Capitalism: Take it or leave it?

[The Adrian Empire]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

You're from Russia(/Generic Bloc Country)? You are like a modern day Ayn Rand!

Well, you are right, the only real cultural success of the Eastern Bloc were either based on things predating the revolution or things that made the party look good, (symphony orchestras, ballet dancers) no creativity, some small doses of innovation here and there but at a snail's pace.

[Lackadaisical2]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

None of those things are bringing true value to the people, just another failure of capitalism really

[Metallic Brethren]

I've noticed that on NSG whenever the topic of capitalism comes up, many (but not all, by any means) condemn capitalism without once offering a concrete reason.

I am inclined to believe in the assertion that true capitalism has never actually existed. Of course, just as with the label "Democracy," several nations have adopted "Capitalist" economies. These economies are usually regulated, often planned, and seldom free. Conversely, most nations labeled as "Communist" are usually just centrally planned economies with a great deal of corruption and discrimination. (Case in point: the opulent and comfortable "Dachas" of the wealthy, politically powerful Communist Party members in the former Soviet Union.) (To clarify: I am not passing judgment on Communism or Socialism with this comment.)

True, in Capitalism we have several positive and negative market externalities. These externalities (as mentioned earlier, the environment, or public goods) are difficult (but NOT impossible) to solve using Capitalism. However, even in its highly limited and corrupted form, Capitalism has shown that it is the most efficient means of allocating resources. In fact, most of the so-called "failures" of Capitalism should properly be noted as failures of government.

I have found no reason to believe that Capitalism is "unethical" or unjustly allocates resources in any way. The mere fact that income disparity exists does not condemn an entire economic system. Furthermore I find no real basis to pass judgment of any intrinsic "fairness" to something so impersonal as an economic system.

In short, I not only take Capitalism, I embrace it wholeheartedly. It is a system in which an individual must find some utility to others, or perish. Such a system strengthens a state, and drives technological and intellectual progress. Stagnation has no place in a truly Capitalist system. Ultimately it is a system in which you take responsibility for your own self-interest. Nobody else can do this for you.

On the other hand, I am not completely in favor of a fully unregulated Capitalist economy. Certain restrictions must be kept, in order to preserve the positive effects Capitalism has, and minimize the negative effects. First and foremost, the rule of law and the rights of citizens come first. No conceivable economic benefit is worth legalized murder, slavery, theft, and other such violations of human rights. Additionally, property rights and the environment must be shielded from powerful economic interests. Finally, competition in the markets must be optimized: horizontal integration has been shown to be very harmful indeed.

[Self--Esteem]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

True.

Although I can't wait for Central Slavia stepping in, telling you that automatic dishwashers are unnecessary luxury. Just as toilet paper is unncessary, because the weekly mail is good enough to wipe off.

I am seriously estranged, as to how people can say that life in the Soviet bloc was better, when they didn't even have enough toilet paper and bananas were considered luxury.

[Lackadaisical2]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

True.

Although I can't wait for Central Slavia stepping in, telling you that automatic dishwashers are unnecessary luxury. Just as toilet paper is unncessary, because the weekly mail is good enough to wipe off.

I am seriously estranged, as to how people can say that life in the Soviet bloc was better, when they didn't even have enough toilet paper and bananas were considered luxury.

What else are you going to use the newspaper for anyway?It was probably all propaganda so, its really quite fitting.

[Self--Esteem]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

True.

Although I can't wait for Central Slavia stepping in, telling you that automatic dishwashers are unnecessary luxury. Just as toilet paper is unncessary, because the weekly mail is good enough to wipe off.

I am seriously estranged, as to how people can say that life in the Soviet bloc was better, when they didn't even have enough toilet paper and bananas were considered luxury.

What else are you going to use the newspaper for anyway?It was probably all propaganda so, its really quite fitting.

Hm. Ok. Right. If the newspaper was on Washington Times level, yes.
Though you have to consider that Central Slavia and his family are pro-communism. So they probably had to wait till everyone had read the last bit.

[Sibirsky]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

You're from Russia(/Generic Bloc Country)? You are like a modern day Ayn Rand!

Well, you are right, the only real cultural success of the Eastern Bloc were either based on things predating the revolution or things that made the party look good, (symphony orchestras, ballet dancers) no creativity, some small doses of innovation here and there but at a snail's pace.

