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How can you believe in evolution?

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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:42 pm

Stygon wrote:Also, if you think that life existed even just 1 million years ago, it couldn't of been on Earth. Why? Because the magnetic field shrinks about %50 every 100 years or so. So how could anything withstand a magnetic field large enough to reach the moon?


The Earth's Magnetic field isn't shrinking anywhere near that fast.
The Earth's magnetic field strength was measured by Carl Friedrich Gauss in 1835 and has been repeatedly measured since then, showing a relative decay of about 10% over the last 150 years


50% every 50 years works out to 1% a year, 10% over 150 years is 00.0666666667% a year. So 1 million years ago, the magnetic field was nowhere near as strong as you claim it was, assuming that the rate of decay is constant in percentage terms rather than absolute terms.

For that matter, insane magnetic field strengths don't seem to have that much affect either way on the health of organisms except those that are specifically attuned to them, such as for migration purposes. MRI technicians spend many hours a day bathed in intense magnetic fields, yet their average health is neither worse nor better than the rest of the population.

Balantania wrote:What made the 2 big stars that suposedly slammed into each otehr and made the big bang. Also if you think believing in religon is stupid how can you believe in evolution theory about a fish coming out of the water and growing legs and then turning into a lizard and then forming into an ape and then forming into a human. That sounds very stupid just like how you athiests think religion sounds.


The Big Bang wasn't caused by two big stars crashing together, the Universe was already there, but with substantially different laws of physics. Something caused a change and the universe began inflating like a balloon.

And evolution doesn't say a fish turned into a lizard then an ape then a man. It says a fish had fins that were a bit stiffer than its siblings, and had an advantage pushing off from the bottom after resting. It passed that on to its kids which did a bit better than their competitors, so they had more kids relative to the others. Eventually one of their descendants had even stiffer fins that allowed it to creep along the bottom when it wanted too, eventually one of it's descendants could process air just the slightest bit better than the others, eventually one of that ones descendants could stay out long enough to flop from one wet spot to the next a few feet away, eventually one of that one's descendants could hold it's breath long enough to hide on the shore for a few minutes, etc. No magical poofing from one form to the next like you seem to think it means, just very slow changes over time that give advantages to their inheritors. And not only atheists believe it, even the Vatican officially endorses this theory.
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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:58 pm

Horn-Bautz wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Horn-Bautz wrote:Its true that the theory of evolution, per se, does not claim all life comes from a single organism. This, however, is the way in which evolution is commonly portrayed. It is sad that documentary channels such as History and TLC perpetuate popular science as opposed to good science. When people argue evolution, perhaps they should clarify first which version of history they are arguing.
And yes, we have much better scientific tools now. This does not mean that we have a failproof path to the truth. It means we have better data with which to form hypothesis. The human mind is still as limited and influenced by what it wishes to find as it always was.
I was watching an excellent (for TV) documentary last night concerning God and evolution (the new Morgan Freeman series) and all the scientists looking at the same evidence could not agree as to its meaning.
The most dangerous thing in science or religion is a closed-mind. As one man on the show put it, science depends on nerve and audaciousness to present new theories, in order to open the mind and open discussion. Not one of us knows the 'truth' and we never will. We can only make theories and hypothesis and choose what to believe.


I don't see why you fail to recognize that life can come from a single origin point and organisms can evolve independently of each other. I don't understand why you fail to see that these two claims aren't contradictory. Evolution behaves more like a branching tree than a ladder. Divergences occur all the time.

As for why one origin makes more sense, it's both simple probability AND empirical evidence as well. First of all, the genetic record of life looks EXACTLY like a family tree, which is essentially impossible if life doesn't have a common ancestor. Second of all, if the origins of the first self-replicating molecules were improbable, then it's probably more likely for it to have occurred just once rather than multiple times.


I do believe in evolution and the divergence of species. I simply don't agree in the common origin of life. I believe that life is the result of environmental pressures, and therefore it would not be improbable for life to evolve in similar ways in different locations. Or there may have been other life which evolved but did not survive. Life as we know it may only be the surviving form.
I recognize that I believe this because it seems logical to me, and that others have other beliefs which are just as likely to be true as mine. I wish that we could know the truth for sure one day.
I have to sign off now- work break is over. But thank you for your insightful responses and polite arguments.


