America's Hopeless Student Debt Crisis

[Ifreann]

More than just actual psychopaths, but lots of people who have just adopted a terrible mindset as well.

What is so terrible about the mindset that someone who voluntarily assumes a debt should pay for that debt?

The prioritising of that principle over the welfare of the whole nation. The lives of hundreds of millions of people are made worse by America's student debt problem.

[The Black Forrest]

Suurre. It’s more they are getting something and you are not.

They are getting it at my expense.

Are they now. You do understand the money the government “stole” from you could have been allocated elsewhere.

Still…..you should own it. You are mad somebody is getting something and you are not.

[The 189]

I just have a problem with you sitting there and denying any responsibility for your own choices.

I thankfully don't have a lot of debt, and it's manageable for me even if nothing was to be done, so I fail to see how I'm denying responsibility for anything.

I'm saying is that this crises that others seem to be stuck in isn't as simple as "don't go to college, problem solved." "Or well you chose to get educated, so you deserve it." An overly simplistic "solution" that those who are gleeful in the fact that people are trapped in debt like to cite.

If you could get by without an insurmountable amount of debt, and I could too, what's stopping other people?

Not all student loans are bad. People just have a responsibility to manage their financial commitments, whether it's student loans, mortgages, car loans, credit card spending, or whatever. All of those things are voluntary commitments.

Only medical debt is not voluntary, and healthcare reform should be prioritized more highly because of that.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

what's stopping other people?

A more expensive program and believing over-hyped lies about their income and job prospects. I borrowed from the government, but others borrow from private entities and there's things like hidden fees and other things that often happen when people do that.

There's lots of scenarios where I could have gotten into deep shit, so I do believe in bailing out these indebted students, especially when they're in a situation where it takes decades to pay it off. That's just insane.

Now, do you oppose student loan forgiveness? You claimed you didn't earlier, but it reads like you do.

[Saiwania]

There is a lot to complain about so far as worthless vs valuable degrees go, but I've found it, this is updated for up until 2023 if not beyond.

Here is a list of the top 5 college majors that are supposedly worth it, these aren't specific degrees but rather broad categories people can get into. Ranked from what pays best to what pays worse so far as income potential. All of those majors however, have relative job security and demand which will never go away anyime soon if ever.

The best types of majors are:

1. Computer Science
2. Health
3. Business
4. Human Resources
5. Engineering

Yes, these things might not be what you're interested in learning, but it is what the outside world allegedly wants. With any of these, you can more or less never have to suffer unemployment ever again, if you do everything right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8NSkuBkb0
-Explainations for why. Go into those sorts of careers and chances are, you can easily pay off any student debts if you accrued any to go into these fields.

[Des-Bal]

A college degree isn't neccessary to be productive.

In any event, if a college grad is productive, they can pay their own damn debts.

College degrees aren't necessary to be productive but they're a great indicator. When you break down the population by education level most groups take more out of the system than they put in, folks with at least some college are an exception our goal should be to incentivize people to get degrees because that's how we get the most out of them. It's not about who can afford what it's about whether or not it's a worthwhile investment and the answer is yes.

[Informed Consent]

A college degree isn't neccessary to be productive.

In any event, if a college grad is productive, they can pay their own damn debts.

College degrees aren't necessary to be productive but they're a great indicator. When you break down the population by education level most groups take more out of the system than they put in, folks with at least some college are an exception our goal should be to incentivize people to get degrees because that's how we get the most out of them. It's not about who can afford what it's about whether or not it's a worthwhile investment and the answer is yes.

In other words, the thing does not have to possess merit to have merit. Okay, sure.

[Des-Bal]

In other words, the thing does not have to possess merit to have merit. Okay, sure.

That's an absurd conclusion from the premise "investments that pay off are good."

[Informed Consent]

In other words, the thing does not have to possess merit to have merit. Okay, sure.

That's an absurd conclusion from the premise "investments that pay off are good."

Just throw money into it, and it will pay for itself is an absurd premise.
Perhaps you meant something more objective, or measured, but I did not see it in that post.

[Diopolis]

I thought we were discussing hypothetical "free college" programs?
Those would, almost without a doubt, be effected by free universal community college with strong subsidies for transfers to a four year institution. And free universal community college is basically something that would happen by mandating states to implement it, because that's how community colleges are organized... which goes back to state/local tax burdens.
Now, if congress passes some bill which declares a four year degree a fundamental right that must by paid for by federal spending, and allots 20% of defense spending or whatever, that's a different story, but the only proposal I've seen with support outside the progressive wing of the democrat party is "free community college". And "I don't want my taxes to go up" is a reasonable objection to free community college because community college is already heavily subsidized by state and local taxes, and making it "free" would be more so. Even if we assume the federal government allots subsidies to replace tuition, it's now been declared a right that has to be fully funded no matter the tax burden and will follow a similar trajectory to costs in public k-12 education.

Not a right to be fully funded. A right to have zero tuition. Public K-12 is far from fully funded.

