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Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

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Fassitude
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Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Fassitude » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:00 pm

I read a very interesting piece written about the reaction to Michael Jackson's death not centred on the death itself, but how we choose to remember those who have passed on. It is written by the contemporary Swedish author Jonas Gardell:

In the avalanche of articles and comments that have been posted since Michael Jackson died - if one googles Michael Jackson one currently gets 377 million hits! - it is remarkable how often it is written that we should now disregard the "bizarre" in the star's life. That is to say, what Michael Jackson became, the way he chose to live his life, and instead remember the "good", what he once was, in other words, when he was still a highly achieving, singing Negro.

That he himself many times talked about how immeasurably unhappy he was as a drilled child star, we can ignore. The Washington Post even flatly states: "but let us put that aside and think of him as he was when he was at the top of his career, when he sang and danced so well..."

One of the most common verses quoted in obituaries is: "I minnet Du lever, Du finns alltid kvar. I minnet vi ser Dig, precis som Du var." (In memory You live, You always remain. In memory we see You, just as You were.) The ethnologist Ingeborg Svensson writes in her doctoral thesis "The corpse in the closet: a study of sexuality, lifestyle and burial (2007)" about how this very verse is used by a mother after her son has died of AIDS. The son had been an active leather fag in the Big City, in the obituary that his boyfriend submitted one could find a picture of a teddy bear with a harness instead of a black cross. The mother chose to completely disregard the son's adult, self-chosen life. The boyfriend was omitted from the obituary she entered, and the deceased was presented as "My Beloved Son" and "Our Dear Brother", as if he had had no adult life whatsoever, followed by the verse "In memory we see You, just as You were", and finally one was asked to donate to a cancer charity.

What we should remember is thus "as You were". Before. Before everything. Before the sickness. Before the homo sex. Before the nightmare. Then, when the deceased was a "son" and a "brother", not that strange creature the Big City had turned him into, that which ultimately killed him.

In the same way we are now urged to remember Michael Jackson "just as he was", that is to say before. Before the strange Michael Jackson. Before the bizarre Michael Jackson who according to the The Guardian spent his final years "mutating into an ever weirder version of himself, so as to become an object that best belonged in a celebrity zoo." In other words: before his transgressing, self-chosen adult life.

And we even fancy ourselves magnanimous in doing so. When we disregard who he actually was. Because initially one is born and becomes what others say that one is. Then one can give birth to oneself anew, if one has the energy, if one has the power and the courage. It is a grand thing to do. And a brave thing.

I have occasionally written about Michael Jackson over the years and in March of this year I received a letter from someone who wrote: "I am frightened by Michael Jackson's face. It doesn't seem real, if one puts it that way." In a similar fashion we have all agreed that Michael Jackson's face wasn't real. We pity him, for what did that poor man do to himself! We assume that he was unhappy.

He, who was as handsome as he was, and sang and danced so well!

But perhaps we should sometime dare to think the thought that he was a man who could afford all the top plastic surgeons, perhaps his face was the result of something he himself wanted. Perhaps this face with its thin nose, broad chin with an artificial dimple, this white-painted face, this straightened hair, these false eyelashes, these tattooed lips, was what Michael Jackson wanted to look like.

Perhaps it corresponded to his own self-image.
Perhaps he thought he was beautiful.
Perhaps he was beautiful.

In my monologue "Scheherzad" from 1999 I describe the English eccentric Quentin Crisp: "I had to make the best of a bad situation and I did so with the aid of thick layers of foundation, eye shadow, lipstick and mascara. The strange thing is that the more I painted myself, the more like myself I became. Through the makeup emerged that which was I. The more artificial, the more real. In the end I was completely myself. Pleased, I went out into the street and was promptly arrested for lascivious behaviour."

That which is deemed "bizarre" is all that Michael Jackson as an adult chose to recreate himself as: a man that transgressed against all boundaries and all norms. He was a black man who looked white, a man who looked like a woman, an adult who wanted to be a child. In the end perhaps Michael Jackson was completely himself.

And we hated him for it.

As every deviant is hated. As every organism tries to reject what it recognises as foreign. Is there another public person of our age that has had to withstand as much hatred as he? Now when he is dead, we take him back into our graces. Like the parents of fags took back their children, de-homosexualised them and once again made them "sons" and "brothers". Often as an act of consideration and magnanimity.

We disregard the "bizarre" and think of Michael Jackson as he was "at the top of his career, when he sang and danced so well..." In memory we see You just as You were.

And in so doing abuse the deceased once more.

