Germany arrests 25 far right coup plotters

[Denoidumbutoniurucwivobrs]

I don't really care about the planned coup since it's been foiled and dealt with already, but boy is this thread fun to read

[Tazazhia]

Objectively speaking, should Germany's present government be overthrown? I would say yes, the nation hasn't done well under them. Reopening coal power plants because they thought solar and wind to be more capable than nuclear? Letting the worst sort of immigration to occur?

It is too much indignity to bear. But unfortunately, it isn't currently a given that any replacement government will prove as capable or competent.

I would agree with this.

[Ifreann]

Objectively speaking, should Germany's present government be overthrown? I would say yes, the nation hasn't done well under them. Reopening coal power plants because they thought solar and wind to be more capable than nuclear? Letting the worst sort of immigration to occur?

It is too much indignity to bear. But unfortunately, it isn't currently a given that any replacement government will prove as capable or competent.

I would agree with this.

Hey, look! A new fascist.

[Free Algerstonia]

There's options other than talking to them or killing them. Like, imprisoning them, like what happened here.
Not necessarily saying I support that, but it's a sensible third option.

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?

I am going to take your advice and not debate you on this, but the hypocrisy in your post is painful to say the least.

It's not hypocrisy.

I don't dream of death camps where innocent people who shuffled into gas chambers and dumped in mass graves because their skull was the wrong size. Rather, I want to stop the people who do dream of those things because they're fucking evil. That you've chosen to side with them is very telling of where you stand on the matter.

Resistance to fascism is essential in safeguarding a healthy society, but blanket-attacking something which tends to be so vaguely defined with something as fundamentally immoral like the death penalty seems risky.

Figuring out the source (“capitalism” no doubt) is probably also a good approach instead of just bludgeoning the symptoms.

Capitalism is part of the problem, yes. Sapping the energy, hope, and will to live of working people leaves them disillusioned with the system; so they turn to more radical alternatives. On a good day they become Leftists and come to understand why exactly their life sucks and how the system is responsible. On a bad day a racist tells them that Jews, blacks, Feminists, Communists, and gays are making them miserable and are the "real" problem that needs to be dealt with.

Given the loss of vigor among the Left following the dissolution of the USSR, decades of anti-Communist suppression by Capitalist regimes, and the delusional copium spouted by modern Marxist-Leninists it's not a surprise that more people are turning to Fascism instead to express their frustration with the Capitalism system and all it's wrought.

we are opposites but similar, you always go into every thread to criticize neoliberalism from a communist perspective and always hijack the threads to discuss communism, and i always go into every thread to criticize neoliberalism from an antigovernment antiNWO freedom patriot perspective, wow

[The Selkie]

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?
[...]

And I never tire to say: History Channel is no replacement for a solid plan on how to handle history as a school subject. And, of course, the student listening to what the old sod at the screechie board is saying, but that is a given.

[Loeje]

I’m not really familiar with the details of Qanon - other than it was a troll of boomers that got vastly out of hand - but I didn’t think it had anything to do with Germany.

I blame social media. Germany has a surprising amount of weird conspiracy theorists, and I read about them every so often. A lot of it comes from America.

Edit: Now I actually read the article, and I'm not surprised about Reichsbürger. It's sad that these conspiracy theories have all been growing in influence, and hopefully this will shock enough people into going back to normal.

[Kalivyah]

There's options other than talking to them or killing them. Like, imprisoning them, like what happened here.
Not necessarily saying I support that, but it's a sensible third option.

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?

I am going to take your advice and not debate you on this, but the hypocrisy in your post is painful to say the least.

It's not hypocrisy.

I don't dream of death camps where innocent people who shuffled into gas chambers and dumped in mass graves because their skull was the wrong size. Rather, I want to stop the people who do dream of those things because they're fucking evil. That you've chosen to side with them is very telling of where you stand on the matter.

Resistance to fascism is essential in safeguarding a healthy society, but blanket-attacking something which tends to be so vaguely defined with something as fundamentally immoral like the death penalty seems risky.

