist. You arent better than anyone because you dont feel like talking about your feelings. It doesn't make you special either, a lot of us don't feel like talking to others about our emotions, but tearing down those who do is really crappy. Especially when they can go ahead and make millions more than you do, while still being the emotional wreck they are.

Im not tearing anyone down . Why would my feelings matter ? I have never once had anyone give a damn about my feelings. Shit even my folks . I can’t even begin to recall the amount of fuck your feelings speeches i have had over my life. So yeah from my point of view talking about feelings is pointless. It achieves no tangible results or changes in your environment . In not big on personal truths im big on altering my reality. Shifting your mindset and all is just a variation of gas lighting and emotional manipulation tactics to accept subpar living standards . Ex me going to thearpy for my dads alcoholism and the fact that my mom would randomly scream and throw things at me over the most minor thing like leaving socks out and telling me to go live in the street. Trust me as a kid you never forget having to move your dresser in front of the door cause shes having a bitch fit. I knew what i needed for a better life i did not need to talk about my feelings . I knew the problem and solutions. Issue is no one gave solutions

[Saiwania]

It is probably true that the outside world doesn't care about anyone's feelings. But mental health is important enough that without it, you likely don't function or interact as well with the outside world and it causes you problems in terms of other people having more reasons to reject or punish you.

Therapy doesn't do much or can only go so far in my experience, but a good enough therapist/psychologist can supposedly develop a plan towards getting you to a high level of functioning or neurotypical behaviors or personality, but it also takes some work on your part. The objective isn't to change you so much as it is to mold you to being truly comfortable in your own skin or reality if there is anything wrong or abnormal that negatively impacts you..

The idea is that if you can really understand yourself, that you can make enough changes or behavior modifications to change your real circumstances or social status over time. It is usually only a good thing if people like you more. Not everyone will, but the point is that if your social skills and behaviors improve enough or can "pass" for what typically meets with approval, that you won't be an outcast anymore.

The feelings don't matter, so much as getting you to understand why you do what you do and how you can progress beyond bad past experiences or habits you developed that is screwing your game or presentation up towards other people.

I'm not big on psychology or therapy simply because it costs too much money and has limits to how much it actually helps. These are professionals that still have subjective opinions and can't truly read your mind, only give tests/evaluations and advice, regardless of whether it helps out or not.

The mind does apparently have enough neuroplasticity where, you can develop any personality you want to- given enough time and efforts to that end.

[Techocracy101010]

It is probably true that the outside world doesn't care about anyone's feelings. But mental health is important enough that without it, you likely don't function or interact as well with the outside world and it causes you problems in terms of other people having more reasons to reject or punish you.

Therapy doesn't do much or can only go so far in my experience, but a good enough therapist/psychologist can supposedly develop a plan towards getting you to a high level of functioning or neurotypical behaviors or personality, but it also takes some work on your part. The objective isn't to change you so much as it is to mold you to being truly comfortable in your own skin or reality if there is anything wrong or abnormal that negatively impacts you..

The idea is that if you can really understand yourself, that you can make enough changes or behavior modifications to change your real circumstances or social status over time. It is usually only a good thing if people like you more. Not everyone will, but the point is that if your social skills and behaviors improve enough or can "pass" for what typically meets with approval, that you won't be an outcast anymore.

The feelings don't matter, so much as getting you to understand why you do what you do and how you can progress beyond bad past experiences or habits you developed that is screwing your game or presentation up towards other people.

I'm not big on psychology or therapy simply because it costs too much money and has limits to how much it actually helps. These are professionals that still have subjective opinions and can't truly read your mind, only give tests/evaluations and advice, regardless of whether it helps out or not.

The mind does apparently have enough neuroplasticity where, you can develop any personality you want to- given enough time and efforts to that end.