Jonas Gardell

PS. Several of you have drawn parallels between Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley. I should rather like to point out the similarities (towards the end even an outer similarity) with Oscar Wilde. I will return to that in an additional article. DS!


His own parallel to the de-fagification of the men who died in the wake of the AIDS epidemic strikes very close to my home. I shudder to think what my own mother would try to portray me as should I get run over by the bus tomorrow: the "good son" who went into higher learning, became a doctor and is to be an object of social envy. Not as the wretched fag she prefers to make pretend doesn't exist to her friends and family.

What would you hate to be remembered as? What would you fear others would want to make you be remembered as?
Last edited by Fassitude on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:06 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Maurepas » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:03 pm

That guy who used to bullshit about politics, philosophy and science....

And hopefully make my mark on some students when I finish getting my teaching degree...

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:09 pm

I think Jonas Gardell is an idiot. Perhpas he hated Michael Jackson, but he doesn't write for everyone - and his apparent belief that he does is nonsensical hubris.

He also clearly misses the point - we don't remember people by design. We remember them how we remember them, and if that doesn't agree with a democratic assessment of that person, or how they would describe themselves - that's not a conflict. Our remembering is subjective, not objective... because that's what memory is.


As for how I'll be remembered... I'll be happy if I think that those who want to remember me, will remember me fondly, and those who don't... forget me.

I don't care if they remember me as the platinum-blonde skinny 5 year old, the mathematical prodigy schoolchild, the grunge-clad university student, or the leather and latex goth. I don't care if they remember me for things I achieved, or just for how I made them feel. I'll be dead. It makes no difference to me.
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Fassitude
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Fassitude » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:16 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:I think Jonas Gardell is an idiot.

One more honour to him, as it would be us all, rest assured, seeing as how once again you manage to miss the entire point of... well, almost everything, and then accuse him of missing the point. I think I shall remember you as that. Should we for a second pretend I'd remember you.
Last edited by Fassitude on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby New Limacon » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:18 pm

Fassitude wrote:*snip*

The article's interesting and true for many recently dead people (such as the young man it brings up), but for Michael Jackson, inaccurate. There's every reason to believe Michael Jackson wasn't happy, based on his life as a child entertainer, his family upbringing, and yes, his extreme plastic surgery. But I haven't seen anyone say "Jackson wanted to look white, that's proves he was incredibly depressed" but rather "this surgery and lifestyle is in keeping with how thoughts about his upbringing." I'm not sure there ever was a time when he was the "beloved son and brother" or the kid in the picture holding a teddy bear, and that's what's so unhappy. He never had a chance to have a self-chosen adult life, everything was inflicted on him.

As for the questions: I haven't done anything my family opposes enough to worry about them ignoring it, but I would not like to be remembered as a student, which is how I probably will be if I die anytime soon (being a student and all).
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:21 pm

Fassitude wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:I think Jonas Gardell is an idiot.

One more honour to him, as it would be us all, rest assured, seeing as how once again you manage to miss the entire point of... well, almost everything, and then accuse him of missing the point. I think I shall remember you as that. Should we for a second pretend I'd remember you.


If you present someone's words, you should expect people to respond to them. If you're going to get precious about the commentary, don't present it in the first place.

At least I explained where I thought he was wrong - which is better than you managed in your pointless vitriol aimed at me.

If you can't post any reply to me that's not an attack, do me favor and stop wasting my time.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Crownstar » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:23 pm

Watch joe jackson at the Bet awards, what a bitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCc3NHRrTOc

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Inchland » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:25 pm

Ok so i dont have the time to read all the article, or i can't be bothered reading it im not sure, but i think we should remember him for what he was at the height of his career when he truely was a legend, way back in the Thriller and the Bad era. Not for what he recently apparently did, we must accept the turbulence of his early life as part of the cause of his demise. But above all that, his amazing music and dancing and the impact he had on the whole world is what must be remembered.

R.I.P Michael, Legend :bow:
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Conserative Morality » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:25 pm

I'd hate to be remembered only by my relation to my family.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:27 pm

New Limacon wrote:
Fassitude wrote:*snip*

The article's interesting and true for many recently dead people (such as the young man it brings up), but for Michael Jackson, inaccurate. There's every reason to believe Michael Jackson wasn't happy, based on his life as a child entertainer, his family upbringing, and yes, his extreme plastic surgery. But I haven't seen anyone say "Jackson wanted to look white, that's proves he was incredibly depressed" but rather "this surgery and lifestyle is in keeping with how thoughts about his upbringing." I'm not sure there ever was a time when he was the "beloved son and brother" or the kid in the picture holding a teddy bear, and that's what's so unhappy. He never had a chance to have a self-chosen adult life, everything was inflicted on him.