Figuring out the source (“capitalism” no doubt) is probably also a good approach instead of just bludgeoning the symptoms.

Capitalism is part of the problem, yes. Sapping the energy, hope, and will to live of working people leaves them disillusioned with the system; so they turn to more radical alternatives. On a good day they become Leftists and come to understand why exactly their life sucks and how the system is responsible. On a bad day a racist tells them that Jews, blacks, Feminists, Communists, and gays are making them miserable and are the "real" problem that needs to be dealt with.

Given the loss of vigor among the Left following the dissolution of the USSR, decades of anti-Communist suppression by Capitalist regimes, and the delusional copium spouted by modern Marxist-Leninists it's not a surprise that more people are turning to Fascism instead to express their frustration with the Capitalism system and all it's wrought.

The problem lies less with Marxist-Leninists and more with the fact that the modern socialist movement has been hijacked by literal capitalists (such as in the case of modern day democratic socialists and "socialists of the 21st century" who both believe in the existence and preservation of private property, despite the fact that abolishment of private property was described by Marx himself as the most basic summary of communism). The bourgeoise have increasingly convinced the population that socialism is both a terrible system that kills billions of people per minute and ALSO that socialism is super great while in secret just advocating for social democracy (which as I've said previously is one step away from fascism).

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

By like, 3 people at most.

Yes and no. The whole "nazis were socialists" meme thing is pretty popular amongst the less educated.
Sadly there are slightly more than 3 of those.

No, that's not what they were references. Some people here have been telling me Social Democracy is fascistic because some people worked with hitler a century ago. The 3 I was referring to were Sordhau, Kalivyah, and Nikoleras (Nilokeras? one of those 2), the main people i've seen arguing that

[Forsher]

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?
[...]

And I never tire to say: History Channel is no replacement for a solid plan on how to handle history as a school subject. And, of course, the student listening to what the old sod at the screechie board is saying, but that is a given.

It should be noted that Hitler's judge was (a) a sympathiser, (b) gave him a very light sentence... though I am not sure if the length was light based on a Wikipedia fuelled refresh and (c) served barely a fifth of that sentence.

Hitler's trial and sentence simply does not offer any evidence that the court system can be used to suppress fascism. Frankly, it offers examples of how sympathetic judges can exercise political power whilst ostensibly following the law. Today we conduct terrorism trials essentially in secret and we certainly don't allow convicted terrorists to publish manifestos from prison.

[Forsher]

It’s basically the equivalent of a “sovereign citizen” in the US

My understanding of this is that they are neo-nazis LARPing as monarchists LARPing as Sovereign citizens.

It is probable, as with many events during the rise of Nazis, that there are multiple far right groups involved, each working together as they pursue (for now) mutually consistent ends. Certainly, the BBC explainer I read suggests that the Reichsbürger isn't a unified organisation at all:

Members don't recognise the post-war German state and reject the authority of its government. Despite the name, which translates to Citizens of the Reich, this is no organised national movement - rather a disparate set of small groups and individuals scattered across the country who are united in that shared belief.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63889792

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

There's options other than talking to them or killing them. Like, imprisoning them, like what happened here.
Not necessarily saying I support that, but it's a sensible third option.

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?

I am going to take your advice and not debate you on this, but the hypocrisy in your post is painful to say the least.

It's not hypocrisy.

I don't dream of death camps where innocent people who shuffled into gas chambers and dumped in mass graves because their skull was the wrong size. Rather, I want to stop the people who do dream of those things because they're fucking evil. That you've chosen to side with them is very telling of where you stand on the matter.

Resistance to fascism is essential in safeguarding a healthy society, but blanket-attacking something which tends to be so vaguely defined with something as fundamentally immoral like the death penalty seems risky.

Figuring out the source (“capitalism” no doubt) is probably also a good approach instead of just bludgeoning the symptoms.

