How can you believe in evolution?

[Justorica]

How can someone believe in evolution?

Let me ask, How can someone believe in a religion (God?)

It goes both ways, and there is no right answer.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

God, the only fields of science that people are more willing to completely misunderstand than evolution are physical cosmology and quantum mechanics. It seems that they attract misunderstandings even more than evolution. How annoying.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

It goes both ways, and there is no right answer.

Yes there is. It may be the case that we can't know it, but there still is a true answer to the question of god's existence.

[Dyakovo]

God, the only fields of science that people are more willing to completely misunderstand than evolution are physical cosmology and quantum mechanics. It seems that they attract misunderstandings even more than evolution. How annoying.

I think it is safe to say that no one understands Quantum Mechanics.

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

The problem is that there is evidence for a big bang, and no evidence for God.

Evidence: Radio static.

Your evidence can have many contributing factors that can, and can not be, related to a big bang. Can you prove where all that matter, concentrated into the size of an ATOM, came from? And how it gathered so much gravity to condense everything, including stars (which by the way, our sun accounts for 99.89% of the entire Solar System) into such a small size? And where is the Universe expanding into? Our reality is growing inside another reality, which was created how?

We have NO evidence of where matter came from, how it was created, when it showed up, or any for that matter in any type of origin. We just have "evidence" in the Big Bang. Nothing before it.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic.

1. not atom sized. most likely it had no size at all.
2. gravity will work wonders over long periods of time. besides, matter in the ancient universe wasn't evenly distributed.
3. it's creating it's own space.
4. this other reality has most likely always existed.
5. quantum fluctuations, or some such thing. somebody credible correct me if i'm wrong.

Just for the record, it is not highly relevant. I doubt anyone will be assaulting your personal beliefs, just your arguments.

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?
2. Gravity works against itself over time, i.e. the whole reason for the Big Bang.
3. How? Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed. Space is made up of matter, albeit "dark matter" which we still don't know much about. How is it creating more of itself to create space, if it goes against it's own rule we set in place?
4. What does that reality exist in? There is always the theory of alternate realities, but it still doesn't answer the question of how this all came to be.
5. Not sure what that is answering.

I saw no answer to how all of it was created. Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed. So I don't understand how it came to be, and is expanding still (as some theorists say it will go infinitely until everything in the good 'ol Universe dies out), when it can't be created. But it would of had to been to exist, no?

[Justorica]

Or the answer was in front of us the entire time. yes, that must be it. The answer: REPPY IS GOD!

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Unless he both exists and does not exist due to Quantum Superposition.

That's why Copenhagen is crap.

[The Alma Mater]

Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed.

Where did you get that silly idea ?
*detonates nuke*

See ? E = MC^2 and all that.

[Dyakovo]

3. How? Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed.

Since when?

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Can you please let me do it? You guys aren't hitting his arguments in the right places, and he's ignoring my points. Plus, you're implying that matter had to exist at the beginning and couldn't have come into existence later.

[The Tavan Race]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

The problem is that there is evidence for a big bang, and no evidence for God.

Evidence: Radio static.

Your evidence can have many contributing factors that can, and can not be, related to a big bang. Can you prove where all that matter, concentrated into the size of an ATOM, came from? And how it gathered so much gravity to condense everything, including stars (which by the way, our sun accounts for 99.89% of the entire Solar System) into such a small size? And where is the Universe expanding into? Our reality is growing inside another reality, which was created how?

We have NO evidence of where matter came from, how it was created, when it showed up, or any for that matter in any type of origin. We just have "evidence" in the Big Bang. Nothing before it.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic.

1. not atom sized. most likely it had no size at all.
2. gravity will work wonders over long periods of time. besides, matter in the ancient universe wasn't evenly distributed.
3. it's creating it's own space.
4. this other reality has most likely always existed.
5. quantum fluctuations, or some such thing. somebody credible correct me if i'm wrong.

Just for the record, it is not highly relevant. I doubt anyone will be assaulting your personal beliefs, just your arguments.

