Boys State

[Komuniste]

I'll be going to Boys State (no I won't tell you which state ) this summer.

However, I've been reading their Constitution, and, frankly, it's SHIT. The Boys State Constitution (at least for my state, I don't know if it's different for other states) makes several blatant references to God in addition to mandating state prayer, it's economically set up to be a disaster*, and it makes people enforce the law as one of the most common punishments for breaking it (obviously asking for trouble). There is even a provision against filing a lawsuit (that is, in Boys State court) in which Boy State itself would be the defendant, so I can't change the law by suing them for blatantly violating the First Ammendment of the US Constitution (which the Boys State Constitution is supposedly under the jurisdiction of). In addition, I'm pretty sure they mentioned in the orientation that MIKE HUCKABEE will be one of the keynote speakers, and I've read in the past that Boys State has had an overwhelmingly conservative population as it primarily recruits from the jock class of smal rural high schools.

*Specfically, there is a provision forbidding people from selling goods or services at a price higher than the average price of similar goods (business caught selling goods above the average price are immediately shut down and forever forbidden from doing business again in Boys State). This, of course, is mathematically impossible to do unless all the prices were precisely equal, and even then, it'd be incredibly easy for anyone to force the prices down simply by lowering their own prices, while making it impossible to raise prices without every single businessman agreeing to a new price. Ordinarily, I'd assume this was a cleverly concealed communist plot to destroy the business sector so state can step in in the aftermath and run a completely state-owned economy, however, unfortunately, there is also a provision forbidding the legislature from creating a government corporation of any sort.

Anyone have any idea as to what I can do, besides what I currently have planned? My current plans are:

1.) Crush Mike Huckabee in a debate during the questioning session after he speaks. He's a total moron, from what I've researched about him, so it shouldn't be too hard. I expect to be able to strike a small blow to his campaign - being humiliated publicly by a 17-year-old isn't exactly good for one's political career, after all.

2.) If they try to require me to pray or swear an oath, I will do so in the name of Satan. While I don't worship Satan, I do admire him as the only being to have directly defied Yahweh and lived, so if anyone could make a good god, it's him.

3.) Sue the churches (in the Boys State legal system, not in a real lawsuit) if they insist on forcing me to go to a church service. I can't sue Boys State, but I CAN sue the churches, I think. (I'm not sure if I'll have to do this. They stated in the orientation that we would be REQUIRED to go to a church service (and they only offer Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish), but the Boys State Constitution explicitly says otherwise)

4.) Of course, I'm running for office. However, if the reviews of the population of Boys State are correct, I probably won't get very far.


Anyone have any more information on Boys State and/or ideas of ways to change the system?

[Rolamec]

Well if you dislike many parts of it. You don't have to go. If your being forced by your parents and thus underage, well that's how the law works. But when your older, should you have kids, don't send them there. Better yet, try to get a job there and move for reform.

Personally if I had the choice, I couldn't care. God references don't offend me.

[Lackadaisical2]

*Specfically, there is a provision forbidding people from selling goods or services at a price higher than the average price of similar goods (business caught selling goods above the average price are immediately shut down and forever forbidden from doing business again in Boys State).

Meaning everyone must sell at the exact same price, and it'd be real cool to put everyone out of business by selling something for 1 cent less than everyone else was selling it at. The rest is just TL;DR.

[Komuniste]

Oh, no, I WANT to go so I can forward my own agenda. The worst thing they can do to me is kick me out. And plus, I'm already signed up, so I have to go no matter what.

[Sun Aut Ex]

Sounds like you're from Ohio, since as far as I cal tell, they're the only one enforcing Christianity. I could be wrong.

[Blouman Empire]

What is Boys State?

[Nobel Hobos]

Damn. I read the title, and I thought it was a radical proposition for some kind of Logan's Run country. But for gays.

Why in hell would you go to a summer camp which isn't co-educational?

[Nobel Hobos]

What is Boys State?

There's a Girl's State, too!

[Cobhanglica]

Why are you going if you hate it so much? Don't go just to cause trouble.

[Komuniste]

You're both wrong. Please don't try to guess my state.