The Theory of Evolution disagrees with none of that.
I believe that life is the result of environmental pressures, and therefore it would not be improbable for life to evolve in similar ways in different locations.

Excellent summary of convergent evolution.
Or there may have been other life which evolved but did not survive. Life as we know it may only be the surviving form.

Extinctions have been recorded several times in history. However microbes don't fossilize well, so most of the viewable species are multicellular life. That doesn't rule out the possibility that life based on DNA wasn't the only kind to form in the beginning, but all kinds would have come from a single original organism of their type. The hypothesis is that DNA based life was either the most fit and outcompeted everything else, or had enough of a head start to have an insurmountable numbers advantage.
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DaWoad
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Postby DaWoad » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:06 pm

Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.
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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:09 pm

DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?
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DaWoad
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Postby DaWoad » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:12 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

it depends on how you define Transcendent Deity. If your deity can affect the real physical world in some way then yes i can prove that he/she/it doesn't exist using known principles (thermodynamics etc.) if, on the other hand your god is somehow extra-dimensional (ie. doesn't exist in this particular reality of ours but instead "lives" outside it) no no I can't but that definition of god has, as an assumption, the fact that God doesn't exist.
Last edited by DaWoad on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Treznor
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Postby Treznor » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:12 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

The same experiment that disproves Xenu, Krishna and every other mythical creature.

Which is to say, the longer we search for evidence and don't find any, the more likely it is that the claim is bogus. It may not be conclusively disproven, but it is effectively.

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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:18 pm

Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

The same experiment that disproves Xenu, Krishna and every other mythical creature.

Which is to say, the longer we search for evidence and don't find any, the more likely it is that the claim is bogus. It may not be conclusively disproven, but it is effectively.


http://www.christianbooksummaries.com/library/v3/cbs0306.pdf

Note that the author was a former atheist.
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Treznor
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Postby Treznor » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:20 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

The same experiment that disproves Xenu, Krishna and every other mythical creature.

Which is to say, the longer we search for evidence and don't find any, the more likely it is that the claim is bogus. It may not be conclusively disproven, but it is effectively.


http://www.christianbooksummaries.com/library/v3/cbs0306.pdf

Note that the author was a former atheist.

http://www.jmooneyham.com/the-case-against-god.html

Note that the author was a former Christian.

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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:24 pm

Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

The same experiment that disproves Xenu, Krishna and every other mythical creature.

Which is to say, the longer we search for evidence and don't find any, the more likely it is that the claim is bogus. It may not be conclusively disproven, but it is effectively.


http://www.christianbooksummaries.com/library/v3/cbs0306.pdf

Note that the author was a former atheist.

http://www.jmooneyham.com/the-case-against-god.html

Note that the author was a former Christian.

http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.
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"The first and simplest emotion which we discover in the human mind, is curiosity." -Edmund Burke

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Treznor
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Postby Treznor » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:33 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Treznor wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
DaWoad wrote:
Consaria wrote:
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Could someone please explain as to why you would believe in this?

Basically, I am a rationalist, because I think no super person could craft a person so complex and talented as a human. I think the creatures are a product of millions of years of natural evolution because there are proofs of our ancestors, it's just that we haven't got the fully step by step ultra-detailed picture of evolution.

God isn't a "person"

correct, god doesn't exist and is , therefor, not a person.

Proof? Is there any specific experiment that can disprove the existence of a transcendent deity?

The same experiment that disproves Xenu, Krishna and every other mythical creature.

Which is to say, the longer we search for evidence and don't find any, the more likely it is that the claim is bogus. It may not be conclusively disproven, but it is effectively.


http://www.christianbooksummaries.com/library/v3/cbs0306.pdf

Note that the author was a former atheist.

http://www.jmooneyham.com/the-case-against-god.html

Note that the author was a former Christian.

http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.

He quotes more than just Epicurus, and Epicurus' penchant for drinking and gluttony doesn't invalidate his criticism of God.