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?
2. Gravity works against itself over time, i.e. the whole reason for the Big Bang.
3. How? Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed. Space is made up of matter, albeit "dark matter" which we still don't know much about. How is it creating more of itself to create space, if it goes against it's own rule we set in place?
4. What does that reality exist in? There is always the theory of alternate realities, but it still doesn't answer the question of how this all came to be.
5. Not sure what that is answering.

I saw no answer to how all of it was created. Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed. So I don't understand how it came to be, and is expanding still (as some theorists say it will go infinitely until everything in the good 'ol Universe dies out), when it can't be created. But it would of had to been to exist, no?

1. see previous #5.
2. wtf?
3. space can exist independently of matter.
4. well, the superverse isn't supposed to exist inside anything else. it just exists. not that i'd know or anything.

Why can't matter just have always existed in some form? Also see my #3.

[Kenneth Baker]

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Still doesn't answer where that Universe and all it's matter came from.

Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed.

Where did you get that silly idea ?
*detonates nuke*

You're not really destroying the Atom though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission

So no, you're not destroying matter. You're just breaking it up, and releasing a shit load of kinetic energy, and heat with it, to create a Nuclear Explosion.

[The Tavan Race]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Can you please let me do it? You guys aren't hitting his arguments in the right places, and he's ignoring my points. Plus, you're implying that matter had to exist at the beginning and couldn't have come into existence later.

*cedes pwnage of ignorant person to one more experienced*

[Kenneth Baker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Can you please let me do it? You guys aren't hitting his arguments in the right places, and he's ignoring my points. Plus, you're implying that matter had to exist at the beginning and couldn't have come into existence later.

Matter composes everything, how could anything exist without it?

The Universe was created without it's building blocks. That happened later.

[The Alma Mater]

You're not really destroying the Atom though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission

Correct. However, I AM destroying part of its mass, and therefor matter.
Edit - actually, incorrect. I did destroy the atom Just not all of its building blocks.

So no, you're not destroying matter. You're just breaking it up, and releasing a shit load of kinetic energy, and heat with it, to create a Nuclear Explosion.

That I am not destroying every single scrap of matter in the explosion does not mean I destroy none at all.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?

Please read my posts and not these. The rest of these guys aren't physics people. I explain this.

2. Gravity works against itself over time, i.e. the whole reason for the Big Bang.

I'm sorry, but what?

3. How? Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed. Space is made up of matter, albeit "dark matter" which we still don't know much about. How is it creating more of itself to create space, if it goes against it's own rule we set in place?

There are a huge number of things wrong with this. First of all, matter can be destroyed, in the sense that it can be converted into EM radiation. What you mean to say is that energy can't be created or destroyed. That's also a simplification of energy conservation. The truth is that NET energy of a closed system is constant. That is energy conservation.

Second, space is not made of dark matter. Space is a dimensional construct, not an object. Second, the vacuum energy of empty space is dark energy, not dark matter. Though they have similar names, they are vastly different phenomena.

4. What does that reality exist in? There is always the theory of alternate realities, but it still doesn't answer the question of how this all came to be.

It doesn't have to exist inside of anything. There doesn't have to be an outside to this universe. Also, a quantum fluctuation in absolute vacuum could easily create a universe like this.

I saw no answer to how all of it was created. Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed. So I don't understand how it came to be, and is expanding still (as some theorists say it will go infinitely until everything in the good 'ol Universe dies out), when it can't be created. But it would of had to been to exist, no?

You saw no answers because you're ignoring my posts.

[Kenneth Baker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Can you please let me do it? You guys aren't hitting his arguments in the right places, and he's ignoring my points. Plus, you're implying that matter had to exist at the beginning and couldn't have come into existence later.

*cedes pwnage of ignorant person to one more experienced*

It's not ignorance to debate over a subject as this.

Show me concrete proof like that of Earth's gravity when I jump up, I fall back down.

Until then, this is all theory, and you know it. By saying I'm ignorant for questioning the unknown is just making yourself look like a fool. Ignorance isn't bliss when it doesn't exist.

