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Capitalism: Take it or leave it?

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Capitalism: Take it or leave it?

Take it
71
53%
Leave it
64
47%
 
Total votes : 135

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Ausgebombt
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 410
Founded: May 23, 2010
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Postby Ausgebombt » Tue May 25, 2010 12:40 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA


I'm sorry? Charitable contributions come from personal incomes. Not from China.


And those personal incomes are all generated from jobs, those jobs are generated by corporations, blah blah blah, all ties back into China, broski.
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Maurepas wrote:I'd feel little less Anti-American-Marixist, if I felt America was worth a damn thing anymore.



".223 body penetration before you hit the ground."
-Ausgebombt Proverb.

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Sibirsky
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Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 12:41 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?


Please read the third word in your link. I'l make it easier for you. GOVERNMENT. We are talking about private donations. Leave this China shit alone.
Last edited by Sibirsky on Tue May 25, 2010 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

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Self--Esteem
Minister
 
Posts: 3245
Founded: Mar 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Self--Esteem » Tue May 25, 2010 12:41 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?


China? Communist? Sorry, but :lol2: :rofl:

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Sibirsky
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Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
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Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 12:43 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA


I'm sorry? Charitable contributions come from personal incomes. Not from China.


And those personal incomes are all generated from jobs, those jobs are generated by corporations, blah blah blah, all ties back into China, broski.


The American jobs are tied to China? Elaborate.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

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The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 12:45 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?

And we are doing so because of failed socialist policies and foreign interventionism that runs completely parallel to Capitalist thought. The US is taking out debts to pay for it's bloated government spending, not the individual's personal debt, as I said before this is very much an argument against socialism, rather then for it. The USA for all it's capitalist banter is only so much further on the free market index then other mixed markets, too much spending a misguided and misdirected hope of helping the disadvantaged and the complete lunacy of a populace which has discovered it can vote more money to their hands.
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

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Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue May 25, 2010 12:45 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?

I was clearly referring to gross debt, which at 87.3% of GDP gives China less than 10% (14.4 Trillion * 0.873 =12.57, 877.5/12,570= 0.0698 or 6.98%)

again, this is actually off topic...

If we want to see how this would effect our economy: its only about 6%, so yes, they have financed 6% of our economy, its not great, but its hardly anything they can manipulate us with.
Last edited by Lackadaisical2 on Tue May 25, 2010 12:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

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The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 12:48 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA


I'm sorry? Charitable contributions come from personal incomes. Not from China.


And those personal incomes are all generated from jobs, those jobs are generated by corporations, blah blah blah, all ties back into China, broski.

That is an absolutely terrible argument, if this weren't a good computer I'd toss it out of pure WTF'ery. So every US job is dependent on China? I severely doubt it, especially as China is almost entirely employed for the US.

Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

User avatar
Ausgebombt
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 410
Founded: May 23, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Ausgebombt » Tue May 25, 2010 12:48 am

Self--Esteem wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?


China? Communist? Sorry, but :lol2: :rofl:


A government that has about a million different procedures you have to sift through to set up a buisness is not Capitalist, if that is what you are implying. The idea has been brought up before that there is no 'pure' political ideology. China is no different.

Please read the third word in your link. I'l make it easier for you. GOVERNMENT. We are talking about private donations. Live this China shit alone.


And what do you think is government, to you, specifically? Yes, the American government might owe money to China, but does that mean it is not Capitalist? After all, is it not the very same institution that has supported a laissez-faire, free-market for centuries?

Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?
Last edited by Ausgebombt on Tue May 25, 2010 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ausgebombt Factbook!
Maurepas wrote:I'd feel little less Anti-American-Marixist, if I felt America was worth a damn thing anymore.



".223 body penetration before you hit the ground."
-Ausgebombt Proverb.

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Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 12:59 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY
Last edited by Sibirsky on Tue May 25, 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

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The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 1:07 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

User avatar
Self--Esteem
Minister
 
Posts: 3245
Founded: Mar 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Self--Esteem » Tue May 25, 2010 1:08 am

Ausgebombt wrote:
Self--Esteem wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?


China? Communist? Sorry, but :lol2: :rofl:


A government that has about a million different procedures you have to sift through to set up a buisness is not Capitalist, if that is what you are implying. The idea has been brought up before that there is no 'pure' political ideology. China is no different.

Please read the third word in your link. I'l make it easier for you. GOVERNMENT. We are talking about private donations. Live this China shit alone.


And what do you think is government, to you, specifically? Yes, the American government might owe money to China, but does that mean it is not Capitalist? After all, is it not the very same institution that has supported a laissez-faire, free-market for centuries?

Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


That's what Communism looks like

http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/Cuba
http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/NorthKorea

That's not what Communism looks like

http://www.heritage.org/index/Country/China

Not fully free Capitalism, but definitely not Communism.

