How can you believe in evolution?

[Treznor]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Do you seriously believe that energy can just appear from nowehere? Or that energy existed infinitely?

Do you seriously believe that some sort of cosmic entity can appear from nowhere? Or that this entity existed infinitely? If you're prepared to believe that without any supporting evidence, you may as well skip the unnecessary complication and consider that the Universe always existed in some form or another.

But in terms of evolution, it's a slightly more complicated and lengthier process than simply "mutating an amoeba into a human." Plus, it has the added benefit of over a hundred years of investigation and research to support it. They're still coming up empty trying to make "god" into a testable hypothesis after thousands of years.

[Elnia]

Keep in mind that this is not an instantaneous process. Here's how evolution works AS A WHOLE.

Bird with a certain gene (let's say... beak that's meant to crush nuts for food but also lets it berries) vs. bird without that gene (so he'll only eat berries).

If the place these birds both live in is an island with more nuts than berries, then the bird with the beak that only allows it to eat berries will die out sooner than the bird with the beak that allow it to eat nuts AND berries, since the food source for the bird with a certain trait is greater. In this way, once the bird with the less successful gene dies off from having it's only food source eaten, the other bird will grow and prosper. In this way, it's SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, which conforms to the laws of evolution. Now a mutagen like a chemical or some form of radiation comes along and alters the genes of the now single-beak-type bird and alters it's genes further. The birds with the gene that allows it to survive better will continue to prosper, and then another mutagen comes across and then the birds with the better genes live more, and so on and so forth. This doesn't happen instantly, it takes a LONG time. Millions of years.

Besides this, how can you deny the existence of evolution when we have stuff like A FOSSIL RECORD?! Using the fossils, we can track the changes in a species for years, making note of the various changes it goes through. The whole existence of something like completely nullifies the beginning of the Bible anyway, because according to that, we (and the earth) were created about 4000 years ago, where the fossil record proves that the earth is much, much older than that.

[The Tavan Race]

How can you believe that a person created the universe and Earth in seven days, created humanity and them made a female out of a rib of male?

Sorry, atleast the Big Bang theory has some logic behind it, same goes for evolution.

Can't say that of the fairy tale most people call the bible...

Well that reminds me of a quote.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -- Albert Camus

Of course. It would be an easy task, too, if there were some way of determining which god to live your life by.

Unfortunately, all the gods I've seen so far have about the same amount of evidence: a book or a fable, or a collection of stories.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to believe in evolution, because, darn it, it actually has more than that backing it.

If you can believe that you just happened to mutate into such a complex being....

Well, uh, yeah. Not hard, really. Given the amount of time Mother Nature had to work everything out, of course.

And trees suddenly went out of control and mutated into bacteria and microorganisms and then into fish and reptiles and mammals. And it just happened to mutate into organisms that could surive the harshest conditions without the guidance of a designer.

Well, not really. To the best of my knowledge, microorganisms came before trees, and you forgot a bunch of stuff between fish, reptiles, and mammals. Namely amphibians and birds, and all those phyla with no notochord. But you are correct about not needing a designer.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Do I have to explain that the net energy of the universe is zero for the 9,001st time? You people need to listen so I don't have to repeat myself.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

And trees suddenly went out of control and mutated into bacteria and microorganisms and then into fish and reptiles and mammals. And it just happened to mutate into organisms that could surive the harshest conditions without the guidance of a designer.

You might want to learn what evolution actually is and what Neo-Darwinian synthesis actually says before you spout off half-cocked nonsense that makes you look stupid and ignorant.

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

[The Tavan Race]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

[Dyakovo]

Ду Ай xав ту эксплейн <snip>.

Did you say something?

[The Tavan Race]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

[Dyakovo]

And trees suddenly went out of control and mutated into bacteria and microorganisms and then into fish and reptiles and mammals. And it just happened to mutate into organisms that could surive the harshest conditions without the guidance of a designer.

You might want to learn what evolution actually is and what Neo-Darwinian synthesis actually says before you spout off half-cocked nonsense that makes you look stupid and ignorant.

Nah... Let him keep spouting ignorance... It's funnier that way.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually indefensible argument.

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Nah... Let him keep spouting ignorance... It's funnier that way.

No, it's annoying. I hate having to repeat the same 20 or so points constantly. Can't the creationists come up with something new and original?

[Avenio]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

Ah, but scientific theory states that belief shouldn't enter into the equation. In scientific theory, the facts present themselves and logical conclusions as to how they occur and why are made. A belief, in the sense of a notion of how something works without necessarily being able to demonstrate that the notion works in practice, is quite discouraged. Therefore, modern science has, through the scientific method, concluded that many of the universe's mechanics and properties do not need a driving force, and can be explained rationally and logically without it.

[The Tavan Race]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

Well, before dismissing something as utterly nonexistent, it is generally good manners to define what you think it means. What, exactly, do you consider "true proof"?

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

The problem is that there is evidence for a big bang, and no evidence for God.

Evidence: Radio static.

And redshift from distant galaxies, and the CMBR being very homogeneous and isotropic. At least back to the point of the surface of last scattering, the big bang is definitely a fact.

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

The problem is that there is evidence for a big bang, and no evidence for God.

Evidence: Radio static.