Capitalism is part of the problem, yes. Sapping the energy, hope, and will to live of working people leaves them disillusioned with the system; so they turn to more radical alternatives. On a good day they become Leftists and come to understand why exactly their life sucks and how the system is responsible. On a bad day a racist tells them that Jews, blacks, Feminists, Communists, and gays are making them miserable and are the "real" problem that needs to be dealt with.

Given the loss of vigor among the Left following the dissolution of the USSR, decades of anti-Communist suppression by Capitalist regimes, and the delusional copium spouted by modern Marxist-Leninists it's not a surprise that more people are turning to Fascism instead to express their frustration with the Capitalism system and all it's wrought.

I specifically said "Not necessarily saying I support that" but go off, queen.

[Kalivyah]

Yes and no. The whole "nazis were socialists" meme thing is pretty popular amongst the less educated.
Sadly there are slightly more than 3 of those.

No, that's not what they were references. Some people here have been telling me Social Democracy is fascistic because some people worked with hitler a century ago. The 3 I was referring to were Sordhau, Kalivyah, and Nikoleras (Nilokeras? one of those 2), the main people i've seen arguing that

Hi. We don't consider social democracy "fascistic" because some guys worked with the Nazis a century ago. We consider your movement to be one level behind fascism because your ideology and stance on economics are concerningly similar.
- You both espouse a belief in corporatism, a collectivist economic system. In particular social democracy can be considered to be a form of "progressive corporatism". To quote:

"From the 1850s onward, progressive corporatism developed in response to classical liberalism and Marxism. These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle classes and working classes in order to secure cooperation among the classes. This was in opposition to the Marxist conception of class conflict. By the 1870s and 1880s, corporatism experienced a revival in Europe with the creation of workers' unions that were committed to negotiations with employers."

Sound familiar? Of course it does, and that brings me to my next point.

- Both of you reject class conflict in favor of class cooperation. "These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle and working classes in order to secure cooperation among the classes". Admittedly rights are worse under fascism, but when you realize that social democracy is but a pathetic last ditch attempt by the bourgeois' to remain in power before resulting to fascism... it makes sense.

- You both are opposed to communism and socialists. I don't mean that in the traditional "average American doesn't know what communism is but hate it" type way, I mean that as in "anti-communism is a direct and indisputable part of your ideology that cannot be removed".

- You both present yourselves as an alternative to Marxism and capitalism.

- Social democracy is responsible for collaborating numerous times with far-right or reactionary nationalist groups to destroy any attempts that the genuine Marxist and socialist movement has had of revolution (such as in the case of the Spartakist rising when you sided with proto-fascists over the socialists).

We don't hate social democracy because "Some guys sided with Hitler!". We hate social democracy because it's literally just fascism without the ultranationalism and dictatorship. Other than that, you are pretty much identical in the way social democracy presents itself, functions, and advertises itself. Fascism is fundamentally social democracy at its worse- a system that remains populist but does not grant rights and takes them away instead, all for the benefit of the bourgeoise.

[The Selkie]

And I never tire to say: History Channel is no replacement for a solid plan on how to handle history as a school subject. And, of course, the student listening to what the old sod at the screechie board is saying, but that is a given.

It should be noted that Hitler's judge was (a) a sympathiser, (b) gave him a very light sentence... though I am not sure if the length was light based on a Wikipedia fuelled refresh and (c) served barely a fifth of that sentence.

Hitler's trial and sentence simply does not offer any evidence that the court system can be used to suppress fascism. Frankly, it offers examples of how sympathetic judges can exercise political power whilst ostensibly following the law. Today we conduct terrorism trials essentially in secret and we certainly don't allow convicted terrorists to publish manifestos from prison.

