NationStates

Personally, I like Capitalism, it lets people make money and take care of themselves. Its better than any of the other systems we've come up with so far but it does have its problems. For example, eventually all the money accumulates in a few hands, or how people with less money are most likely to stay that way. There have been different schools of thought on how to fix that issue, for example taxing the rich proportionally to their wealth, government investment in small businesses and things like Universal Basic Income. But those things are always iffy because of tricky things like inflation.

The other day I was reading up on someone's factbook and the idea of unions and collective bargaining being enshrined in their national bill of rights seemed like a genius move in dealing with corporations trying to union bust and break up people from negotiating as a group. Right now the world seems to be going through a financial meltdown, stock market is crashing, housing market is still unaffordable since the Boomer generation, and the minimum wage not only has not kept up with inflation but factually has less buying power than any other time in modern history.

While this is all happening, corporations are reaping in record profits. Maybe if there was a system codefied in law where a certain amount of generated gross profits go directly back to the workers, or that the least earning member in a company is earned proportional to the most earning member, so a high earning CEO HAS to increase pay for everyone else if he or she wants more money, either through bonuses, salary or any other form of income received.

To me I think that would be a way to improve the capitalist system, if the top of the pyramid wants to earn more money, they can only earn as much as a certain ratio compared to the people at the bottom of a company, and any money they receive, everyone else receives a proportional amount. Its frustrating seeing how even though the minimum wage for workers has stagnated to being slightly better than nothing, CEO wages have been running wild, where they've increases thousands of percent over the years in how much a company is willing to pay. That also shows that its better to tax corporations than individuals because people might not be as liquid, people might have most of their assets in property or the stock market. A corporation though, a certain amount of its earnings has to stay liquid.

Another solution would be something like how some nordic countries invest their national trading surplus into some sort of Investment, where the returns end up being paid out to everyone.

I believe we're at a turning point in the Capitalist system, where never before has so much been horded by the few. We are coming up with ways where the money that is considered excessive is being taxed and returned into working people and being made to circulate into the economy again. I'm tired of people bashing Capitalism, its got its problems but being poor under capitalism is infinity better than being poor under any other economic model. *cough* communism *cough*

So instead of going backwards and adopting a previous inefficient system, how about we talk about what a post-end stage capitalistic economic system might look like? One thats egalitarian, that uses the excess of the profits generated by the rich to support those at the bottom AND to come up with a system where people are being paid a REAL Living Wage instead of the least amount of money they can legally pay you. Thats what I want, pay me more proportionally for the amount of money Im making you! It seems like nowadays if you work hard and put in the hours, some day your boss can finally buy that dream car he or she always wanted. We've been conditioned by society to work hard to make others rich, instead of working hard to make ourselves rich, and I think the next step for us as a society is to figure out how to get corporations to pay their workers in relation to their gross profits. That way, when the company you work for is doing well, you also get more.

Simple. Make it a free market, abolish Patents and market regulation (Except for the bare minimum) and let it do it's thing.

Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Look, I identify as anti-capitalist and communist because I am inherently sceptical of any change to capitalism being successful in the long-term. I think we've had a period where capitalism was more acceptable than it is today (the mid-20th century being one example), but I am jaded enough to think that capitalism has a way of righting itself to be the most profit-driven, amoral system that it can be. However, while I'm intensely sceptical, I wait on baited breath for reforms to what we have because even immediate relief that promises no long-term change is better than nothing.

That said, some of the ideas you've proposed... Good luck trying to get anything like that implemented. You are definitely not a communist, and I would not even call you a socialist, but these kinds of reforms are exactly the type of thing that makes the right-wing's Red Detectors go a-whirring. Moreover, as I understand that power rarely works against its own self-interest, and knowing that even those in power who are not themselves in the same capitalist class you want to add penalties to have those same capitalists paying into their pockets to keep their taxes low and the prices high, good luck trying to get any of this passed into any legislature and not immediately laughed out.

As I say, sceptical of any good changes being made in the long term, but I will wait with bated breath on the fringes of this conversation in case.