As a note, they don't necessarily enforce Christianty, they enforce some sort of ultra-patriotic monotheistic cult that mimics American Christianity (it's pretty much the same gooey hollow religiosity you see in Boy Scouts, from wha I gather) - their prayers are JUST vague enough for me to assume ANY god in place of "God," hence my plan to become a Satanist if they try to get me to do any prayers or oaths (it's obvious they were implying that "God" is the Christian god, but I can nitpick the law).

[Nobel Hobos]

You're both wrong. Please don't try to guess my state.

As a note, they don't necessarily enforce Christianty, they enforce some sort of ultra-patriotic monotheistic cult that mimics American Christianity (it's pretty much the same gooey hollow religiosity you see in Boy Scouts, from wha I gather) - their prayers are JUST vague enough for me to assume ANY god in place of "God," hence my plan to become a Satanist if they try to get me to do any prayers or oaths (it's obvious they were implying that "God" is the Christian god, but I can nitpick the law).

This might be your idea of fun, but if it was me I'd spend my summer working 15 hours a week in a shitty casual job, and learning to surf.

[Komuniste]

Dang, you guys are replying fast...

I'll say it again: I don't hate the program, I hate the law governing it. For those of you who don't know, Boys State is essentially a political microstate that recruits high school students to go to it for a week to learn about politics and government. You can run for offices, hold political rallies, hold protests (I assume), and the student-elected legislature somehow makes the laws. If I can somehow get my followers (if I have any) to gain a 75% majority in the legislature, we could rewrite the entire Constitution. I believe that although my cause is hopeless, I must try; who knows, maybe the charming anti-Christian guy who's obsessed with politics might, with the power of his superior reasoning and knowledge, convince the population to vote for him.

Somehow, Boys State is widely thought of as one of the best educational programs for government in the country, and it's also worth a college credit in political science.

I WILL go to cause "trouble," as you say. I want to cause a scene. I want to get the press all over these guys, and I want to build a name for myself.
Also, I don't have a choice anymore. I signed up before I found out all this stuff about the program, and I can't change my mind about going. I would still go anyway just to verify the reviews and attempt to create a controversy.

[Parnassus]

Hmm. I went to Boys State (about 20 years ago). I don't remember anything related to religion at all - but, it wouldn't have bothered me then, so it's entirely possible that there was some element that I was ok with.

Most of what I remember is trying to hang out with a bunch of people I had never met before, playing sports, and sitting in classrooms to talk about government. We ran for and voted in elections every day we were there - the first time just a few hours after we showed up.

The governor's campaign session centered around some guest speakers who were Vietnam Vets and used their speeches to bitch about Jane Fonda. Then we went home. There wasn't a lot of time to file lawsuits in the courts - specifically because we didn't vote on state judges until the next to last day.

I think if you're going for the purpose of stirring things up, you're going to be disappointed and miserable most of the week.

[Querinos]

I'll be going to Boys State (no I won't tell you which state ) this summer.

1.) Crush Mike Huckabee in a debate during the questioning session after he speaks. He's a total moron, from what I've researched about him, so it shouldn't be too hard. I expect to be able to strike a small blow to his campaign - being humiliated publicly by a 17-year-old isn't exactly good for one's political career, after all.

Awesome.

2.) If they try to require me to pray or swear an oath, I will do so in the name of Satan. While I don't worship Satan, I do admire him as the only being to have directly defied Yahweh and lived, so if anyone could make a good god, it's him.

Here is a good quick example of His prayer.

"Father Satan, my dark lord and master. I call to you from the deepst parts of Hell, I praise your name with every breath of my body, I worship you with every fibre of my being. You shown me what true strength is. you have shown me what true free will is. Out of the darkness you came to show, me the true light.
My Keeper, my Lover and my Lord what a great gift that is.
Hail to the King, baby."

3.) Sue the churches (in the Boys State legal system, not in a real lawsuit) if they insist on forcing me to go to a church service. I can't sue Boys State, but I CAN sue the churches, I think. (I'm not sure if I'll have to do this. They stated in the orientation that we would be REQUIRED to go to a church service (and they only offer Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish), but the Boys State Constitution explicitly says otherwise)

Always good to have a back-up plan.