Your evidence can have many contributing factors that can, and can not be, related to a big bang. Can you prove where all that matter, concentrated into the size of an ATOM, came from? And how it gathered so much gravity to condense everything, including stars (which by the way, our sun accounts for 99.89% of the entire Solar System) into such a small size? And where is the Universe expanding into? Our reality is growing inside another reality, which was created how?

We have NO evidence of where matter came from, how it was created, when it showed up, or any for that matter in any type of origin. We just have "evidence" in the Big Bang. Nothing before it.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic.

[The Alma Mater]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

Note: what we can fail to disprove.
Science does not prove things right, it proves things wrong. That is the core idea of the scientific method.

But you are right. We cannot disprove the idea of the invisible pink leopluridon ruling the earth from atop Mount Olympos with his trusted spaghetti dung beetles called Ragnaroks. We cannot disprove that they use reality altering rays that excite our thetans and allow us to be resurrected after 3 days. We cannot disprove they have obtained Mjolnir and use it to play Hare Krishna.

But why would we even assume such silly things ?

[Kenneth Baker]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

But why would we even assume such silly things ?

Isn't that the whole point of having a brain?

Reality is no fun without play time.

[ZellDincht]

Evolution has not been proven by modern science. In fact many creationists keep this argument going and this may be why creationism is losing ground. In fact many biologists claim that religion is not something proven by science it is not in the same category as science. This would normally save people from arguments except creationists think it is a sin so they should judge and condemn everyone, as such they bring in their arguments from 200 years ago. On the other hand Evolution brings in new evidence every year to support itself. Here is an example: why were scientists in the health field so worried about the swine flu? Swine Flu was not strong enough to kill many millions. Scientists were worried that swine flu would mutate into a more potent virus. For those who have not taken a basic biology class, mutation is a part of evolution. That is one reason I would believe in evolution.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Your evidence can have many contributing factors that can, and can not be, related to a big bang. Can you prove where all that matter, concentrated into the size of an ATOM, came from? And how it gathered so much gravity to condense everything, including stars (which by the way, our sun accounts for 99.89% of the entire Solar System) into such a small size? And where is the Universe expanding into? Our reality is growing inside another reality, which was created how?

We have NO evidence of where matter came from, how it was created, when it showed up, or any for that matter in any type of origin. We just have "evidence" in the Big Bang. Nothing before it.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic.

1) There was no matter at the beginning. There was only space-time and a scalar vacuum field of high density. The quantum tunneling of this scalar field from a false vacuum to a lower state triggered the release of massive amounts of electromagnetic radiation, required by energy conservation. It is already well known that sufficiently high energy EM radiation can spontaneously form other particles like quarks and leptons.

2) It doesn't have to "gather" gravity at all. Gravitational fields are inextricably linked with the stress-energy that creates them.

3) The universe doesn't have to be expanding into anything. It's not an expansion in space but an expansion of space.

[The Alma Mater]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

But why would we even assume such silly things ?

Isn't that the whole point of having a brain?

Reality is no fun without play time.

Thought experiments are fun.
Starting to believe in thought experiments without good reason tends to lead to bad things.

Example: I just imagined you to be a serial childmolester who is about to rape my kids.
Doesn't matter that I have no evidence for this, nor any reason to believe it (or any kids for that matter) - I believe it and therefor must act on it.
*fires gun*.

[The Tavan Race]

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Can you really prove it wrong though?

Show me proof that their is not a god, or gods, or some kind of higher being. Show me proof that everything we know as science is "fact". Facts are nothing more then what we can prove through experiments and get the same results over and over; this is science in it's whole. Trial and error.

This is also how evolution is basically seen as it's core. Trial and error. The organism with the favoring gene's that allow it to survive over others is ultimately the one that wins. The ones that don't are the error. What we all perceive could be wrong though; what is reality outside the human mind?

Ever heard of the burden of proof?

This is why in terms of something like this is, and will in my eyes, only be in your belief.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you just said.

There is no true proof, that's why this type of discussion over this matter (Evolution) is based on belief in terms of origin. In the actual sense of evolution, it exists, we see it in front of us everyday. It's just where it all began is where belief steps in, in my opinion.

The problem is that there is evidence for a big bang, and no evidence for God.

Evidence: Radio static.

Your evidence can have many contributing factors that can, and can not be, related to a big bang. Can you prove where all that matter, concentrated into the size of an ATOM, came from? And how it gathered so much gravity to condense everything, including stars (which by the way, our sun accounts for 99.89% of the entire Solar System) into such a small size? And where is the Universe expanding into? Our reality is growing inside another reality, which was created how?

We have NO evidence of where matter came from, how it was created, when it showed up, or any for that matter in any type of origin. We just have "evidence" in the Big Bang. Nothing before it.

Just for the record, I'm agnostic.

1. not atom sized. most likely it had no size at all.
2. gravity will work wonders over long periods of time. besides, matter in the ancient universe wasn't evenly distributed.
3. it's creating it's own space.
4. this other reality has most likely always existed.
5. quantum fluctuations, or some such thing. somebody credible correct me if i'm wrong.

Just for the record, it is not highly relevant. I doubt anyone will be assaulting your personal beliefs, just your arguments.

[Kenneth Baker]

For those who have not taken a basic biology class, mutation is a part of evolution. That is one reason I would believe in evolution.

This is actually a very good point. It is also why every year we get a new Flu shot; and also why bacteria and viruses grow immune to medicine, and we must eventually create a more potent, stronger drug to kill them off over time.