American Politics 16: After The Ballooning

[Celritannia]

In others words people lied under oath and tampered with evidence in some mass conspiracy? Get real. No way someone wouldn’t say something.

Individual fear is not a conspiracy. At no point did I even suggest a conspiracy. Why did you go there?

I see you jumped right past Hispida's response. Were there too many facts to counter your nonsense?

[Nora Xent]

it's almost Congressing time. I cannot make any prediction of the votes this time because I don't want to humiliate myself doing so.

[Celritannia]

it's almost Congressing time. I cannot make any prediction of the votes this time because I don't want to humiliate myself doing so.

435 for Jeb Bush.

[Nora Xent]

it's almost Congressing time. I cannot make any prediction of the votes this time because I don't want to humiliate myself doing so.

435 for Jeb Bush.

Nah, he will get one vote from Gaetz given his former stance on him.

[Necroghastia]

because there is literally nothing to suggest it wasn't murder

duh

That's not how the justice system works. You have to find something to suggest it was murder, not assume guilt and expect the defense to produce evidence it wasn't.

and, as we all fucking know already so i don't know why i have to fucking clarify, it was shown by evidence to be a murder, and everything you keep dragging up to be like "oh it was a fentanyl overdose oh he didn't weally kneel on his neck" is all horseshit, plain and simple.

[Ifreann]

because there is literally nothing to suggest it wasn't murder

duh

That's not how the justice system works. You have to find something to suggest it was murder, not assume guilt and expect the defense to produce evidence it wasn't.

You also disagree with the manslaughter charge.


If that was true, which it isn’t, then he should have been acquitted of all charges.

You are very inconsistent.

You should look up mens rea. Basically, you can charge for the commission of a crime someone would have reasonably believed they were committing. Like, if I put a fake package with a glitter bomb out for porch pirates to steal, and they come take it, in court they might argue I intentionally gave it to them. But the problem with this argument is that in the mind of the porch pirate, they were actually stealing something, so they will be found guilty. Likewise, Chauvin knew he was hurting Floyd, and that Floyd was potentially beginning to suffocate (because the other officers might be compressing his chest making it hard to breathe) yet he did nothing. He had people shouting at him to act, but he did nothing. Whether or not his actions contributed to Floyd's death is irrelevant - he had every reason to consider that he was putting Floyd in serious danger, yet did not stop, even after he fell unconscious. That is what makes him guilty.

Gravlen is a lawyer. And you should look up actus reus.

[Bombadil]

it's almost Congressing time. I cannot make any prediction of the votes this time because I don't want to humiliate myself doing so.

“We made some very good progress,” a freshly confident McCarthy said as he left the floor on Friday afternoon after the House voted to adjourn until later that evening. “We’ll come back tonight. I believe at that time we’ll have the votes to finish this once and for all.”

This time it's McCarthy claiming progress, though if progress is caving to every demand the extreme right asks for then he's about the worst bargainer for progress I've ever seen, this is much like Hindenburg giving Hitler some power to 'control' him.

At the heart of the deal is a rule that would allow a single lawmaker to move to “vacate the chair,” effectively triggering a vote to oust the speaker at any point. McCarthy defended the concessions, insisting it would not weaken his authority or undermine his ability to govern.

That was supposedly his red line for negotiations.. he will face endless calls for vacation if he does anything the extreme right doesn't want. America will be in gridlock.

[Galiantus III]

Kneeling on the back of someone's neck does not compress the trachea or cut off enough circulation to starve the brain of oxygen.

so, two things about this.