And there is a reason for that. Because we learned.
But regardless of that, I was not referring to Hitler's trial. His rise to power in general was far more complicated and had far more reasons then "He wrote a book in prison, which actually didn't sell too well until he became Chancellor, at which point he himself dismissed the book." (ca. 240k copies between 1925 and 1933, for comparison Remarque's Im Westen nichts Neues sold 450,000 copies in 11 weeks (German article, second praragraph).
A good history subject could enlighten students as to what these reasons were, what the effects were and when to draw the Hitler-Parallel and when not to and, most importantly, how to deal with it without resorting to killing the people who's opinion you don't like (like the Nazis did ; )).

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

No, that's not what they were references. Some people here have been telling me Social Democracy is fascistic because some people worked with hitler a century ago. The 3 I was referring to were Sordhau, Kalivyah, and Nikoleras (Nilokeras? one of those 2), the main people i've seen arguing that

Hi. We don't consider social democracy "fascistic" because some guys worked with the Nazis a century ago. We consider your movement to be one level behind fascism because your ideology and stance on economics are concerningly similar.
- You both espouse a belief in corporatism, a collectivist economic system. In particular social democracy can be considered to be a form of "progressive corporatism". To quote:

"From the 1850s onward, progressive corporatism developed in response to classical liberalism and Marxism. These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle classes and working classes in order to secure cooperation among the classes. This was in opposition to the Marxist conception of class conflict. By the 1870s and 1880s, corporatism experienced a revival in Europe with the creation of workers' unions that were committed to negotiations with employers."

Sound familiar? Of course it does, and that brings me to my next point.

- Both of you reject class conflict in favor of class cooperation. "These corporatists supported providing group rights to members of the middle and working classes in order to secure cooperation among the classes". Admittedly rights are worse under fascism, but when you realize that social democracy is but a pathetic last ditch attempt by the bourgeois' to remain in power before resulting to fascism... it makes sense.

- You both are opposed to communism and socialists. I don't mean that in the traditional "average American doesn't know what communism is but hate it" type way, I mean that as in "anti-communism is a direct and indisputable part of your ideology that cannot be removed".

- You both present yourselves as an alternative to Marxism and capitalism.

- Social democracy is responsible for collaborating numerous times with far-right or reactionary nationalist groups to destroy any attempts that the genuine Marxist and socialist movement has had of revolution (such as in the case of the Spartakist rising when you sided with proto-fascists over the socialists).

We don't hate social democracy because "Some guys sided with Hitler!". We hate social democracy because it's literally just fascism without the ultranationalism and dictatorship. Other than that, you are pretty much identical in the way social democracy presents itself, functions, and advertises itself. Fascism is fundamentally social democracy at its worse- a system that remains populist but does not grant rights and takes them away instead, all for the benefit of the bourgeoise.

Not writing a massive thing to this. Short points only. All you deserve.

We don't believe in Corperatism nor does our economic beliefs resemble Fascism's in any meaningful way.

Virtually every ideology besides Communism supports class cooperation. Basically, "Everyone's a fascist besides us".

We don't? We support a type of capitalism. Really not sure where you got that from.

One case. Any others? Specifically, any case that was recent enough to be relevant in any fucking way?

Lmao at this. We present ourselves as a democratic, egalitarian form of Capitalism, in a simple way. Fascism doesn't present themselves as that at all. We function radically different, so much so that i'm confident you came up with the "SocDem is Fascism" argument and them made up the justification later. We advertise ourselves as a better alternative to Laizzes-Faire capitalism, which, I guess is sorta similar to fascism, but Communism also advertises itself as a better alternative to capitalism, so... What?
Also, Ultranationalism and Dictatorship are like, the 2 biggest things in Fascism. That's like saying "Communism is like (Laizzes-Faire) Capitalism without the exploitation". That's like, most of the ideology.
Grow up. If you're gonna hate Social Democracy, do it for a reason that makes sense.

[Kalivyah]

We don't believe in Corperatism nor does our economic beliefs resemble Fascism's in any meaningful way.

And capitalism also "doesn't believe in exploiting millions of people". You may think that you don't believe in corporatism but the way social democracy is ran economically is quite similar to "progressive corporatism"... which I provided an explanation of.