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EvilDarkMagicians
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13456
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby EvilDarkMagicians » Tue May 25, 2010 1:08 am

When mixed with socialism it can be an OK system.

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Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 1:09 am

The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually


I'm confused, what?
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

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Lackadaisical2
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50831
Founded: Mar 03, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue May 25, 2010 1:10 am

Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually

I'm confused, what?

The Adrian Empire is God.
The Republic of Lanos wrote:Proud member of the Vile Right-Wing Noodle Combat Division of the Imperialist Anti-Socialist Economic War Army Ground Force reporting in.

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Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 1:11 am

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually

I'm confused, what?

The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 1:14 am

Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually


I'm confused, what?

You credited the first quote to Self-Esteem, it was me, just corrected it for posterities sake
Last edited by The Adrian Empire on Tue May 25, 2010 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

User avatar
The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 1:15 am

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually

I'm confused, what?

The Adrian Empire is God.

Ah, so that is why I find those golden idols of me lined on front door each day, here I though it was a stalker.

Also sigged! :p This is entirely to be taken out of context
Last edited by The Adrian Empire on Tue May 25, 2010 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

User avatar
Sibirsky
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44938
Founded: Mar 22, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sibirsky » Tue May 25, 2010 1:17 am

The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually


I'm confused, what?

You credited the first quote to Self-Esteem, it was me, just corrected it for posterities sake


Done. My apologies. I hate the quoting system here.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
IBC 7 Finalists
8 Gold, 9 Silver, 2 Bronze medals IV Summer Olympics
2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
Golfinator Classic Champion
Scott Cup I Champions
World Bowl 11 4th Place

User avatar
The Adrian Empire
Senator
 
Posts: 4088
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Adrian Empire » Tue May 25, 2010 1:20 am

Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually


I'm confused, what?

You credited the first quote to Self-Esteem, it was me, just corrected it for posterities sake


Done. My apologies. I hate the quoting system here.

It was worth it to be inadvertently called God and Barack Obama at the same time
From the Desk of His Excellency, Emperor Kyle Cicero Argentis
Region Inc. "Selling Today for a Brighter Tomorrow"
"What is the Price of Prosperity? Eternal Vigilance"
Let's call it Voluntary Government Minarchism
Economic: Left/Right (9.5)
Social: Authoritarian/Libertarian (-2.56)
Sibirsky wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:The Adrian Empire is God.


Oh of course. But not to the leftists.

Faith Hope Charity wrote:I would just like to take this time to say... The Adrian Empire is awesome.
First imagine the 1950's in space, add free market capitalism, aliens, orcs, elves and magic, throw in some art-deco cities, the Roman Empire and finish with the Starship Troopers' Federation
The Imperial Factbook| |Census 2010

User avatar
Self--Esteem
Minister
 
Posts: 3245
Founded: Mar 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Self--Esteem » Tue May 25, 2010 1:27 am

The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:
Ausgebombt wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Also as a point of order, more Americans are employed by small businesses then corporations.


Your sources?


You seem like a devout leftist. So here is god himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GucuzYVBlyY

Ahem, that was me, actually


I'm confused, what?

You credited the first quote to Self-Esteem, it was me, just corrected it for posterities sake


I really feel like a virus. Got to be the 3rd time someone accidently put my name above a quote that wasn't mine.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17187
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotskylvania » Tue May 25, 2010 1:28 am

The Adrian Empire wrote:
Offenheim wrote:So freaking define altruism for me. Instead of telling me what something is not, tell me what it is. Goddamn.

Altruism as you defined it was an unselfish act, to further define it, it is an act taken on by a person with no visible benefit or later profit to the person for the expressed intent of helping another at their own cost.

What we observe is rather not selfless but a concern for their own profit, a poorly balanced proposal would mean they leave with nothing, so to go with the most balanced point is rather selfish, they are only trying to keep as much money as possible, it is just that the majority of people aren't clued into person B's psyche enough to risk anything more then a completely fair deal.

What defines altruism is not reward or potential reward, but rather intent.

If I help out the little old lady next door out of the goodness of my heart without an expectation of reward, it's still an altruistic action even if the little old lady decides to give me some home made cookies for my trouble.
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"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

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Self--Esteem
Minister
 
Posts: 3245
Founded: Mar 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Self--Esteem » Tue May 25, 2010 1:30 am

Trotskylvania wrote:
The Adrian Empire wrote:
Offenheim wrote:So freaking define altruism for me. Instead of telling me what something is not, tell me what it is. Goddamn.

Altruism as you defined it was an unselfish act, to further define it, it is an act taken on by a person with no visible benefit or later profit to the person for the expressed intent of helping another at their own cost.

What we observe is rather not selfless but a concern for their own profit, a poorly balanced proposal would mean they leave with nothing, so to go with the most balanced point is rather selfish, they are only trying to keep as much money as possible, it is just that the majority of people aren't clued into person B's psyche enough to risk anything more then a completely fair deal.