1. floyd wasn't being choked on the back of the neck. chauvin's knee was on the side of his neck. floyd was facing towards the camera, and chauvin's knee can very clearly be seen compressing the area between his ear and his shoulder; the levator scapulae and sternocleidomastoid muscles. below this area are the jugular veins and carotid artery. the jugular is one of the veins that takes blood from the brain and pumps it back into the heart. the much more important part here is the carotid artery, which supplies the brain with blood.

according to dr. martin tobin during chauvin's trial, approximately 91.5 pounds --- or half of chauvin's body weight --- was coming down on floyd's neck given that one of chauvin's feet were off the ground, and both were at some points, which can clearly be seen in the photo where chauvin is kneeling on floyd's neck. that is more than enough weight to compress both the jugular and carotid; it takes about 6kg (13lbs) to compress the carotid. chauvin was applying 7 times that.

2. compression of the trachea isn't necessary for someone to die via strangulation. all the trachea does is supply air flow to the brain. strangulation can be caused by the compression of numerous parts of the neck, including the carotid. the carotid being compressed can lead to asphyxia or brain ischemia, a lack of proper blood flow to the brain, which can result in hypoxia, both of which can lead to death. floyd's cause of death was labeled by up to 5 witness for the prosecution as aspyxhia due to subdual/neck restraint and by dr. andrew baker, who filed the death report on floyd, as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression".

The assumption that half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck is a pretty generous one. That implies only two points of contact, which would have been very tiring for Chauvin to maintain for that amount of time. A more realistic one would be a quarter, since his foot on the same leg as the knee would have been in contact with the pavement. And if you consider his other leg to be two points (one knee, one foot), you open up the possibility of a wide range of weights (ranging from close to nothing to well over half) that cannot possibly be determined by video only.

Also describing this in terms of force is kind of meaningless. What matters for compressing any pressure vessel (including an artery) is pressure. 5 pounds of force applied at a point would easily compress the carotid. 5 pounds applied over 10 square inches won't do a thing.

[Bombadil]

so, two things about this.

1. floyd wasn't being choked on the back of the neck. chauvin's knee was on the side of his neck. floyd was facing towards the camera, and chauvin's knee can very clearly be seen compressing the area between his ear and his shoulder; the levator scapulae and sternocleidomastoid muscles. below this area are the jugular veins and carotid artery. the jugular is one of the veins that takes blood from the brain and pumps it back into the heart. the much more important part here is the carotid artery, which supplies the brain with blood.

according to dr. martin tobin during chauvin's trial, approximately 91.5 pounds --- or half of chauvin's body weight --- was coming down on floyd's neck given that one of chauvin's feet were off the ground, and both were at some points, which can clearly be seen in the photo where chauvin is kneeling on floyd's neck. that is more than enough weight to compress both the jugular and carotid; it takes about 6kg (13lbs) to compress the carotid. chauvin was applying 7 times that.

2. compression of the trachea isn't necessary for someone to die via strangulation. all the trachea does is supply air flow to the brain. strangulation can be caused by the compression of numerous parts of the neck, including the carotid. the carotid being compressed can lead to asphyxia or brain ischemia, a lack of proper blood flow to the brain, which can result in hypoxia, both of which can lead to death. floyd's cause of death was labeled by up to 5 witness for the prosecution as aspyxhia due to subdual/neck restraint and by dr. andrew baker, who filed the death report on floyd, as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression".

The assumption that half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck is a pretty generous one. That implies only two points of contact, which would have been very tiring for Chauvin to maintain for that amount of time. A more realistic one would be a quarter, since his foot on the same leg as the knee would have been in contact with the pavement. And if you consider his other leg to be two points (one knee, one foot), you open up the possibility of a wide range of weights (ranging from close to nothing to well over half) that cannot possibly be determined by video only.

Also describing this in terms of force is kind of meaningless. What matters for compressing any pressure vessel (including an artery) is pressure. 5 pounds of force applied at a point would easily compress the carotid. 5 pounds applied over 10 square inches won't do a thing.

Oh yes, that world we live in where an internet commentator's opinion has as much weight as a doctor's analysis on medical matters..

[Galiantus III]

George Floyd died of a fentanyl overdose so big it would kill a horse. Kneeling on the back of someone's neck does not compress the trachea or cut off enough circulation to starve the brain of oxygen.