Wow, thank you. That's quite a compliment.

[The Adrian Empire]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

True.

Although I can't wait for Central Slavia stepping in, telling you that automatic dishwashers are unnecessary luxury. Just as toilet paper is unncessary, because the weekly mail is good enough to wipe off.

I am seriously estranged, as to how people can say that life in the Soviet bloc was better, when they didn't even have enough toilet paper and bananas were considered luxury.

In much the same way that American Conservatives fiercely defend what was socialist 60 years ago, with authoritarian measures today it is entirely a movement consisting of people with imperfect hindsight, they look back to the past with rose tinted glasses, while seeing the bleak future of change ahead of them as a dangerous path to their nation. They aren't correct, but it doesn't stop them

[Sibirsky]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

None of those things are bringing true value to the people, just another failure of capitalism really

I love you too.
Let me try another one. My parents were on a waiting list to get telephone service at their apartment for 7 years. SEVEN YEARS. Why? There was no faster competitor to go to. Now imagine a provider in the US taking that long. Imagine going to a Verizon store and they say there a 7 year wait for service. How long would they stay in business? What would stop people from going to AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint or whoever else? Competition breeds creativity as well.

[Rhannu]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions; USA

This is because, in a capitalist society, the huge inequalities in income and wealth mean that the poor get nothing and then the rich get everything. The rich then start running out of ways to use up all their excess cash and have to actually give it away. In a socialist/communist system, no one would need to give money away. Why? Everyone has the same amount, so there is no one to give it to.

[Lackadaisical2]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions; USA

This is because, in a capitalist society, the huge inequalities in income and wealth mean that the poor get nothing and then the rich get everything. The rich then start running out of ways to use up all their excess cash and have to actually give it away. In a socialist/communist system, no one would need to give money away. Why? Everyone has the same amount, so there is no one to give it to.

I would more attribute it to our unusual wealth and religiosity. But to each their own completely unsubstantiated opinion. You know, except all the studies showing how more religious people donate more, and rich people can still buy just about anything they want here, its rare to find one who doesn't still want something. Indeed, the poorest states have the most people donating,a nd the highest %s.

[Sibirsky]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

True.

Although I can't wait for Central Slavia stepping in, telling you that automatic dishwashers are unnecessary luxury. Just as toilet paper is unncessary, because the weekly mail is good enough to wipe off.

I am seriously estranged, as to how people can say that life in the Soviet bloc was better, when they didn't even have enough toilet paper and bananas were considered luxury.

I suspect Central Slavia is 12 or so. Anybody know? In other words, has no real understanding of what it was like during the real socialist times. I remember waiting in line for eggs with my mom for two hours, only to find out that the store ran out of eggs right before our turn. There was plenty of eggs in the Soviet Union. They were not allocated properly however. The central planners couldn't figure it out.

[Ausgebombt]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

[Self--Esteem]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

None of those things are bringing true value to the people, just another failure of capitalism really

I love you too.
Let me try another one. My parents were on a waiting list to get telephone service at their apartment for 7 years. SEVEN YEARS. Why? There was no faster competitor to go to. Now imagine a provider in the US taking that long. Imagine going to a Verizon store and they say there a 7 year wait for service. How long would they stay in business? What would stop people from going to AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint or whoever else? Competition breeds creativity as well.

Which reminds me of an old Soviet joke.

A man in Soviet Russia saved all the money for a car. He visits his local garage, puts the money on the counter and puts down an order. The salesman replies that he can come back in exactly 10 years. Thereafter, the man asks plainly "In the morning or afternoon"? The salesman "10 years from now. What difference does it make?" The man "Well. The plumber is coming in the morning".

[Lackadaisical2]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%

E: and to remind you, fixing people's posts without adding any commentary is now verboten.

[Sibirsky]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions; USA

This is because, in a capitalist society, the huge inequalities in income and wealth mean that the poor get nothing and then the rich get everything. The rich then start running out of ways to use up all their excess cash and have to actually give it away. In a socialist/communist system, no one would need to give money away. Why? Everyone has the same amount, so there is no one to give it to.

The poor have plenty compared to the poor of other countries. They have higher incomes. A car (it's old, and it's shitty, but it runs, and it's a car) a television set (it's no 50 inch flat screen TV, hell it may even be black and white, but they have it). These items are luxuries in the rest of the world. The world's poor are not worried about cars and televisions, they are worried about their next meal. Clothes.

