Israeli Judicial Overhaul Resumes

[Saor Alba]

You mean an ethnostate that puts a singular ethnic group above all others is a breeding ground for the far right? I am shocked I tell you.

It's not antisemitic to believe no race deserves an ethnostate.

Fortunately Israel is not an ethnostate, but a normal nation-state. Non-Jewish citizens and residents have equal rights and opportunities to Jews. There are Arabs and other minorities in the Knesset, in the civil service, they have served on the Supreme Court, in high ranking positions in the military, as doctors and lawyers and business-people and professors, and so on. Let us ask the question: how well do Jews fare in Arab countries? Oh, that is right, almost all of them were expelled. Just like Israel right? Oh, no, that' is wrong too. Israel is over 20% Arab, and an additional 4.5% are of other non-Jewish ethnic groups.

I oppose Israel because I'm against genocide

Israel is committing no genocide.

The Israeli far right have looked at Jewish history, which is pretty much wall to wall systemic oppression and violent persecution dating back to ancient times, and have concluded that the real problem is that the Jews didn't get to be the oppressors.

Nonsense... Jews were stepped on for 2000 years and now all they are doing is defending themselves in their own country.

The entire state of Israel is an ultranationalist project lol

Had Likudniks, Kahanists, and/or Sternites been at the vanguard of Israeli creation, then maybe. But they weren't. Israel as a country emerged because of the efforts of left-wing Zionists. They were nationalists insofar as they believed in establishing a nation-state, but to call them ultranationalists is totally wrong.

[Alcala-Cordel]

It's a slow process, but the priority should be moving Palestinian families back to their own homes.
If a lack of homes is an issue, they could build more or something. A good portion of Israelis will probably leave because they don't want to live around Palestinians.

And those who stay because they believe this to be their ancestral homeland, which I think will be the majority contrary to your belief, what happens then? Is there a formation of some new state, does Palestine take over, or do the two countries unite? You basically just create the most racially tense country in the world, I don't think that would help stability at all.

Like I said, it will take time. If South Africa can work to overcome apartheid, it can happen in Palestine too.

[Washington Resistance Army]

You mean an ethnostate that puts a singular ethnic group above all others is a breeding ground for the far right? I am shocked I tell you.

It's not antisemitic to believe no race deserves an ethnostate.

Fortunately Israel is not an ethnostate, but a normal nation-state.

The state of Israel is explicitly defined as a nation by and for Jewish people. That it allows minorities to live within its borders (for now, at least) doesn't mean it's not an ethnostate.

[Restored Sumeru]

And those who stay because they believe this to be their ancestral homeland, which I think will be the majority contrary to your belief, what happens then? Is there a formation of some new state, does Palestine take over, or do the two countries unite? You basically just create the most racially tense country in the world, I don't think that would help stability at all.

Like I said, it will take time. If South Africa can work to overcome apartheid, it can happen in Palestine too.

It's not apartheid when you have a Palestinian government, paramilitary, international relations, etc. This is honestly closer to the Serbia-Kosovo situation where some nations recognize one over the other. The debate is where the borders are drawn.

[Durius]

Like I said, it will take time. If South Africa can work to overcome apartheid, it can happen in Palestine too.

It's not apartheid when you have a Palestinian government, paramilitary, international relations, etc. This is honestly closer to the Serbia-Kosovo situation where some nations recognize one over the other. The debate is where the borders are drawn.

The apartheid does not concern Palestine. The apartheid occurs in Israeli controlled territory where many Arabs live.

[Fahran]

There’s quite a bit to unpack here, but, yes, I would consider attempts to undermine the independence of Israel’s judiciary concerning.

That said, it’s a somewhat distinct problem from the continual, since 2005, commitment of Israel to gradual ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and Jewish settlement in the West Bank. It’s also not necessarily directly related to the right-ward tilt of Israeli politics, especially after 2016, or Likud making up the deficit in votes created by the loss of Yisrael Beiteinu defecting with more deliberate courting of religious parties. As much as Otzma Yehudit has been brought up, they’re one of the smaller parties in Bibi’s coalition. Likud, Shas, UTJ, and the Religious Zionists all have more seats. The problem, of course, is that Bibi needs them to maintain his coalition and avoid prosecution for corruption. So they’ll get to wield the disproportionate influence that Avigdor Lieberman’s merry band used to wield.