Public K-12 is substantially overfunded, correct*. This is in part because of its governing structure(districts capable of setting their own tax rates)... which community colleges share. The difference is that community colleges charge tuition, thus helping to defray the cost on the taxpayer. And that tuition is by and large not a huge barrier to access, because it's relatively low.
*Canada is probably the closest analogue to the USA internationally- they spend half as much per student K-12 while delivering better results and paying teachers better. It seems fairly clear that tuition free public education costs consistently rise to exceed the budget allotted in the US political system- Catholic schools also spend dramatically less than US public schools because they're theoretically funded by tuition, creating an incentive to control costs.

[Diopolis]

What is so terrible about the mindset that someone who voluntarily assumes a debt should pay for that debt?

Considering the fact that the economy has resulted in college degrees in many cases effectively becoming the new high school diploma, you certainly stretch the term "voluntarily." They wouldn't have went in to debt if they thought they had a choice in the matter.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20 ... e-required

You grew up in an era where a HS diploma got you most jobs. We don't have that luxury. Either way, getting an education should not require crippling debt, nor predatory lenders be allowed to take advantage of people trying to move up.

Unfortunately, we also live in an era of stagnant wages alongside a rising cost of living (been the case for decades), so it is not surprising that people are left in the cold, and that is not a good thing.

An associates degree from a community college with transfer to a four year commuter school for the last two years is affordable for a drastically limited amount of debt. People who choose "the traditional college experience" over cost minimization do not arouse much sympathy from me when they have to pay for their cost overruns.

[Umeria]

Not a right to be fully funded. A right to have zero tuition. Public K-12 is far from fully funded.

Public K-12 is substantially overfunded, correct*. This is in part because of its governing structure(districts capable of setting their own tax rates)... which community colleges share. The difference is that community colleges charge tuition, thus helping to defray the cost on the taxpayer. And that tuition is by and large not a huge barrier to access, because it's relatively low.
*Canada is probably the closest analogue to the USA internationally- they spend half as much per student K-12 while delivering better results and paying teachers better. It seems fairly clear that tuition free public education costs consistently rise to exceed the budget allotted in the US political system- Catholic schools also spend dramatically less than US public schools because they're theoretically funded by tuition, creating an incentive to control costs.

Canada doesn't have tuition either, except for international students. And colleges in the US, which do charge tuition, are prohibitively expensive. So whatever makes a school high quality and affordable, it's not whether there's tuition. I'd be happy to change the tax methods and stuff if that's the issue. Also I don't know where you're getting that they spend half as much as the US per student - according to this they spend 84% of what the US spends.

An associates degree from a community college with transfer to a four year commuter school for the last two years is affordable for a drastically limited amount of debt. People who choose "the traditional college experience" over cost minimization do not arouse much sympathy from me when they have to pay for their cost overruns.

This isn't always the case - the community college system doesn't have much in the way of engineering programs, for example. I was concurrently enrolled at the local community college during high school and it's only saving me about one semester's worth of college classes. Still significant in terms of savings, but far from what's needed.

[Avonley]

College is really experiences but I also think that people don't consider other options. Such as going to a community college, a vocational or trade school and bootcamp. There are several options other than college to get you ahead in life. You just have to decide what is best for.

[Saiwania]

College is really experiences but I also think that people don't consider other options. Such as going to a community college, a vocational or trade school and bootcamp. There are several options other than college to get you ahead in life. You just have to decide what is best for.

Community College is college, or rather the first rung on the higher education ladder, where it is open to whoever wants to pay tuition and can test out of or pass any remedial courses if any are needed from someone scoring low on ACT or SAT. It is also where people who've failed high school can get a GED and redeem themselves on that front.

Even though such schools sell primarily 2 year degree or certificate programs, there is now nothing stopping some such institutions from offering 4 year degree programs. A community college is only going to be marginally less expensive than a traditional college/university if you're not in-state.

Yes there are other options, but don't be fooled into thinking that any of them are going to not saddle someone with debts if they miscalculate their return on investment in completing any such curriculum. As far as coding bootcamps go, you could fall into the trap of tutorial hell. With programming, you ultimately don't get any better until after you actually write working code and have done so long enough as to have gained competency- if you have any talent for it.

[Alcala-Cordel]

If college tuitions are too expensive, the solution isn't for people to go anyways because that just encourages the schools to raise tuitions more. The real solution is for enough people to not go to force those schools to want to lower price of admission so they get some and not no money for that year.

Failing that, enough people just got to complain about the private sector discriminating against people without degrees and actually vote in a government which will go after these businesses. If they can't demonstrate that a degree is truly required for entry level, they could get in trouble. This won't work perhaps however, if the businesses do more political donations and the politicians will want to do their bidding more. But the business owners and corporations won't have numbers on their side so far as there being a big enough pool of people who can complain or do civil unrest.

Isn't part of the entire reason people pay tax to fund K-12 to supposedly prepare a pool of people who will be ready to work and live in society? The K-12 is what has failed if we absolutely still need college anyways in this economy, despite wasting 12+ years on them.

College is supposed to be for something very skilled or elite like becoming upper executive in business or doing Law, Medicine, or Engineering and so on.

The whole "crisis" in a nutshell: The government starts subsidizing the loans, people start borrowing money, the colleges seeing free money up their tuition and adults STILL keep borrowing money and expecting the rest of society to pay for it.