The Frontier NCR wrote:Simple. Make it a free market, abolish Patents and market regulation (Except for the bare minimum) and let it do it's thing.

Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Victorian-era factory owner, is that you?

More regulations, and less lobbying. More climate controls, and less pussying out of them. Less ways to commit tax fraud, and more ways to support unions.

Republic Of Ludwigsburg wrote:More regulations, and less lobbying. More climate controls, and less pussying out of them. Less ways to commit tax fraud, and more ways to support unions.

I second this.

The Frontier NCR wrote:Simple. Make it a free market, abolish Patents and market regulation (Except for the bare minimum) and let it do it's thing.

Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Clearly you haven't worked a day in your life. Everyone wants to make people work for 22 hours per day with no holidays, but sweety there's a word that we call that, and it is "cruel".

I don't believe we should abolish it altogether. The evidence in support of Capitalism and free markets showing their efficiency is very real and we shouldn't ignore those results for the sake of furthering our movement.

Instead, I'd rather create a model where all civilians, regardless of background, consensually agree to upheld a society of democratic principles and as a result of those principles, create a world where all can give some, and take some.

Social Nets, lower overall taxes, Public and Private partnerships for the betterment of its civilians, Public works projects such as High Speed Rail, Healthcare and agricultural subsidies, a net preventing companies from being too big while another net that prevents business from being bankrupt, more specific worker protections and more can go a long way.

The Frontier NCR wrote:Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Yes, back to the days when the money supply was held hostage by the supply of gold, and the economy must suffer if it expanded faster than the gold supply.

Republic Of Ludwigsburg wrote:

The Frontier NCR wrote:Simple. Make it a free market, abolish Patents and market regulation (Except for the bare minimum) and let it do it's thing.

Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Clearly you haven't worked a day in your life. Everyone wants to make people work for 22 hours per day with no holidays, but sweety there's a word that we call that, and it is "cruel".

There are a lot of examples of the over-exploitation of workers. While I am not a socialist in terms of economic ideology, but I think achieving a balance between what we can regulate in the market and without limiting too much the market is something I wish becomes achievable

Picairn wrote:

The Frontier NCR wrote:Also returning to the gold standard would be great.

Yes, back to the days when the money supply was held hostage by the supply of gold, and the economy must suffer if it expanded faster than the gold supply.

I'll actually take the NCR's side on this one. Money printing can cause inflation and is an unsustainable framework that Keynesian economics relies upon. The Gold Standard limits those price increases and monetary supply increases in favor of a more stable system that doesn't take unnecessary risks at the expense at the people.

Capitalism is diseased, rotten to the core. There's no saving it. We need to pull it out by the roots, wipe the slate clean, burn it down!

Wallenburg wrote:Capitalism is diseased, rotten to the core. There's no saving it. We need to pull it out by the roots, wipe the slate clean, burn it down!

That certainly is closest to my current view. Every suggestion I've seen to improve capitalism has come down to either "let's give people a taste of socialism/communism so they'll stop complaining" or "let's give free markets even more freedom to ruin people's lives".

Neither of these are acceptable options to me. If you concede that the former would work, why stop at a taste? And if you are in the latter camp, I have yet to see an expansion of the free market that hasn't come at the expense of everyone who isn't playing the game the way capitalists want it to be played.

Irossia wrote:I'll actually take the NCR's side on this one. Money printing can cause inflation and is an unsustainable framework that Keynesian economics relies upon. The Gold Standard limits those price increases and monetary supply increases in favor of a more stable system that doesn't take unnecessary risks at the expense at the people.

"Stability under a Gold Standard system" is a myth. Its rigid gold supply limits price increases at the expense of the economy's growth and restricted the government's ability to respond to crises, resulting in long historical depressions and panics. The Long Depression in America and Europe lasted 6 years (1873-1879), or even 23 years (1873-1896) in Great Britain as a consequence of the contraction of money supply, which happened due to the abolition of bimetallism in the US.

Edit: Besides, the gold supply itself wasn't stable, gold rushes or any other sudden influxes of huge amounts of gold would destabilize its price as well and cause short-term price volatility.