What defines altruism is not reward or potential reward, but rather intent.

If I help out the little old lady next door out of the goodness of my heart without an expectation of reward, it's still an altruistic action even if the little old lady decides to give me some home made cookies for my trouble.


True. But that wasn't the way the experiment worked.

You can't possibly say that anyone gave more out of the kindness of his heart, when the other one could have ruined the deal and thus inadvertedly threatened him to give.

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Offenheim
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1083
Founded: Oct 13, 2009
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Postby Offenheim » Tue May 25, 2010 10:37 am

You know, it just occurred to me that one of the arguments here was the the US population gave the most in charitable contributions. And this is often an argument in free market circles, that charities can accomplish far more in a far better way than government can.

Except... they can't. And it's pretty clear they can't. Things have gotten worse since 1980, for the vast majority of people. At this point 25% of the people own 87% of the wealth. And they keep that wealth, not because they are better than the remaining 75%, but because having wealth provides a firm base to continue making money. Not because they compete better, or more efficiently, or even provide better services. In my opinion, a really good capitalist system would be where one would not be allowed to pass one's wealth onto your children. Thereby always fostering competition among the many, rather than the few.

Our economy just collapsed, because people were making millions off of lies and deceit. The pro-market people will come along and explain to us that this is because of too much regulation. And too some degree, yes, the laws we created were obscure, and drafted by corporate interests, and favored the corporation. But this process began under Reagan and was continued by his successors, of deregulating, of removing safeguards against exploitative practices, and the rich have grown richer, and the poor have grown poorer.

At the same time, charities in the US give more than anybody else. But they have completely failed to mitigate the relatively even society we had. Income inequality has skyrocketed. And don't say, well, this is necessary to foster creativity. For the simple fact of the matter is that America has excelled at extending equality, and freedom, and ability at its most socialized points. Since the rise of social security, a middle class was created, solely by the government. Public education was of a greater quality, because the government dictated that we learn science and math to compete against the Soviets. We put a man on the moon, while we continued to expand welfare coverage. Our inventions of the 1940s-1970s excel most of the inventions since. Our accomplishments definitely excelled then.

And have charities halted the negative changes in society? No. In fact, as people grew rich off the government giving away services, cutting control, they attempted to force the system to keep them rich. The rich rigged the practices so the poor would have to pay more money. And it's caused more trouble for the majority of people than it's been worth. Charities are an utter and abject failure. We get angry at government, and we say it can't do anything right. Yet our army is held aloft as the supreme army on earth. If you can trust the government to run the army, you can trust them to run postal services, and collect taxes, and write laws, and provide welfare, and manage the economy. Because let me tell you, the military is just as incompetent as any other organization, within the government or without.

And I thought of an altruistic act that not only makes me feel good, it contradicts your "money is needed to provide the incentive to cure anything" and that probably also contradicts my point about charities as well:

Salk.
"No one has yet learned to drive a locomotive sitting in his study."
-Leon Trotsky

A Royal Fellowship of Death (WW1 RP)
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Comaak
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Founded: May 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Comaak » Tue May 25, 2010 10:40 am

Instead of asking people what they want and producing it, in capitalism some people called entrepreneurs guess what people want, make it, and hope for the best. If people don't want what they make, they've just wasted time, money, and labor.
Also, there's the issue of allocation. Goods aren't allocated efficiently in a market. For instance, if all food was farmed as efficiently as it was in Holland, there would be enough to feed 67 billion people (source: http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.marxis ... as/ch1.htm). That's more than 10 times the amount of people alive. However, 1 billion people on this earth have no idea where their next meal is coming from, and farmers will actually destroy their crops to keep food prices up instead of feeding people.

A system with the sole aim of making profit cannot be made to be something compassionate. Capitalism is all about promoting "the virtue" of selfishness. The fact is that politicians do not represent the working class and poor, but their own agendas.

Give them a choice between wanting their families to be able to purchase more luxuries and making sure every citizen has the necessities in life, and they would choose the former.

The capitalist system moulds dishonest, opportunistic, politicians who do not, nor will ever, represent us, but themselves and their own comfort in life.
Last edited by Comaak on Tue May 25, 2010 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It's not power that corrupts, but lack of power. " - Tony Cliff
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face -- forever." - Orwell
"Independence? That's middle class blasphemy. We are all dependent on one another, every soul of us on earth." - George Bernard Shaw
"The laws of capitalism, blind and invisible to the majority, act upon the individual without his thinking about it." - Che Guevara

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Sagatagan
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Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Sagatagan » Tue May 25, 2010 10:43 am

I believe in markets, and oppose capitalism. Mutualism forever!
Confederation of participatory-democratic autonomous municipalities. Market socialist economy, some cantons practicing participatory economics. Environmentally sustainable economy. Enormous civil liberties. Nuclear-armed and missile defense equipped, to protect our autonomy.

Left 7.88, Libertarian 8.65

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