by Holy Clussia » Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:09 pm
by Holy Clussia » Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:28 pm
Eahland wrote:Free post-secondary education.
by Saiwania » Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:51 pm
by Shermania » Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:48 am
Saiwania wrote:We should vet where the tuition money is really going after it is paid to colleges/universities and crack down on whether these schools are in effect a rip off or overpromising people in being an expensive ticket into the middle or upper income classes if they graduate.
Some licensed professions like Doctor/Lawyer/Accountant are doing just fine. But other degrees that teach a lot of Liberal ideology, I'm not so sure on as far as if it is practical and hence, deserves continued funding.
by Fractalnavel » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:17 am
by Cannot think of a name » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:27 am
Fractalnavel wrote:Some state post-secondary institutions are indeed affordable to residents. And there are grant programs and scholarship programs. As a society, the US states committed to providing education through secondary institutions. And that's because they also required it. So society also foots the bill. But post-secondary education is a completely different story. I don't have much sympathy for folks who refused to live within their means and then want push those costs off on society. But this is the same mentality that got bailed out of irresponsible home buying, and private business problems, so this is consistent.
by Laasmistan » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:33 am
Eahland wrote:Free post-secondary education.
by Fractalnavel » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:35 am
Cannot think of a name wrote:Fractalnavel wrote:Some state post-secondary institutions are indeed affordable to residents. And there are grant programs and scholarship programs. As a society, the US states committed to providing education through secondary institutions. And that's because they also required it. So society also foots the bill. But post-secondary education is a completely different story. I don't have much sympathy for folks who refused to live within their means and then want push those costs off on society. But this is the same mentality that got bailed out of irresponsible home buying, and private business problems, so this is consistent.
"refused to live within their means."
So...college only for the rich. Cool. Gotta keep dem' poors in their place.
by Laasmistan » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:39 am
Big Jim P wrote:What crisis? People willingly went into debt (sometimes funding useless degrees). It is not the taxpayers duty to bail them out.
by Fractalnavel » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:55 am
by Laasmistan » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:58 am
Fractalnavel wrote:Laasmistan wrote:
Define "useless degree".
Well, that's part of the problem, isn't it. Advanced education is not a trade school. But so many people treat it that way. Other than a few professions, that wasn't the case - sometime back in the mid-20th century. Now? So it's more of an expectations thing, on all sides, being out of sync with various realities.
If someone wants to do ivy league and study philosophy, that's great. Not a taxpayer responsibility though. I don't think taxpayers should necessarily be funding trade schools either, however they are defined, but I realize that's a minority position.
A lot of the problem is potential employers inflating requirements. What we end up with is just what we see now, and the whole system has been devalued. And yes, the university system is part of the problem. Not all, but many.
Maybe now college is just extended high school, and should be handled similarly. But community colleges have been a thing for that already. No one wants those - they want the 'name' institutions, and then complain that they aren't getting a return on their investment.
It's understandable that this gets framed the way it does. Maybe jump ahead a generation or two, and visualize how this works out...
by Cannot think of a name » Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:06 am
Fractalnavel wrote:Cannot think of a name wrote:"refused to live within their means."
So...college only for the rich. Cool. Gotta keep dem' poors in their place.
Not at all. Actually, horrifying. But post-secondary is/was (should be? different discussion) more of a meritocracy. And to support that there are grant programs based on financial need. That's how I got through it, among other things. Premier private schools? Always the realm of the wealthy. There are plenty of very good schools in the state systems.
The social contract can be changed. At that point 'forgiving' reasonable debt could be on the table. But only to the extent it would be equivalent to the state offerings. No one owes anyone private school tuition.
Should the social contract be changed? Pros & cons there.
by Fractalnavel » Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:30 am
Cannot think of a name wrote:Fractalnavel wrote:
Not at all. Actually, horrifying. But post-secondary is/was (should be? different discussion) more of a meritocracy. And to support that there are grant programs based on financial need. That's how I got through it, among other things. Premier private schools? Always the realm of the wealthy. There are plenty of very good schools in the state systems.
The social contract can be changed. At that point 'forgiving' reasonable debt could be on the table. But only to the extent it would be equivalent to the state offerings. No one owes anyone private school tuition.
Should the social contract be changed? Pros & cons there.
Ah, so you think that it's just an issue of private colleges because you got through on grants so obviously it wasn't public schools.
Alright, everything's calibrated now.
by Emotional Support Crocodile » Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:35 am
by Kerwa » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:10 am
Cannot think of a name wrote:Fractalnavel wrote:Some state post-secondary institutions are indeed affordable to residents. And there are grant programs and scholarship programs. As a society, the US states committed to providing education through secondary institutions. And that's because they also required it. So society also foots the bill. But post-secondary education is a completely different story. I don't have much sympathy for folks who refused to live within their means and then want push those costs off on society. But this is the same mentality that got bailed out of irresponsible home buying, and private business problems, so this is consistent.
"refused to live within their means."
So...college only for the rich. Cool. Gotta keep dem' poors in their place.
by Cuba 2022 RP » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:17 am
Spanish leader realises France wasn't at war for the past two months as he had previously thought | The United Socialist Provinces of Central America proclaimed after twelve-day war between the Central American Unification Community and El Salvador, Panama, and Costa Rica | American blockade begins to wane as they also start collapsing | Famine in Cuba as China collapses, America refuses to lift embargo | Israel changes vote in favour of Cuba, America officially condemned by every single country for blockade | Cuban protests real now, not just American colour revolution, says Putin
by Nilokeras » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:26 am
by Cannot think of a name » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:40 am
Fractalnavel wrote:Cannot think of a name wrote:Ah, so you think that it's just an issue of private colleges because you got through on grants so obviously it wasn't public schools.
Alright, everything's calibrated now.
Also put into your calibration that it was 40 years ago. And yes, tuition has gone way up. The world has changed. But doesn't it always? And those grants: tiny. State school, resident tuition. Lived at home. Took a bus. Or a junker car. Or carpooled.
People are going into debt with state schools ('public' can mean the opposite in certain systems)? Have the financial aid systems and subsidies failed, then? Should we be delivering those after the fact?
People went to university because of the money they expected to make afterwards? Well... that does seem irresponsible. I almost didn't go at all. Education was its own reward, for all involved.
So now everyone expects to be able to given more schooling. That wasn't always the case. I do remember grade inflation issues even 30 years ago. Not only did people start to think they were entitled to more education, they also felt entitled to not only passing grades, but exemplary ones. All that did was erode the education.
All employers requiring college: big problem. Of course most jobs won't pay off, they never would. They just aren't that valuable and don't actually need a college degree, even severely devalued ones. Which leads to all the fraudulent programs.
On the other hand, if we want to go the guaranteed basic income route, have at it.
by Cannot think of a name » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:43 am
Kerwa wrote:
And stop calling working class people “poors”. I know you think you are scoring a point over your peer group but it’s actually just insulting to people who grew up in poverty.
by Ifreann » Sat Nov 12, 2022 7:46 am
Big Jim P wrote:What crisis? People willingly went into debt (sometimes funding useless degrees). It is not the taxpayers duty to bail them out.
by The Second Order of Life » Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:00 am
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by Huaren Gongsi state » Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:03 am
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