I hold jobs get recommendations, and am in a degree program once more. Being able to be functional does not solve the pain or frustration it just ensures i can go to work punch in and punch out . I still live every day unfulfilled and frustrated. I watch as my life goes by and i am given more tasks more responsibilities with minimal pay increases or increases in respect . I am never given any other reason to do as such asides from the implied threat of that if i do not upskill i will be disposed of by society . I am not given positive incentives only negative thusly i am not invested in society despite my appearance of ambition and integration.
Meanwhile i get to see the social excesses of the tik tock class and other idiots. Ex do you remember that women at google who uploaded her work day? Or the two chicks at the pool who could barely describe their jobs pulling in 6 figs at a credit card company? Or insert x dumb kid running an account. Every day i wake up and i get to see these idiot rich kids larping as influencers is another day of ritual humiliation . I get folks on tv and academics writing books on why guys like me are bad. I get to see the upper classes display obscene wealth and burn our worlds precious resources for their degenerate pleasure . All while i work and study long and hard just to get by. You know im scared to go to the doctors offices. Last time i went to an approved doctor i had to pay 600 bucks as my deductible is 5k . I pay 360 a month and thats the best i could get through my employer. Do you know how humiliating it is to be shitting blood from hemroids but im scared to go to the docs as my deductible is higher than my savings? After unexpected expenses from an earlier injury my savings account went from 11k to roughly 3k usd . Im just tired. It feels like everyone gets to hate on guys like me and were expected to suck it up. Im taking out debt to go back to school so i can hopefully advance. Im just tired i feel used i feel hurt no one cares and im told im wrong to be mad at the system . Im told im a beneficiary. Im not and im tired of the sjws who wont shut up. It sucks for everyone who ain’t rich so please stop yelling at us normal guys.

Edit: So yeah im not going to take feminist wearing pussy hats seriously, im not going to take folks who complain about nation wide femicide despite males being murdered at a 4 times higher rate and assaulted at an astronomically higher rate. Im not going to take folks who complain about a 8-4 percent wage gap despite it mostly boiling down to industry preference and men preferring to take more overtime. Additional issues that make me ignore folk are fatphobia, gun control ( while saying acab) , anger over female characters in videogames ( tbh any video game controversy ex bridget astofolo i cant care if someones biggest issue is representation in videogames i cannot give a flying fig) , gas stove bans ( no seriously your fucking diet will kill you well before emissions from a stove) , veganism ( Yeah those corn and soy mono crops actually make life impossible for wild life and bio diversity intensively managed grazing allows for minimal ecosystem disruption as well as near 0 carbon emissions and replenishes soil and is not water intendive.)

[Saiwania]

I hold jobs get recommendations, and am in a degree program once more. Being able to be functional does not solve the pain or frustration it just ensures i can go to work punch in and punch out. I still live every day unfulfilled and frustrated. I watch as my life goes by and i am given more tasks more responsibilities with minimal pay increases or increases in respect. I am never given any other reason to do as such asides from the implied threat of that if I do not upskill i will be disposed of by society. I am not given positive incentives only negative thusly i am not invested in society despite my appearance of ambition and integration.

Well of course no company or boss is ever going to pay anyone more than they have to. There is no such thing as a promotion, unless or until you're worth more or bring more value and can persuade or justify moving up in rank. I don't have first hand experience with wages/salary, but from what I read, what you get paid is a pure leverage/negotiation play. Your employer has to be convinced that you have choices/options/leverage besides them and they decide whether they want to keep you badly enough as to take the business decision of paying you more to keep you in their employ or not. Otherwise, just go ahead and quit for a competitor or a better job in due time. At the end of the day, if you're no longer profitable they'll fire you. So it isn't as if you're able to ask for a raise to however high amount of salary that you want. The numbers you give have to make sense, and it helps to be armed with what people are paid where you live for your industry and so on. You have to know what you're worth and negotiate what you should be paid if or when that time comes.