I’m fairly convinced that Bibi, consummate political survivor that he is, has more personal motives in pursuing this particular path. He wants to prevent the legal proceedings against him and is willing to grant concessions to Kahanists in order to do so. That’s not really unusual given the coalition partners he’s brought together in the past and his unusually long survival in the context of Israeli politics. Beyond that, while Otzma Yehudit is definitely more radical than Yisrael Beiteinu, who are still low-key racist, I’m not certain what we can expect to change. As I mentioned before, the settlement policy has been more or less ongoing since 2005. The pace of it might change, but, beyond that, Palestine remains in an unenviable situation regardless, highlighting the need for a genuinely sovereign nation-state.

[Fahran]

It's not apartheid when you have a Palestinian government, paramilitary, international relations, etc. This is honestly closer to the Serbia-Kosovo situation where some nations recognize one over the other. The debate is where the borders are drawn.

The apartheid does not concern Palestine. The apartheid occurs in Israeli controlled territory where many Arabs live.

It almost entirely concerns Palestine, specifically occupied regions of the West Bank.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

Disgusting beyond words, but not shocking. By enabling an ethnostate, they will take their genocide as far as they can until stopped. Someday the Palestinian people will be free, but for now we can only hope they stay as safe as they can.

Let's not have Israel at all. There should be no apartheid whatsoever, liberal or not.

So then where do the 9 million Israelis go? They live there now, and like it or not, they don’t deserve to be kicked out of their homes either. What’s the solution to the crisis?

They stay there. Their ancestors committed awful crimes in getting there, yes, but that doesn't mean they should be kicked out.
What needs to happen is EITHER palestine is given independence or (the more unlikely but better option) a federation where both people are truly equal and everyone's rights are respected.
The solution is to stop the oppression. Nowhere does that require removing the Israelis.

[Fahran]

So then where do the 9 million Israelis go? They live there now, and like it or not, they don’t deserve to be kicked out of their homes either. What’s the solution to the crisis?

It's a slow process, but the priority should be moving Palestinian families back to their own homes.
If a lack of homes is an issue, they could build more or something. A good portion of Israelis will probably leave because they don't want to live around Palestinians.

That last line is something else. I’m not certain if these apologetics are born out of sincere ignorance or willful insidious intent, but you’re advocating for ethnic cleansing here. Palestine, like every other Arab nation, ethnically cleansed its Jewish population during the course and in the immediate aftermath of the 1948 War. By 1954, the majority of the Israeli population were refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. “They don’t want to live next to Palestinians because they’re racist” is a very interesting way to say “Arabs ethnically cleansed my grandparents and I don’t trust them not to do the same to me the minute they have the upper hand given all their elected officials are racists.” It actually reminds me of apologetics offered for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the Nakba.

[Fahran]

I’m interested in hearing from folks who think this government is a positive development for whatever reason.

[Durius]

The apartheid does not concern Palestine. The apartheid occurs in Israeli controlled territory where many Arabs live.

It almost entirely concerns Palestine, specifically occupied regions of the West Bank.

Palestine might be concerned about it, but the point is that apartheid refers almost entirely to what happens in Israeli controlled lands, not Palestine's.

[-Astoria-]

It almost entirely concerns Palestine, specifically occupied regions of the West Bank.

Palestine might be concerned about it, but the point is that apartheid refers almost entirely to what happens in Israeli controlled lands, not Palestine's.

Israeli-controlled Palestinian lands, to be exact.

[Durius]

Palestine might be concerned about it, but the point is that apartheid refers almost entirely to what happens in Israeli controlled lands, not Palestine's.

Israeli-controlled Palestinian lands, to be exact.

Yes and no. But it's an irrelevant point given that, whichever the case is, it's an enough counterpoint to the above characterization that this is an international matter between Israel and Palestine. It is not: this is happening inside Israel.

[Fahran]

Israeli-controlled Palestinian lands, to be exact.

Yes and no. But it's an irrelevant point given that, whichever the case is, it's an enough counterpoint to the above characterization that this is an international matter between Israel and Palestine. It is not: this is happening inside Israel.