Which is what happened.


Which is what happened.


Because it is debatable whether it was murder.


If you call insisting he was guilty of manslaughter but probably not murder defending Chauvin, I don't know what to tell you. I've been pretty clear on my view what he did was wrong, but I just don't see the murder argument. I think the murder charges were 100% politically motivated, because the left has a history of doing this exact thing (see Kyle Rittenhouse). And what I said initially was true: conservatives' initial reaction to the George Floyd video was overwhelmingly anti-Chauvin and pro-Floyd. Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck... you name any conservative commentator within a week of that video, and they were all saying "that was appalling". That 46% figure came about after the trial, and you quoted it wrong: the title of the article says Nearly Half Of Republicans Think Derek Chauvin Verdict Was Wrong, Poll Shows. The poll asked if they thought the jury "came to the right verdict", not if they "thought he was guilty". Your own source proves you wrong, and demonstrates how desperate you are to lump conservatives into a group and vilify us.

In the course of this post alone you prove yourself a liar. You say that you think Chauvin was guilty of manslaughter, but you also say that Floyd died of a fentanyl overdose. These two things literally cannot both be true. For Chauvin to be guilty of the manslaughter of Floyd he must have killed Floyd. For Floyd to have died of a fentanyl overdose he cannot have been killed by Chauvin. You're lying to defend a murderer in the course of claiming that the right condemns violence.

I don't consider people guilty of the effects of their actions, but of their actions themselves. Chauvin could obviously see Floyd was in distress, yet did not adjust his actions in the interest of his welfare. It is obvious from the video that he should have believed he (and/or the other officers) were harming Floyd in some way. Whether Floyd lived or died I would want Chauvin charged with a crime, because he obviously had no problem with the idea of endangering someone else.

[Galiantus III]

The assumption that half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck is a pretty generous one. That implies only two points of contact, which would have been very tiring for Chauvin to maintain for that amount of time. A more realistic one would be a quarter, since his foot on the same leg as the knee would have been in contact with the pavement. And if you consider his other leg to be two points (one knee, one foot), you open up the possibility of a wide range of weights (ranging from close to nothing to well over half) that cannot possibly be determined by video only.

Also describing this in terms of force is kind of meaningless. What matters for compressing any pressure vessel (including an artery) is pressure. 5 pounds of force applied at a point would easily compress the carotid. 5 pounds applied over 10 square inches won't do a thing.

Oh yes, that world we live in where an internet commentator's opinion has as much weight as a doctor's analysis on medical matters..

I'm an engineer. I think the fact that my understanding of basic math and physics is obviously more comprehensive than this doctor's (again, force and pressure are different) completely nullifies that appeal to authority.

[Celritannia]

so, two things about this.

1. floyd wasn't being choked on the back of the neck. chauvin's knee was on the side of his neck. floyd was facing towards the camera, and chauvin's knee can very clearly be seen compressing the area between his ear and his shoulder; the levator scapulae and sternocleidomastoid muscles. below this area are the jugular veins and carotid artery. the jugular is one of the veins that takes blood from the brain and pumps it back into the heart. the much more important part here is the carotid artery, which supplies the brain with blood.

according to dr. martin tobin during chauvin's trial, approximately 91.5 pounds --- or half of chauvin's body weight --- was coming down on floyd's neck given that one of chauvin's feet were off the ground, and both were at some points, which can clearly be seen in the photo where chauvin is kneeling on floyd's neck. that is more than enough weight to compress both the jugular and carotid; it takes about 6kg (13lbs) to compress the carotid. chauvin was applying 7 times that.

2. compression of the trachea isn't necessary for someone to die via strangulation. all the trachea does is supply air flow to the brain. strangulation can be caused by the compression of numerous parts of the neck, including the carotid. the carotid being compressed can lead to asphyxia or brain ischemia, a lack of proper blood flow to the brain, which can result in hypoxia, both of which can lead to death. floyd's cause of death was labeled by up to 5 witness for the prosecution as aspyxhia due to subdual/neck restraint and by dr. andrew baker, who filed the death report on floyd, as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression".