[Self--Esteem]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions; USA

This is because, in a capitalist society, the huge inequalities in income and wealth mean that the poor get nothing and then the rich get everything. The rich then start running out of ways to use up all their excess cash and have to actually give it away. In a socialist/communist system, no one would need to give money away. Why? Everyone has the same amount, so there is no one to give it to.

Your description is nonsensical. If the poor got nothing and the plain rich got everything, how come there are still enough "working class" and "middle class" people around?

[The Adrian Empire]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

Erh, ahem, no

You are thinking of government debt (which is a result of socialism and foreign interventionism, so is a defeatist argument), we are speaking of purely personal charity. Last time I checked, the typical American Family doesn't ring up Beijing for a loan.

[Self--Esteem]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%

E: and to remind you, fixing people's posts without adding any commentary is now verboten.

Prohibited!

God damnit. I hate this mixture of German and American, many Americans are into.

[Sibirsky]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

I'm sorry? Charitable contributions come from personal incomes. Not from China.

[Sibirsky]

There is no such thing as pure Capitalism, nor pure Communism. Our current system is a mesh of both, as are all others.

But, in principle, I do not believe in Capitalism. It's growth rate is too gaudy--it tears up everything in it's path. It consumes resources at a manic pace. It does nothing to ensure a fulfilling social, creative, and intellectual life.

And, of course, it's on it's way out.

It breeds creativity. It's not on the way out. Freedom will prevail. Capitalism is freedom.

A one sentence surmise of my 1000 word post. This most emphatically this^

Example. When I left the Soviet Union in 1991 I have never heard of an automatic dishwasher. It was a luxurious item a very few elites had. While on the other side of the world in the United States it was invented in 1886 and became available in the consumer market in the 1950s. By the 1970s they were commonplace. That is creativity. Examples like that are abundant. Just like consumer products are abundant under capitalism.

None of those things are bringing true value to the people, just another failure of capitalism really

I love you too.
Let me try another one. My parents were on a waiting list to get telephone service at their apartment for 7 years. SEVEN YEARS. Why? There was no faster competitor to go to. Now imagine a provider in the US taking that long. Imagine going to a Verizon store and they say there a 7 year wait for service. How long would they stay in business? What would stop people from going to AT&T, T-Mobile, Sprint or whoever else? Competition breeds creativity as well.

Which reminds me of an old Soviet joke.

A man in Soviet Russia saved all the money for a car. He visits his local garage, puts the money on the counter and puts down an order. The salesman replies that he can come back in exactly 10 years. Thereafter, the man asks plainly "In the morning or afternoon"? The salesman "10 years from now. What difference does it make?" The man "Well. The plumber is coming in the morning".

[Lackadaisical2]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%

E: and to remind you, fixing people's posts without adding any commentary is now verboten.

Prohibited!

God damnit. I hate this mixture of German and American, many Americans are into.

We're slowly raping German, just for kicks, thats what English does.

[Ausgebombt]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

According to that China owns about 23.4% of our debt. And is the foremost owner of our debt at about 877.5 billion.

That is not 'very little', hell, just holding 10% of our debt is very bad. VERY BAD. Having just about 1/4 of our debt is even worse.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion, Capitalism is fine and all, but are you aware that we are currently sucking the metaphorical funstick of a Communist country?

[The Adrian Empire]

Most capitalist large country; USA
Most generous country in terms of charitable contributions which are being borrowed from China; USA

again with complete BS claims, for one, we're talking private donations too, further, very little of US debt is held by china, under 10%

E: and to remind you, fixing people's posts without adding any commentary is now verboten.

Prohibited!

God damnit. I hate this mixture of German and American, many Americans are into.

We're slowly raping German, just for kicks, thats what English does.

Next is French mais oui? Then we move on to the Chinese..

[Self--Esteem]

I have one more.

A man walks along the dark streets of Moscow. An officer sees him and shouts "Stop!". The man runs and is shot by the officer.

Shortly thereafter, another officer drops by, sees the dead man and asks his comrade why he did it.

The 1st officer: "Curfew"
2nd officer: "But it's not curfew yet."
1st officer: "I am aware of that. But I knew this man and know where he lived. There is no way he could have made it".