You've got a long, long list to go through before this guy is done. He helpfully presents hundreds of arguments as to why it's more rational to doubt the existence of any god than to assume they do exist. Knock yourself out.

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Aggicificicerous
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Postby Aggicificicerous » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:33 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.


I love that. Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people? Because there are no good people; everyone is a miserable sinner who deserves to burn in hell for eternity but is spared only through god's benevolence and grace. :roll:

Oh, and Epicurus did nothing of the sort. In fact, Epicurus is most famous for claiming that with only a a bit of bread and water, he was as happy as the gods in Olympus.

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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:36 pm

Aggicificicerous wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.


I love that. Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people? Because there are no good people; everyone is a miserable sinner who deserves to burn in hell for eternity but is spared only through god's benevolence and grace. :roll:

Oh, and Epicurus did nothing of the sort. In fact, Epicurus is most famous for claiming that with only a a bit of bread and water, he was as happy as the gods in Olympus.


Well I'd be happy enough to even be spared. And anyway: None of us could claim to be totally free from evil. So if God just decideds to zap all evil, would we even be left? Furthermore,most suffering is caused by human actions. Who allows children to be killed by land mines? Who builts houses near volcanoes? Who is to blame for spreading AIDS? And, if you want to blame God for the very existence of evil, why don't you ask yourself: Have I tried my very best to be good and oppose evil?

Oh yes, but that didn't reach the years of the Greeks and the Romans, did it?
Last edited by Eternal Yerushalayim on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aggicificicerous
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Postby Aggicificicerous » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:40 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Aggicificicerous wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.


I love that. Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people? Because there are no good people; everyone is a miserable sinner who deserves to burn in hell for eternity but is spared only through god's benevolence and grace. :roll:

Oh, and Epicurus did nothing of the sort. In fact, Epicurus is most famous for claiming that with only a a bit of bread and water, he was as happy as the gods in Olympus.


Well I'd be happy enough to even be spared.

Oh yes, but that didn't reach the years of the Greeks and the Romans, did it?


Considering Epicurus was Greek, not exactly.

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Postby Juthra » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:42 pm

Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!
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Postby Treznor » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:43 pm

Juthra wrote:Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Clap on! Clap off! Clap on, clap off: The Clapper!

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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:44 pm

Aggicificicerous wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Aggicificicerous wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:http://www.gotquestions.org/bad-things-good-people.html

Note that Epicurus should start blaming himself for encouraging disease and poverty through drinking, wasting and gluttony.


I love that. Why does god allow bad things to happen to good people? Because there are no good people; everyone is a miserable sinner who deserves to burn in hell for eternity but is spared only through god's benevolence and grace. :roll:

Oh, and Epicurus did nothing of the sort. In fact, Epicurus is most famous for claiming that with only a a bit of bread and water, he was as happy as the gods in Olympus.


Well I'd be happy enough to even be spared.

Oh yes, but that didn't reach the years of the Greeks and the Romans, did it?


Considering Epicurus was Greek, not exactly.

Oops, ears:(
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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:45 pm

Juthra wrote:Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Do you seriously believe that energy can just appear from nowehere? Or that energy existed infinitely?
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"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. " -Saint Augustine
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Dorky Islands
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Postby Dorky Islands » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:46 pm

How can you belive in evolution? Frankly, I don't see that you can.
Here is the clapper: :clap:
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The Tavan Race
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Postby The Tavan Race » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:46 pm

Grantanata wrote:
Volnotov wrote:How can you believe that a person created the universe and Earth in seven days, created humanity and them made a female out of a rib of male?

Sorry, atleast the Big Bang theory has some logic behind it, same goes for evolution.

Can't say that of the fairy tale most people call the bible...


Well that reminds me of a quote.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -- Albert Camus


Of course. It would be an easy task, too, if there were some way of determining which god to live your life by.

Unfortunately, all the gods I've seen so far have about the same amount of evidence: a book or a fable, or a collection of stories.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to believe in evolution, because, darn it, it actually has more than that backing it.
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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:47 pm

The Tavan Race wrote:
Grantanata wrote:
Volnotov wrote:How can you believe that a person created the universe and Earth in seven days, created humanity and them made a female out of a rib of male?