4.) Of course, I'm running for office. However, if the reviews of the population of Boys State are correct, I probably won't get very far.

In all Boys State sounds like a creepier version of The Boy Scouts... Anyway, if their is one thing I know it's always best to carry a camera; to blackmail others later. Welcome to politics.

[Scarsaw]

Oh, no, I WANT to go so I can forward my own agenda. The worst thing they can do to me is kick me out. And plus, I'm already signed up, so I have to go no matter what.

Wait you want to go there? Well then...stop bitching about it.

[The Zoogie People]

Dang, you guys are replying fast...

I'll say it again: I don't hate the program, I hate the law governing it. For those of you who don't know, Boys State is essentially a political microstate that recruits high school students to go to it for a week to learn about politics and government. You can run for offices, hold political rallies, hold protests (I assume), and the student-elected legislature somehow makes the laws. If I can somehow get my followers (if I have any) to gain a 75% majority in the legislature, we could rewrite the entire Constitution. I believe that although my cause is hopeless, I must try; who knows, maybe the charming anti-Christian guy who's obsessed with politics might, with the power of his superior reasoning and knowledge, convince the population to vote for him.

Somehow, Boys State is widely thought of as one of the best educational programs for government in the country, and it's also worth a college credit in political science.

I WILL go to cause "trouble," as you say. I want to cause a scene. I want to get the press all over these guys, and I want to build a name for myself.
Also, I don't have a choice anymore. I signed up before I found out all this stuff about the program, and I can't change my mind about going. I would still go anyway just to verify the reviews and attempt to create a controversy.

Nah, is that worth it?

You can hold your own political beliefs - and I'd agree with a good deal of them, I'd guess - but you can't go into anything with that kind of attitude and expect a fruitful result. You can't have the attitude of "I'm right, and these guys are so wrong they're stupid and pathetic."

Go in, make friends, debate, and maybe win some people to your side by being persuasive and leading by example - namely, showing a level of open-mindedness. Don't go in there thinking you're just going to show everyone up with your superior philosophy, 'cos that's not gonna happen. Even people who hold flawed (and that's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?) beliefs are sometimes very intelligent. You don't want to show them that they're wrong, you want them to be less blindly convicted to certain things and then maybe find out for themselves that they're wrong. Because if you do the former, you just make them stick to their guns even more. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish.

I went to Boys State too, something like four or five years ago. It was a good time and the food was excellent. The patriotic theme was pretty prevalent I'd say but mostly it was just a bunch of dudes goofing off and having fun. Make it a fun week, you might find some people you'll keep in touch with for a long time. (Or maybe not ) Lots of good people there.

To be honest though, either I completely didn't pay attention to the constitution or none of those elements were in there for us. I never really got the sense it was super religious/conservative. Although one guy who was a Mormon had some campaign posters torn down, so I guess there was some hate there that I didn't really see, because the rest of us loved the guy.

We never had to pray or anything either. There was some flag ceremony every morning if I recall. Mostly, it was just a fun week on a pretty nice campus. It's a pretty sweet deal. Don't sweat the small stuff.

The disclaimer of course is that each state runs things differently, so my experience might be different from yours. Just out of curiosity, how did you get to go? Did you have to apply? It's really worth a college credit in poli sci? Ha, that's a bit rich, considering it's just camp.

[Blouman Empire]

Dang, you guys are replying fast...

I'll say it again: I don't hate the program, I hate the law governing it. For those of you who don't know, Boys State is essentially a political microstate that recruits high school students to go to it for a week to learn about politics and government. You can run for offices, hold political rallies, hold protests (I assume), and the student-elected legislature somehow makes the laws. If I can somehow get my followers (if I have any) to gain a 75% majority in the legislature, we could rewrite the entire Constitution. I believe that although my cause is hopeless, I must try; who knows, maybe the charming anti-Christian guy who's obsessed with politics might, with the power of his superior reasoning and knowledge, convince the population to vote for him.

Somehow, Boys State is widely thought of as one of the best educational programs for government in the country, and it's also worth a college credit in political science.