Statistically speaking, the best way to advance your pay/career on a consistent basis, is to NOT stay with the same employer for too long. Instead, be willing to switch to competitors or different jobs in the same industry, but work a job for at least up to 1 year to not get pegged as an unstable job hopper. That is bad for a resume but if you switch jobs every 1 to 2 years or so, that doesn't appear to hurt you at all. Your pay entering a new job, is typically based partially on what you were previously paid if you don't have accurate payroll figures for the job position you're trying to land. If your negotiation only gets better over time, you can definitely secure more pay each new job you take if it is lucrative enough.

You also sometimes just have to tell people no. If you only ever say yes, they'll take advantage of that because the work load never truly ends. There will always be more work, it is just whether people get suckered into doing more than they have to or not, or if you compromise in setting some boundaries whilst still putting in enough effort to be seen as valuable.

Meanwhile i get to see the social excesses of the tik tock class and other idiots..Every day i wake up and i get to see these idiot rich kids larping as influencers is another day of ritual humiliation.

Stop comparing yourself to others, start focusing on only your journey and progress. It is more often than not- just a losing proposition to be jealous about anything. There is usually always going to be someone better off, and the bar or goalpost is always going to be moved just out of reach if you let it. There is no use in letting yourself be driven crazy by that. You can set realistic goals and such at your own pace and be content the more fair you are to yourself. It is ideal to be able to cut yourself some slack or find a balance between effort and reward, but also being resilient to whatever the outside world might throw at you.

[Celritannia]

Toxic masculinity is, by definition, an unhealthy view of masculinity. Part of you must realize this does exist, and is something some men struggle with.

There's nothing offensive about the term itself. You seem to be fixating on the semantics to avoid engaging with the concept.

It is not for women to label men's experiences when they reject those labels as offensive and harmful. It is offensive because men find it offensive and have rejected it overwhelmingly.

Seems like only those men who are actually toxic find the term "toxic masculinity" offensive and harmful.

Although, is this any different from you comparing feminism to conservatives or fascism?

[Techocracy101010]

It is not for women to label men's experiences when they reject those labels as offensive and harmful. It is offensive because men find it offensive and have rejected it overwhelmingly.

Seems like only those men who are actually toxic find the term "toxic masculinity" offensive and harmful.

Although, is this any different from you comparing feminism to conservatives or fascism?

Were not toxic were tired of being used blamed and hurt . Everything is toxic but yet if i was the man feminist say they want my life would be a trillion times worse

[Celritannia]

Seems like only those men who are actually toxic find the term "toxic masculinity" offensive and harmful.

Although, is this any different from you comparing feminism to conservatives or fascism?

Were not toxic were tired of being used blamed and hurt . Everything is toxic but yet if i was the man feminist say they want my life would be a trillion times worse

I'm a man and I don't think I am toxic, thus I have no problems with the phrase. It all depends on the type of person you are.

[Techocracy101010]

Were not toxic were tired of being used blamed and hurt . Everything is toxic but yet if i was the man feminist say they want my life would be a trillion times worse

I'm a man and I don't think I am toxic, thus I have no problems with the phrase. It all depends on the type of person you are.

Many folk throw the word out without care and quite frankly its way over applied and im kinda sick of hearing it. Secondly it contains a lot of stuff thats just functional to get by. Ex not sharing emotions irl at work , not taking sick time etc . We suffer real consequences for both actions . We essentially are caught in a catch 22 while being lectured . It is just annoying

[Celritannia]

I'm a man and I don't think I am toxic, thus I have no problems with the phrase. It all depends on the type of person you are.

Many folk throw the word out without care and quite frankly its way over applied and im kinda sick of hearing it.

TBH, I haven't heard it that much except online.
I'm also sick of other phrases but I'm not gonna make a song and dance about it.

[Violetiztan]

Obviously we need to teach them that they can open up about their feelings if they WANT to.

However, overusing words such as "toxic masculinity", "misogynist" and "patriarchy" will only make things worse. It is pretty clear that many kids and teens are being taught to act in a more feminine manner, to be ashamed of boyish behavior, that their whole gender is oppressive and etc (I speak this from experience).