Virtually every ideology besides Communism supports class cooperation. Basically, "Everyone's a fascist besides us".

Class cooperation is a significant, indisputable, and inseparable part of both social democracy and fascism. It's what sets them apart from other ideologies to their target demographic. Yes, most ideologies support class cooperation... but my point was that social democracy and fascism construct their identity AROUND the idea of class cooperation.

We don't? We support a type of capitalism. Really not sure where you got that from.

I'm confused about this. Your points seem to be out of order which is unfortunate... but I'll try my best at figuring out what section this is referring to.
Corporatism is a form of capitalism. It is fundamentally capitalistic in character, the only difference being that corporatism espouses collectivism at some strange attempt at being populist. You're right in the fact that you support a type of capitalism... that capitalism just so happens to be corporatism.

One case. Any others? Specifically, any case that was recent enough to be relevant in any fucking way?

Social democrats tend to side with reactionary capitalist groups then the ones that actually care about giving workers rights and freedom from exploitation. There's "one case" because it's a significant case and an example of how social democrats (particularly the ruling ones) will always side with the right over the left.

Lmao at this. We present ourselves as a democratic, egalitarian form of Capitalism, in a simple way. Fascism doesn't present themselves as that at all.

Once again missing my point. I noted that social democracy was two steps away from fascism, not that it was fascism. Social democracy is the penultimate attempt by the bourgeoise to retain control over society before outright expending and throwing away democracy entirely. You are democratic, sure... but most capitalist movements also present themselves as "democratic". Nothing changes under your system regarding the exploitation of the working class and people. No matter if a social democrat or a free market capitalist is elected, none of you provide any meaningful change. "Egalitarianism" is also not possible under capitalism because it directly goes against the ideology of capitalism.

We function radically different, so much so that i'm confident you came up with the "SocDem is Fascism" argument and them made up the justification later. We advertise ourselves as a better alternative to Laizzes-Faire capitalism, which, I guess is sorta similar to fascism, but Communism also advertises itself as a better alternative to capitalism, so... What?

Politically, yes, you do fuction different! Social democracy supports democracy in the bourgeois sense where the candidates pretty much uphold the status quo and don't provide any meaningful change. Fascism straight up just does not have any democracy and upholds the status quo without resorting to arbitrary ideas of "democracy" to justify it and explain it to the populace. As for the alternative to Laissez-Faire capitalism... that kind of just proves my point that fascism and social democracy are identical in that regard. The difference between social democracy and fascism regarding capitalism is that social democracy says that it wants to "humanize capitalism" while still calling themselves capitalist while fascism straight up is just capitalist but denies that it is with an IMMENSE amount of copium constantly being shoved down its throat. Like I said, capitalism goes from a "democratic" form to appease the gullible of the working class to full blown autocracy when the working class violently reject its ideas.
The difference between the communist saying that their system is better than capitalism and you saying that your system is better than capitalism is that one is literally not capitalist and thus does not uphold the status quo while you do. We are not the same.

Also, Ultranationalism and Dictatorship are like, the 2 biggest things in Fascism. That's like saying "Communism is like (Laizzes-Faire) Capitalism without the exploitation". That's like, most of the ideology.

Hi, I have experience in this area considering I used to be a fascist. Fascism is not just "ultranationalism and dictatorship". It goes far, FAR beyond that. Fascism is a collectivist ultranationalist and culturally far-right political ideology which advocates for a society based on corporatist economics in opposition to both communism "and capitalism", usually organized and controlled under a one-party state ruled by a dictator. To summarize that up into points, Fascism requires:
- Collectivism
- Anti-communism and ""anti-capitalism""
- Ultranationalism
- Societal organization based on corporatism
- Organization and control under an oppressive totalitarian one-party state, led by a dictator.
"But what about Stalin?!". He was a one time thing. Hitler and Mussolini and Franco and all the other fascistic fuckheads to have ruled were not one time things. Communism is against the idea of dictatorship while fascism actively embraces it with open arms and passionately makes sweet love to it.