The assumption that half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck is a pretty generous one. That implies only two points of contact, which would have been very tiring for Chauvin to maintain for that amount of time. A more realistic one would be a quarter, since his foot on the same leg as the knee would have been in contact with the pavement. And if you consider his other leg to be two points (one knee, one foot), you open up the possibility of a wide range of weights (ranging from close to nothing to well over half) that cannot possibly be determined by video only.

Also describing this in terms of force is kind of meaningless. What matters for compressing any pressure vessel (including an artery) is pressure. 5 pounds of force applied at a point would easily compress the carotid. 5 pounds applied over 10 square inches won't do a thing.

And you know this, how?

[Celritannia]

Oh yes, that world we live in where an internet commentator's opinion has as much weight as a doctor's analysis on medical matters..

I'm an engineer. I think the fact that my understanding of basic math and physics is obviously more comprehensive than this doctor's (again, force and pressure are different) completely nullifies that appeal to authority.

This is just laughable. Unless you have a medical degree, or deal with autopsies, I don't think you have anything to say except nonsense.

[Bombadil]

Oh yes, that world we live in where an internet commentator's opinion has as much weight as a doctor's analysis on medical matters..

I'm an engineer. I think the fact that my understanding of basic math and physics is obviously more comprehensive than this doctor's (again, force and pressure are different) completely nullifies that appeal to authority.

Yeah well I'm just going to trust the doctor's death report over someone on a forum.. if I need a bridge I'll ask you.

[Picairn]

so, two things about this.

1. floyd wasn't being choked on the back of the neck. chauvin's knee was on the side of his neck. floyd was facing towards the camera, and chauvin's knee can very clearly be seen compressing the area between his ear and his shoulder; the levator scapulae and sternocleidomastoid muscles. below this area are the jugular veins and carotid artery. the jugular is one of the veins that takes blood from the brain and pumps it back into the heart. the much more important part here is the carotid artery, which supplies the brain with blood.

according to dr. martin tobin during chauvin's trial, approximately 91.5 pounds --- or half of chauvin's body weight --- was coming down on floyd's neck given that one of chauvin's feet were off the ground, and both were at some points, which can clearly be seen in the photo where chauvin is kneeling on floyd's neck. that is more than enough weight to compress both the jugular and carotid; it takes about 6kg (13lbs) to compress the carotid. chauvin was applying 7 times that.

2. compression of the trachea isn't necessary for someone to die via strangulation. all the trachea does is supply air flow to the brain. strangulation can be caused by the compression of numerous parts of the neck, including the carotid. the carotid being compressed can lead to asphyxia or brain ischemia, a lack of proper blood flow to the brain, which can result in hypoxia, both of which can lead to death. floyd's cause of death was labeled by up to 5 witness for the prosecution as aspyxhia due to subdual/neck restraint and by dr. andrew baker, who filed the death report on floyd, as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression".

The assumption that half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck is a pretty generous one. That implies only two points of contact, which would have been very tiring for Chauvin to maintain for that amount of time. A more realistic one would be a quarter, since his foot on the same leg as the knee would have been in contact with the pavement. And if you consider his other leg to be two points (one knee, one foot), you open up the possibility of a wide range of weights (ranging from close to nothing to well over half) that cannot possibly be determined by video only.

Also describing this in terms of force is kind of meaningless. What matters for compressing any pressure vessel (including an artery) is pressure. 5 pounds of force applied at a point would easily compress the carotid. 5 pounds applied over 10 square inches won't do a thing.

This is a word salad. Half of Chauvin's body weight was on Floyd's neck because the former was pressing on the latter's with his knee while his foot was off the ground, and Chauvin was leaning forward instead of backwards - which directs the force applied down to his knee. And if Chauvin was kneeling on Floyd with both his knees then he can shift his body and apply greater force to the knee on Floyd's neck.