[Big Jim P]

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Still doesn't answer where that Universe and all it's matter came from.

Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed.

Where did you get that silly idea ?
*detonates nuke*

You're not really destroying the Atom though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission

So no, you're not destroying matter. You're just breaking it up, and releasing a shit load of kinetic energy, and heat with it, to create a Nuclear Explosion.

You are converting a small amount of the mass into energy. See, you can convert either matter or energy into the the other. Nothing is destroyed in the process, just converted.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Matter composes everything, how could anything exist without it?

No it doesn't. Matter is essentially a certain mode of existence of energy. It can essentially be equated to the "rest" energy of wave-particles.

The Universe was created without it's building blocks. That happened later.

What?

[Kenneth Baker]

1. So you're saying the matter had no size at all, then where did it come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce

Still doesn't answer where that Universe and all it's matter came from.

Matter, again as I said, cannot be created nor destroyed.

Where did you get that silly idea ?
*detonates nuke*

You're not really destroying the Atom though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission

So no, you're not destroying matter. You're just breaking it up, and releasing a shit load of kinetic energy, and heat with it, to create a Nuclear Explosion.

You are converting a small amount of the mass into energy. See, you can convert either matter or energy into the the other. Nothing is destroyed in the process, just converted.

This is where I've been trying to get at. It's one in the morning, and I'm not exactly thinking straight.

[ZellDincht]

For those who have not taken a basic biology class, mutation is a part of evolution. That is one reason I would believe in evolution.

This is actually a very good point. It is also why every year we get a new Flu shot; and also why bacteria and viruses grow immune to medicine, and we must eventually create a more potent, stronger drug to kill them off over time.

Thanks for the extra statements to make my argument stronger. Also that is why the entire process of medicating must be finished until the end. If you have not finished your medication the more resistant virus may continue to exist. Next time you go to get rid of this virus it will be immune to the current medication and a new medication must be developed. This is commonly occurring with penicillin sadly.

[Kenneth Baker]

Matter composes everything, how could anything exist without it?

No it doesn't. Matter is essentially a certain mode of existence of energy. It can essentially be equated to the "rest" energy of wave-particles.

Everything you said only explains how energy is the constant in all of the Universe creation and/or destruction, etc.

There is no evidence of where this energy came from, however. What you have shown me does explain how something like the Big Bang could happen, and create a Universe. But as I was trying to say before, but mixed up my words (again, it's late) energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only transferred. Correct? Converted, etc. We just don't know where all of the energy came from, and how it existed before the Universe as we know it, and anything that might of existed before it.

Those are the questions that lay in the bed of truth that we may never know.

[The Alma Mater]

You are converting a small amount of the mass into energy. See, you can convert either matter or energy into the the other. Nothing is destroyed in the process, just converted.

This is where I've been trying to get at. It's one in the morning, and I'm not exactly thinking straight.

Ah, so your point is that the total amount of matter and energy in the universe is a constant - so where did it all come from if the universe is not eternal ?
Nice question

How does it logically lead to angels sitting on clouds playing harps though ?

[Eternal Yerushalayim]

3. How? Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed.

Since when?

Well, atoms make matter, and even if you split the atom apart, I don't think there's anyway to make it non-existent. But if matter can't be created, where did the world come from? I don't really think that the matter existed for an infinite amount of time before the universe appeared? That would make it an impersonal God, and we would be existing for no purpose.

[Kenneth Baker]

You are converting a small amount of the mass into energy. See, you can convert either matter or energy into the the other. Nothing is destroyed in the process, just converted.

This is where I've been trying to get at. It's one in the morning, and I'm not exactly thinking straight.

Ah, so your point is that the total amount of matter and energy in the universe is a constant - so where did it all come from if the universe is not eternal ?
Nice question

How does it logically lead to angels sitting on clouds playing harps though ?

That's another discussion all together.

How a "God(s)" might express their creations, and how it came to be, how it's believed to happen through religions, who is chosen to write wtwblwkgblwgb blah blah blah is another broad area of topic that would take another thread of 46 pages to discuss over. Again, it's all belief.