Back money with commodities. Not just gold but a basket of goods like we use for the consumer price index.

Though the biggest issue with "capitalism" today is we've abandoned and undermined the institutions that keep greed in check; competitive markets, price system, private property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Indeed it would be more accurate to call what we have fascism then capitalism.

Abolish the minimum wage, abolish 8-hour workdays and let employers work their employees to any time, abolish all regulations, ban all unions and trade unions, remove all taxes from private corporations and shift all taxes to poor people, and let capitalists do everything.

After all, the goal of capitalism is to make profits, and making it easier for capitalists to turn a profit is the best way to improve it.

Haganham wrote:Back money with commodities. Not just gold but a basket of goods like we use for the consumer price index.

Though the biggest issue with "capitalism" today is we've abandoned and undermined the institutions that keep greed in check; competitive markets, price system, private property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Indeed it would be more accurate to call what we have fascism then capitalism.

Can you give an example of a time period where these principles weren't abandoned, and if so, how was that time period better than what we have now?

Some food for thoughts:

I presume OP is from America and thats a good example of a country where the current development stage of capitalism is rapidly approaching a point where it is no longer working out for the majority of the people unlike in the past. The reasons it did worked well in the past, was due specific historical and material conditions around that time. For example by 1945 a huge amount of global industrial production was centered in the US, which on top had a smaller total population then. It's not rocket science that this allowed for a decent living standard of the american working class at that time.

Regardless, that is all history now and one important thing that many people do fail to understand is that for those and other reasons those times aren't coming back. It doesn't takes necessarily a left-wing perspective to understand that.

So what has been offered to the american voter in this aspect? Two dishes got on the menu

A) is some vague promises mixed with a lot of identity politics mixed with a patronizing, hostile attitude towards the working class and the common man from the street.

B) is the fraudalent promise of a return to a past that has ceased to exist and can and will never come back.

Go figure...

Umeria wrote:

Haganham wrote:Back money with commodities. Not just gold but a basket of goods like we use for the consumer price index.

Though the biggest issue with "capitalism" today is we've abandoned and undermined the institutions that keep greed in check; competitive markets, price system, private property rights recognition, voluntary exchange, and wage labor. Indeed it would be more accurate to call what we have fascism then capitalism.

Can you give an example of a time period where these principles weren't abandoned, and if so, how was that time period better than what we have now?

No, because even in a given time period societies are not monolithic, as you knew when posting this bad faith response..

Haganham wrote:

Umeria wrote:Can you give an example of a time period where these principles weren't abandoned, and if so, how was that time period better than what we have now?

No, because even in a given time period societies are not monolithic, as you knew when posting this bad faith response..

Abandoned implies that they were at one point followed, so I did actually expect you to have an example of when that was.

Just abolish capitalism and replace it with socialism, which historically has consistently improved the standard of living for the masses wherever it has been implemented. Of course during the transition stage things will be difficult but overall if we want people and our planet to survive, we have to make the switch

1. Take essentials (healthcare, housing, infrastructure, etc) out of the market system and make them universal.
2. Enact strong labor protections and environmental regulations.
3. Get money out of politics, removing the incentive to roll back steps 1 and 2.

Guaranteed social democratic utopia follows.

Umeria wrote:

Haganham wrote:No, because even in a given time period societies are not monolithic, as you knew when posting this bad faith response..

Abandoned implies that they were at one point followed, so I did actually expect you to have an example of when that was.

As an example the late 1940's and early 20th century where when we had the strongest institutions of market competition. With the government stepping in to break up attempts at monopolies

Haganham wrote:

Umeria wrote:Abandoned implies that they were at one point followed, so I did actually expect you to have an example of when that was.

As an example the late 1940's and early 20th century where when we had the strongest institutions of market competition. With the government stepping in to break up attempts at monopolies

Well, I can agree with you there. Private monopolies are bad.

Free Markets, no government regulation, abolishment of Patents, returning to the gold standard, and of course Anarcho-Capitalism.

Capitalism is perfect and is really the only moral option.