The crisis occurs because most colleges and educational institutions are run for profit and charge obscene amounts of money for things, but community college only goes so far and degrees are necessary for a variety of jobs.

For the sake of consistency you should military industrial complex significantly more than utilities and opportunities. Military contractors currently take incomprehensible sums of money from the government to do significantly less helpful things.

[Informed Consent]

The crisis occurs because most colleges and educational institutions are run for profit and charge obscene amounts of money for things, but community college only goes so far and degrees are necessary for a variety of jobs.

For the sake of consistency you should military industrial complex significantly more than utilities and opportunities. Military contractors currently take incomprehensible sums of money from the government to do significantly less helpful things.

Now there is a tragic progressive irony.
The US established its MIC to help offset the cost of its New Deal state, as well as the other NATO nanny states.
Oh, well. People have had crazier ideas.

The profit motive does not just feed bellies and pockets.
It establishes parameters for affordability and quality control that paradigms not subject to a zero sum standard, or lack complete consumer feedback loops, do not do well.
That is why the CCP needs Tik Tok data to help inform its development of a relevant AI.

Also, why state subsidy always, without fail, eventually outpaces private production.
One operates under a tighter fiscal and legal leash that forces it to account for subsidized income in market pricing.
Then one day, a country like the US gets so upside down that it could could shovel the whole North American continent into the hole, and the Atlantic and Pacific oceans would meet at a swirling whirlpool demanding more.

Sure, central plan the whole thing to save you the disillusionment.
After a while, like the old USSR, you have shelves full of things no one wants, and almost empty of what they need.
There is a reason the CCP has baby stepped away from that, here and there, over the course of its post Mao evolution.
Not they will ever stop killing people.
Political expediency is king in all socialist paradigms.

[Umeria]

The crisis occurs because most colleges and educational institutions are run for profit and charge obscene amounts of money for things, but community college only goes so far and degrees are necessary for a variety of jobs.

For the sake of consistency you should military industrial complex significantly more than utilities and opportunities. Military contractors currently take incomprehensible sums of money from the government to do significantly less helpful things.

Now there is a tragic progressive irony.
The US established its MIC to help offset the cost of its New Deal state, as well as the other NATO nanny states.
Oh, well. People have had crazier ideas.

No the MIC was established to fight in WWII (or the USSR depending on when you think it started). The New Deal state didn't need to be offset, it's cool and awesome on its own.

The profit motive does not just feed bellies and pockets.
It establishes parameters for affordability and quality control that paradigms not subject to a zero sum standard, or lack complete consumer feedback loops, do not do well.
That is why the CCP needs Tik Tok data to help inform its development of a relevant AI.

Apparently not for insulin, or railroad service, or education...

[Alcala-Cordel]

The crisis occurs because most colleges and educational institutions are run for profit and charge obscene amounts of money for things, but community college only goes so far and degrees are necessary for a variety of jobs.

For the sake of consistency you should military industrial complex significantly more than utilities and opportunities. Military contractors currently take incomprehensible sums of money from the government to do significantly less helpful things.

Now there is a tragic progressive irony.
The US established its MIC to help offset the cost of its New Deal state, as well as the other NATO nanny states.
Oh, well. People have had crazier ideas.

The MIC was largely a product of WW2 and exploded in size during the Cold War.

The profit motive does not just feed bellies and pockets.

The profit motive takes away from the bellies and pockets of all but the wealthy.

It establishes parameters for affordability and quality control that paradigms not subject to a zero sum standard, or lack complete consumer feedback loops, do not do well.
That is why the CCP needs Tik Tok data to help inform its development of a relevant AI.

Right, because giant American companies and government institutions would ever do anything like that...

Also, why state subsidy always, without fail, eventually outpaces private production.
One operates under a tighter fiscal and legal leash that forces it to account for subsidized income in market pricing.
Then one day, a country like the US gets so upside down that it could could shovel the whole North American continent into the hole, and the Atlantic and Pacific oceans would meet at a swirling whirlpool demanding more.

Sure, central plan the whole thing to save you the disillusionment.
After a while, like the old USSR, you have shelves full of things no one wants, and almost empty of what they need.
There is a reason the CCP has baby stepped away from that, here and there, over the course of its post Mao evolution.
Not they will ever stop killing people.
Political expediency is king in all socialist paradigms.

Because the only two options are capitalism or heavy central planning by an elite group. It's not like other socialist groups have proposed/established other ideas, or that colleges in countries that regulate them more don't have student debt crises...

Your oversimplification of economic systems and deliberate misrepresentation of socialism aside, it's worth noting that the profit motive encourages corner-cutting. Here in my home state of California the power company charges ridiculous prices and starts wildfires with dilapidated infrastructure it neglected to improve because they'd rather funnel the money to high-level administrators. The University of California is also currently facing the largest academic strike in US history because student workers aren't being paid enough to survive in many places.

[The Gas Kussolova]

A lot has to be done, but probably won't be done. Biden tried to help by cancelling some debt, but his student debt forgiveness program been blocked by the lower courts and will most certainly be killed by SCOTUS in the coming months.