I WILL go to cause "trouble," as you say. I want to cause a scene. I want to get the press all over these guys, and I want to build a name for myself.
Also, I don't have a choice anymore. I signed up before I found out all this stuff about the program, and I can't change my mind about going. I would still go anyway just to verify the reviews and attempt to create a controversy.

That sounds a lot of fun.

[Alquerque]

boo to what appears to be a statist mentality on the part of this institute

[Komuniste]

Dang, you guys are replying fast...

I'll say it again: I don't hate the program, I hate the law governing it. For those of you who don't know, Boys State is essentially a political microstate that recruits high school students to go to it for a week to learn about politics and government. You can run for offices, hold political rallies, hold protests (I assume), and the student-elected legislature somehow makes the laws. If I can somehow get my followers (if I have any) to gain a 75% majority in the legislature, we could rewrite the entire Constitution. I believe that although my cause is hopeless, I must try; who knows, maybe the charming anti-Christian guy who's obsessed with politics might, with the power of his superior reasoning and knowledge, convince the population to vote for him.

Somehow, Boys State is widely thought of as one of the best educational programs for government in the country, and it's also worth a college credit in political science.

I WILL go to cause "trouble," as you say. I want to cause a scene. I want to get the press all over these guys, and I want to build a name for myself.
Also, I don't have a choice anymore. I signed up before I found out all this stuff about the program, and I can't change my mind about going. I would still go anyway just to verify the reviews and attempt to create a controversy.

Nah, is that worth it?

You can hold your own political beliefs - and I'd agree with a good deal of them, I'd guess - but you can't go into anything with that kind of attitude and expect a fruitful result. You can't have the attitude of "I'm right, and these guys are so wrong they're stupid and pathetic."

Go in, make friends, debate, and maybe win some people to your side by being persuasive and leading by example - namely, showing a level of open-mindedness. Don't go in there thinking you're just going to show everyone up with your superior philosophy, 'cos that's not gonna happen. Even people who hold flawed (and that's in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?) beliefs are sometimes very intelligent. You don't want to show them that they're wrong, you want them to be less blindly convicted to certain things and then maybe find out for themselves that they're wrong. Because if you do the former, you just make them stick to their guns even more. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish.

Don't worry, I know that persuasion pushes an agenda better than screaming - how do you think I realized as a child that my family's conservative beliefs were wrong?
I don't intend to act like I'm better than everyone else, although people may form that opinion on their own. I just intend to prove myself right in every aspect, which shouldn't be too hard seeing that most of my debates will likely be with normal high school boys (keep in mind that I'm one in about a handful of people from college instead of high school there, not to mention that I read stuff about politics for fun on a regular basis). For example, a conversation might go like this:

Me: "I've read the constitution, and I've decided to campaign againt the (insert whatever section/number the ammendment that forbids the govt from establishing a state corporation is in) ammendment. It's distinctly capitalistic and I believe that the government, being a body of people, has just as much right as any other body of people to form a corporation."
They: "Omg, this guy's, like, a socialist or something!"
Me: "Darn right I am! And what's wrong with that?"
They: "Socialism means (insert some misconception about socialism here)!!!"
Me: "No, no, socialism is the economically sound principle that the workers should own the means of production. I believe that capitalism is doomed to collapse due to the fact that wealth is siphoned to the upper class in the form of profit. Since the capitalist has to sell goods for a price higher than what he paid his workers to make them, there will be an increasing wealth gap between the rich and the poor, similar to what we have been seeing since the corrupt presidency of that foul Ronald Reagan. This, of course, will eventually cause the system to topple as the worker becomes too poor to even afford his own produce."
They: "Did you just insult RONALD REAGAN?!?"
Me: "Yes, I did. He was our worst president ever, and arguably the most corrupt. (Go on to talk about the Iran-Contra Scandal, the officials under Reagan that were convicted of various charges, stupid things that Reagan said, how Reagan actually wrecked the economy, etc)"

Regardless of whether or not there actually ARE arguing points against my claims, it's highly unlikely that these people are going to known them. Most young conservatives are only conservative because they were raised that way, and never really thought about it. I want to make them think about it.

Here is a good quick example of His prayer.