Wow, thanks for your (very basic) insight on the pressure equation. Totally ignoring how you can consciously concentrate force into one small area and thus increase pressure.

[Free Algerstonia]

it's almost Congressing time. I cannot make any prediction of the votes this time because I don't want to humiliate myself doing so.

“We made some very good progress,” a freshly confident McCarthy said as he left the floor on Friday afternoon after the House voted to adjourn until later that evening. “We’ll come back tonight. I believe at that time we’ll have the votes to finish this once and for all.”

This time it's McCarthy claiming progress, though if progress is caving to every demand the extreme right asks for then he's about the worst bargainer for progress I've ever seen, this is much like Hindenburg giving Hitler some power to 'control' him.

At the heart of the deal is a rule that would allow a single lawmaker to move to “vacate the chair,” effectively triggering a vote to oust the speaker at any point. McCarthy defended the concessions, insisting it would not weaken his authority or undermine his ability to govern.

That was supposedly his red line for negotiations.. he will face endless calls for vacation if he does anything the extreme right doesn't want. America will be in gridlock.

this is a great day for america because for the first time ever my viewpoints will be fought for in the house of representatives

[The Black Forrest]

Passing thought:

If it looks like Kevin is going to make it. All democrats suddenly vote for him. When asked why “Too good of a deal”

Think it would cause chaos?

[Bombadil]

“We made some very good progress,” a freshly confident McCarthy said as he left the floor on Friday afternoon after the House voted to adjourn until later that evening. “We’ll come back tonight. I believe at that time we’ll have the votes to finish this once and for all.”

This time it's McCarthy claiming progress, though if progress is caving to every demand the extreme right asks for then he's about the worst bargainer for progress I've ever seen, this is much like Hindenburg giving Hitler some power to 'control' him.

At the heart of the deal is a rule that would allow a single lawmaker to move to “vacate the chair,” effectively triggering a vote to oust the speaker at any point. McCarthy defended the concessions, insisting it would not weaken his authority or undermine his ability to govern.

That was supposedly his red line for negotiations.. he will face endless calls for vacation if he does anything the extreme right doesn't want. America will be in gridlock.

this is a great day for america because for the first time ever my viewpoints will be fought for in the house of representatives

Finally we will find out whether those space jews really did fire lasers on California..

[Hispida]

Passing thought:

If it looks like Kevin is going to make it. All democrats suddenly vote for him. When asked why “Too good of a deal”

Think it would cause chaos?

if this happens i will actually go fucking nuts

[Untecna]

Boebert voted present.

[The Black Forrest]

this is a great day for america because for the first time ever my viewpoints will be fought for in the house of representatives

Finally we will find out whether those space jews really did fire lasers on California..

Bastards keep trying to get me!

[Nora Xent]

Boebert voted present.

And Gaetz is said to also have broke. The wall of 20 finally fucking broke.

[The Black Forrest]

Boebert voted present.

And Gaetz is said to also have broke. The wall of 20 finally fucking broke.

Broke? More like got most of what they wanted. I think it was Gaetz who said they were running out of things to ask for…..

[Nora Xent]

And Gaetz is said to also have broke. The wall of 20 finally fucking broke.

Broke? More like got most of what they wanted. I think it was Gaetz who said they were running out of things to ask for…..

they got everything they wanted in what? The first round of negotiations? they all broke for some reason.

[Cannot think of a name]

I don’t get where the holdouts are going with this.

Originally I assumed it was just theater and that Gaetz, et al would fall in by the end of the week. But it seems like they’re burning all their bridges for no reason. Even if they succeed in getting someone other than McCarthy as speaker they’ll have alienated their colleagues in the Republican Party and once the new congress sits they’re going to be politically isolated.

Gaetz, with his personal baggage, has to know he’s on thin ice to begin with.

Strong arming concessions he knows he doesn't have the actual support for.