Sorry, atleast the Big Bang theory has some logic behind it, same goes for evolution.

Can't say that of the fairy tale most people call the bible...


Well that reminds me of a quote.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -- Albert Camus


Of course. It would be an easy task, too, if there were some way of determining which god to live your life by.

Unfortunately, all the gods I've seen so far have about the same amount of evidence: a book or a fable, or a collection of stories.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to believe in evolution, because, darn it, it actually has more than that backing it.


If you can believe that you just happened to mutate into such a complex being....
"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. " -Saint Augustine
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."-Albert Einstein
"The first and simplest emotion which we discover in the human mind, is curiosity." -Edmund Burke

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The Tavan Race
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Postby The Tavan Race » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:50 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
The Tavan Race wrote:
Grantanata wrote:
Volnotov wrote:How can you believe that a person created the universe and Earth in seven days, created humanity and them made a female out of a rib of male?

Sorry, atleast the Big Bang theory has some logic behind it, same goes for evolution.

Can't say that of the fairy tale most people call the bible...


Well that reminds me of a quote.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -- Albert Camus


Of course. It would be an easy task, too, if there were some way of determining which god to live your life by.

Unfortunately, all the gods I've seen so far have about the same amount of evidence: a book or a fable, or a collection of stories.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to believe in evolution, because, darn it, it actually has more than that backing it.


If you can believe that you just happened to mutate into such a complex being....


Well, uh, yeah. Not hard, really. Given the amount of time Mother Nature had to work everything out, of course.
.[]__ta ilokune nunlasi a kiso'hoso'hei kaetin__[]
.[]__voika neinseil tenei luneva daishe__[]
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Tavan is capitalized when referring to a societal construct, such as the military or language.
It is left lowercase when referring to an individual organism or a biological characteristic.

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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:52 pm

The Tavan Race wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
The Tavan Race wrote:
Grantanata wrote:
Volnotov wrote:How can you believe that a person created the universe and Earth in seven days, created humanity and them made a female out of a rib of male?

Sorry, atleast the Big Bang theory has some logic behind it, same goes for evolution.

Can't say that of the fairy tale most people call the bible...


Well that reminds me of a quote.

"I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is." -- Albert Camus


Of course. It would be an easy task, too, if there were some way of determining which god to live your life by.

Unfortunately, all the gods I've seen so far have about the same amount of evidence: a book or a fable, or a collection of stories.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to believe in evolution, because, darn it, it actually has more than that backing it.


If you can believe that you just happened to mutate into such a complex being....


Well, uh, yeah. Not hard, really. Given the amount of time Mother Nature had to work everything out, of course.

And trees suddenly went out of control and mutated into bacteria and microorganisms and then into fish and reptiles and mammals. And it just happened to mutate into organisms that could surive the harshest conditions without the guidance of a designer.
"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. " -Saint Augustine
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."-Albert Einstein
"The first and simplest emotion which we discover in the human mind, is curiosity." -Edmund Burke

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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Juthra wrote:Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Do you seriously believe that energy can just appear from nowehere? Or that energy existed infinitely?

What does that have to do with the Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection?
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
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Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
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Eternal Yerushalayim
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Postby Eternal Yerushalayim » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:56 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Juthra wrote:Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Do you seriously believe that energy can just appear from nowehere? Or that energy existed infinitely?

What does that have to do with the Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection?

Clapping of hands aka creation.
"The trouble with Socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. " -Saint Augustine
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."-Albert Einstein
"The first and simplest emotion which we discover in the human mind, is curiosity." -Edmund Burke

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Dyakovo
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Founded: Nov 13, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:58 pm

Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Eternal Yerushalayim wrote:
Juthra wrote:Well... do you honestly believe God just clapped his hands and ... mankind!

Do you seriously believe that energy can just appear from nowehere? Or that energy existed infinitely?

What does that have to do with the Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection?

Clapping of hands aka creation.

Is that a yes or a no?
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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