"Father Satan, my dark lord and master. I call to you from the deepst parts of Hell, I praise your name with every breath of my body, I worship you with every fibre of my being. You shown me what true strength is. you have shown me what true free will is. Out of the darkness you came to show, me the true light.
My Keeper, my Lover and my Lord what a great gift that is.
Hail to the King, baby."

Nice, thanks. Although I think they have a pre-set prayer... I'll just have to replace the word "God" with "Satan" or "Lucifer" if they don't let me do this.

[Blouman Empire]

snip.

Wait, you're in college and you are going to camp with a bunch of high schoolers?

[Zoharland]

*snip*

ZOMG SO THEY'RE RELIGIOUS SO WHAT? GET OVER YOURSELF MIKE HUCKABEE WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH YOU IN A DEBATE HELL ANYONE PROBABLY COULD, ARROGANT INTERNET LIBERAL. YOU JUST CAN'T STAND TO SEE PEOPLE HAPPY CAN YOU?

[Kamsaki]

1.) Crush Mike Huckabee in a debate during the questioning session after he speaks. He's a total moron, from what I've researched about him, so it shouldn't be too hard. I expect to be able to strike a small blow to his campaign - being humiliated publicly by a 17-year-old isn't exactly good for one's political career, after all.

I would seriously recommend doing a trial run of that here before jumping straight in. Bear the following thought in mind: Huckabee will rightly dismiss your question if it is seen as too aggressive, but will shoot it down and refuse you the right to reply if it has an obvious answer.

Don't go in with the presumption of trying to "win" - the intent must be to find some vulnerability he's never before defended and make him defend it, whether he does so successfully or not.

[Komuniste]

*snip*

ZOMG SO THEY'RE RELIGIOUS SO WHAT? GET OVER YOURSELF MIKE HUCKABEE WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH YOU IN A DEBATE HELL ANYONE PROBABLY COULD, ARROGANT INTERNET LIBERAL. YOU JUST CAN'T STAND TO SEE PEOPLE HAPPY CAN YOU?

... Oh goody, some practice!

Very well then sir, I contend that Mike Huckabee is an idiot, and that anyone could debate him. Do you realize that he himself has advocated the integration of Church and State? This is not only blatantly unconstitutional, but outright stupid, assuming he's talking about his Church. He's a biblical literalist and proud of it. This would mean that he believes that Noah's Flood was literally and that it really happened, he believes that Samson was real, he believes that the Lord raised dead people one time for a prophet (I think it was Elija. Maybe Elisha, I sometimes get them mixed up), he believes that Jesus really rose from the dead, he believes that Paul really shrugged off snake wounds, and he believes that "soon," the world will end in a bizarre fantasy-like way as portrayed in Revelation. He also believes that homosexuality is somehow a sin (even if only going by the new testament). These, of course, are based on the assumption that he takes his Bible as seriously as he claims he does.

Also, I am not some "arrogant internet liberal." I might be arrogant, but that's because I too often find I can back my views up.

And no, I don't have a problem with people being hapy. I have a problem with people being oppressed by your evil religion.

(Btw, this wouldn't apply in real life, but typing your entire post in caps makes you look like a moron.)

[Komuniste]

1.) Crush Mike Huckabee in a debate during the questioning session after he speaks. He's a total moron, from what I've researched about him, so it shouldn't be too hard. I expect to be able to strike a small blow to his campaign - being humiliated publicly by a 17-year-old isn't exactly good for one's political career, after all.

I would seriously recommend doing a trial run of that here before jumping straight in. Bear the following thought in mind: Huckabee will rightly dismiss your question if it is seen as too aggressive, but will shoot it down and refuse you the right to reply if it has an obvious answer.

Don't go in with the presumption of trying to "win" - the intent must be to find some vulnerability he's never before defended and make him defend it, whether he does so successfully or not.

Hmm. Good idea, I haven't thought of that. You're right, he would shout me down if it was too obvious that my intent was to harm his campaign. I need, like you say, to find some sort of weakness that I can strike him down with in a quick blitzkrieg.

[Blouman Empire]

And no, I don't have a problem with people being hapy. I have a problem with people being oppressed by your evil religion.

How does this Boys State even come close to oppressing people?