Grow up. If you're gonna hate Social Democracy, do it for a reason that makes sense.

Define "what makes sense"? I provided you with a rather detailed explanation of why we hate social democracy. Truly, what is the definition of "makes sense" here. What distinguishes a reason that makes sense vs one that doesn't? I would say that "I do not like social democracy because it upholds the status quo and is strikingly similar to fascism" is a reason that makes sense when compared to "I do not like social democracy cuz its bad".

One day I hope that you'll be able to come up with a meaningful argument, and I hope that one day you realize that you are being duped by the bourgeoise. Wake up, comrade. It is time for you to take a turn to the left, rather than the right.

[Portzania]

There's options other than talking to them or killing them. Like, imprisoning them, like what happened here.
Not necessarily saying I support that, but it's a sensible third option.

Because that really stopped Hitler, huh?

I am going to take your advice and not debate you on this, but the hypocrisy in your post is painful to say the least.

It's not hypocrisy.

I don't dream of death camps where innocent people who shuffled into gas chambers and dumped in mass graves because their skull was the wrong size. Rather, I want to stop the people who do dream of those things because they're fucking evil. That you've chosen to side with them is very telling of where you stand on the matter.

Resistance to fascism is essential in safeguarding a healthy society, but blanket-attacking something which tends to be so vaguely defined with something as fundamentally immoral like the death penalty seems risky.

Figuring out the source (“capitalism” no doubt) is probably also a good approach instead of just bludgeoning the symptoms.

Capitalism is part of the problem, yes. Sapping the energy, hope, and will to live of working people leaves them disillusioned with the system; so they turn to more radical alternatives. On a good day they become Leftists and come to understand why exactly their life sucks and how the system is responsible. On a bad day a racist tells them that Jews, blacks, Feminists, Communists, and gays are making them miserable and are the "real" problem that needs to be dealt with.

Given the loss of vigor among the Left following the dissolution of the USSR, decades of anti-Communist suppression by Capitalist regimes, and the delusional copium spouted by modern Marxist-Leninists it's not a surprise that more people are turning to Fascism instead to express their frustration with the Capitalism system and all it's wrought.

God, this is like talking to a brick wall that also throws out dozens of strawmans when you attempt to communicate with it

[El Lazaro]

- You both present yourselves as an alternative to Marxism and capitalism.

Not only is that blatantly untrue outside of 20th century fascists who thought the word “socialism” sounded cool, politically illiterate populists, and Tony Blair, but it’s also entirely meaningless. Fascists and social democrats also claim to oppose anarchy and primitivism too, as does almost everyone.

[Kalivyah]

- You both present yourselves as an alternative to Marxism and capitalism.

Not only is that blatantly untrue outside of 20th century fascists who thought the word “socialism” sounded cool, politically illiterate populists, and Tony Blair, but it’s also entirely meaningless. Fascists and social democrats also claim to oppose anarchy and primitivism too, as does almost everyone.

What?

[Platoon of Peace]

This isn't a communism debate thread, guys. Can we stop turning this into one?

[The Lone Alliance]

History Repeats, first as a tragedy second as a farce, this is the farce.
I don't think these idiots are going to seize power in Germany any time soon.

[Vikanias]

Theory: it was CIA backed

[Sordhau]

Theory: it was CIA backed

...Yes, clearly the CIA was trying to install a Fascist dictatorship in one of it's closest allies.

Because that makes sense.

[Rusozak]

Theory: it was CIA backed

...Yes, clearly the CIA was trying to install a Fascist dictatorship in one of it's closest allies.

Because that makes sense.

Yeah, what is this, a South American country that elected a socialist?

[El Lazaro]

Theory: it was CIA backed

Theory: the GSG-9 is CIA backed and Germany is just a forward operating base for the US military.

I mean, nahhh, that one actually makes sense so it can’t be true.

[The Black Forrest]

Theory: it was CIA backed

Uh Vikanias? You forgot to get off at the 1960s stop.