Not really, no. The vast majority of what activists describe as apartheid is occurring within what the international community recognizes as Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory, specifically the West Bank. Israel has also not officially annexed the West Bank, in whole or in part. So, yes, it’s almost entirely an international matter between Israel and Palestine.

[Nilokeras]

Had Likudniks, Kahanists, and/or Sternites been at the vanguard of Israeli creation, then maybe. But they weren't. Israel as a country emerged because of the efforts of left-wing Zionists. They were nationalists insofar as they believed in establishing a nation-state, but to call them ultranationalists is totally wrong.

And of course they declined and were eclipsed by the ultranationalists because the dissonance between being left wing and defending a nationalist, colonialist project was too strong.

[Durius]

Yes and no. But it's an irrelevant point given that, whichever the case is, it's an enough counterpoint to the above characterization that this is an international matter between Israel and Palestine. It is not: this is happening inside Israel.

Not really, no. The vast majority of what activists describe as apartheid is occurring within what the international community recognizes as Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory, specifically the West Bank. Israel has also not officially annexed the West Bank, in whole or in part. So, yes, it’s almost entirely an international matter between Israel and Palestine.

Yes, really. Arabs comprise one fifth of Israel's population and they are threated as second class citizens. It's happening even if you try to pretend "it's only towards Palestine".

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-k ... ens-israel

[Vistulange]

It's a slow process, but the priority should be moving Palestinian families back to their own homes.
If a lack of homes is an issue, they could build more or something. A good portion of Israelis will probably leave because they don't want to live around Palestinians.

That last line is something else. I’m not certain if these apologetics are born out of sincere ignorance or willful insidious intent, but you’re advocating for ethnic cleansing here. Palestine, like every other Arab nation, ethnically cleansed its Jewish population during the course and in the immediate aftermath of the 1948 War. By 1954, the majority of the Israeli population were refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. “They don’t want to live next to Palestinians because they’re racist” is a very interesting way to say “Arabs ethnically cleansed my grandparents and I don’t trust them not to do the same to me the minute they have the upper hand given all their elected officials are racists.” It actually reminds me of apologetics offered for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the Nakba.

I've yet to see a modern far-leftist advocating for any sort of solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without low-key hinting at ethnic cleansing in the most euphemistic ways possible.

I'll stand behind such a solution to the conflict where the response to "well, okay, what happens to the sabras?" is not some eerie silence accompanied by a knowing nod.

Yes and no. But it's an irrelevant point given that, whichever the case is, it's an enough counterpoint to the above characterization that this is an international matter between Israel and Palestine. It is not: this is happening inside Israel.

Not really, no. The vast majority of what activists describe as apartheid is occurring within what the international community recognizes as Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory, specifically the West Bank. Israel has also not officially annexed the West Bank, in whole or in part. So, yes, it’s almost entirely an international matter between Israel and Palestine.

To be entirely fair, there are documented cases of discrimination against Israeli Arabs; I recall reading about land development being put through unnecessarily complicated bureaucratic processes when it was Israeli Arabs in question, while Israeli Jews got their permits easier. I unfortunately don't have any links handy, as my thesis was a long time ago (and this was actually unrelated to the thesis topic, so I didn't document it well).

However, the whole "racism" debate reeks of Americans/Westerners trying to project their understanding of race and ethnicity onto other countries and regions.

[Rakhalia]

That last line is something else. I’m not certain if these apologetics are born out of sincere ignorance or willful insidious intent, but you’re advocating for ethnic cleansing here. Palestine, like every other Arab nation, ethnically cleansed its Jewish population during the course and in the immediate aftermath of the 1948 War. By 1954, the majority of the Israeli population were refugees from the Middle East and North Africa. “They don’t want to live next to Palestinians because they’re racist” is a very interesting way to say “Arabs ethnically cleansed my grandparents and I don’t trust them not to do the same to me the minute they have the upper hand given all their elected officials are racists.” It actually reminds me of apologetics offered for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians during the Nakba.

I've yet to see a modern far-leftist advocating for any sort of solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without low-key hinting at ethnic cleansing in the most euphemistic ways possible.

I'll stand behind such a solution to the conflict where the response to "well, okay, what happens to the sabras?" is not some eerie silence accompanied by a knowing nod.

Reversing the ongoing process of Israeli appropriation of Palestinian land isn't ethnic cleansing, it's literally attempting, in part, to reverse the ethnic cleansing that already happened. Settler apologia always fearmongers about the hypothetical annihilation of the settler identity as opposed to the actually-happening annihilation of the indigenous one.

[Vistulange]

I've yet to see a modern far-leftist advocating for any sort of solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without low-key hinting at ethnic cleansing in the most euphemistic ways possible.

I'll stand behind such a solution to the conflict where the response to "well, okay, what happens to the sabras?" is not some eerie silence accompanied by a knowing nod.

Reversing the ongoing process of Israeli appropriation of Palestinian land isn't ethnic cleansing, it's literally attempting, in part, to reverse the ethnic cleansing that already happened. Settler apologia always fearmongers about the hypothetical annihilation of the settler identity as opposed to the actually-happening annihilation of the indigenous one.

Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen.

I think it's pretty fucking clear cut that the government of Palestine, be it Hamas or Fatah—more likely to be Hamas—is not going allow a single Jew to live between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea if their hypothetical "decolonisation" happens.

Then again, you're a bloody tankie, so expecting any sort of intellectual honesty from you is a fool's errand.

[Vistulange]

Also, re: the thread topic itself—a reminder that Israel is not your standard liberal democracy (the rubbish "lol it's an apartheid state we know it's not democracy lmao kek" boilerplate response notwithstanding) but instead operates through a "sovereign parliament". So, basically, while reprehensible and abhorrent in practically every sense, whatever Bibi may try to do through the Knesset is completely and fully legal.

It's more of a lesson on why fully empowered parliaments able to extinguish an independent judiciary might be a really bad idea, than anything else. It's a very good institutional lesson, but I think we're more fixated on the "Israel bad!" aspect of things. As usual.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

so basically rightists in israel are pulling an america and trying to establish a dictatorship?

great. just what we need. I’m sure we’ll keep supporting them too, because 10% of our government is right-wing hacks, 40% panders to right-wing hacks, and the other 50% are too cowardly and/or hamstrung to do anything.

[Zanderlock]

Ima be honest. People need to stop effing over the Jews. Like just chill. Go pick on the Buddhists or something.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Ima be honest. People need to stop effing over the Jews. Like just chill. Go pick on the Buddhists or something.

what’s happening here is “jewish” far-right extremists are trying to kill the palestinians. not the other way around, at least this time.

[Fahran]

Yes, really. Arabs comprise one fifth of Israel's population and they are threated as second class citizens. It's happening even if you try to pretend "it's only towards Palestine".

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-k ... ens-israel

This article isn't describing what I would consider a formal regime of apartheid in Israel. It's describing systemic racism and one element of the de facto ethnic caste system that exists in Israel. We do not commonly accuse the United States, Canada, France, Russia, China, Japan, or the UAE of engaging in apartheid despite all of the aforementioned countries continuing to have varying degrees of systemic racism present in society. Your article even mentions that the separation between Jewish and Arab communities is arguably less mandated by government than redlining was in the US.

The degree of discrimination and ethnic separation is far more pronounced in the West Bank and is enforced by what I would describe as a police-state. You have small Palestinian communities, incapable of maintaining themselves without Israeli largesse, that seem to recall the Bantustans of South Africa during apartheid. You have enforced segregation of crucial infrastructure in a way that isn't really present in Israel proper. And all that exists on top of the ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing.

So, no, what you're describing isn't generally what most people would consider apartheid, though describing Israel as engaged in apartheid in the context of the West Bank is absolutely correct.

[Khurkhogur]

There’s quite a bit to unpack here, but, yes, I would consider attempts to undermine the independence of Israel’s judiciary concerning.
The pace of it might change, but, beyond that, Palestine remains in an unenviable situation regardless, highlighting the need for a genuinely sovereign nation-state.

Unfortunately, the Palestinians (and Arabs as a whole) don't really have much in the way of national consciousness. I'd say that's really evident from the fact that standard Arabic is just classical Arabic lol
Come to think of it, that really is like Latin being the universal language of pre-national Catholic Europe.
I was curious what your take on all of this would be. And like you, I'm eager to hear the takes of the people supporting this government