If you saw the interview a few years ago, where he talked about savage, savage beatings 'whenever he could catch me'... and you remember the psychological analysis from a little earlier in his career that 'he was a child that never grew up', MIchael Jackson didn't really make the choices that are claimed for him. He didn't choose to act like a child - he was a child. He just lived in a bigger body. He didn't choose to deform his body, his friend Deepak Chopra says Michael Jackson was deformed by Lupus, and other things that can be traced to weaknesses introduced by his treatment as a child.

When someone judges him on how he looked, or quirks of his behaviour, what they are really judging him on, is the scars of his abuse. They're not really judging him, at all.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:28 pm

I have no comment on the article, but I'll answer your two questions.

Fassitude wrote:What would you hate to be remembered as?


What I am currently. I would hate to be remembered as the person who has been the places I've been, done the things I've done, and become the person I am. The last picture that exists of me was taken in early 2001 (other than driver's license and passport), and I prefer it that way. It's preferable to me that I be remembered as what I was, not what I am.

What would you fear others would want to make you be remembered as?


Hmm. I don't fear anything, really. However, I feel that I'll probably be remembered as the boy who disappeared, and no one knows what happened to him. I don't mean disappeared in the sense of a missing person, but that the person that they once knew vanished, overnight, and became someone else.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Inchland » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:30 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:

If you saw the interview a few years ago, where he talked about savage, savage beatings 'whenever he could catch me'... and you remember the psychological analysis from a little earlier in his career that 'he was a child that never grew up', MIchael Jackson didn't really make the choices that are claimed for him. He didn't choose to act like a child - he was a child. He just lived in a bigger body. He didn't choose to deform his body, his friend Deepak Chopra says Michael Jackson was deformed by Lupus, and other things that can be traced to weaknesses introduced by his treatment as a child.

When someone judges him on how he looked, or quirks of his behaviour, what they are really judging him on, is the scars of his abuse. They're not really judging him, at all.



Very well put, i could not agree more, well said
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:31 pm

Galloism wrote:What I am currently. I would hate to be remembered as the person who has been the places I've been, done the things I've done, and become the person I am. The last picture that exists of me was taken in early 2001 (other than driver's license and passport), and I prefer it that way. It's preferable to me that I be remembered as what I was, not what I am.


That's... odd. It sounds like the sort of thing 'fallen' celebrities say.

I don't mean it's odd that you're happy to be remembered for things earlier in your life... I mean, it seems odd that you explicitly don't want to be remembered for who you are, now.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Altergo » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:32 pm

Crownstar wrote:Watch joe jackson at the Bet awards, what a bitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCc3NHRrTOc

I no longer respect him, that Bitch >:(

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:33 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:That's... odd. It sounds like the sort of thing 'fallen' celebrities say.

I don't mean it's odd that you're happy to be remembered for things earlier in your life... I mean, it seems odd that you explicitly don't want to be remembered for who you are, now.


Well, psychologically speaking, I have an entirely unhealthy level of self-hate. You see, I can see what I am now and am unhappy with it. Maybe someday I'll be able to make it better, and I'm working towards that, but if I were to die tomorrow, I would prefer not to be remembered for the person I am today.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Perm Krai » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:38 pm

Jackson wanted to look white


As I recall Jackson going from Black to White was a result of skin conditions Vitiligo and Systemic lupus erythematosus.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Inchland » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:38 pm

Crownstar wrote:Watch joe jackson at the Bet awards, what a bitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCc3NHRrTOc


Wow he is strange wtf is wrong with him he doesn't really seem to give a shit at all
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:53 pm

Galloism wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:That's... odd. It sounds like the sort of thing 'fallen' celebrities say.

I don't mean it's odd that you're happy to be remembered for things earlier in your life... I mean, it seems odd that you explicitly don't want to be remembered for who you are, now.


Well, psychologically speaking, I have an entirely unhealthy level of self-hate. You see, I can see what I am now and am unhappy with it. Maybe someday I'll be able to make it better, and I'm working towards that, but if I were to die tomorrow, I would prefer not to be remembered for the person I am today.


Like I said, it just seemed... odd. Maybe I've just lived a sufficiently tame existence that there's nothing about me I look at and say "I'd change that'... or at least, not enough that it makes me wish this current version didn't exist.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Hydesland » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:55 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:Perhpas he hated Michael Jackson, but he doesn't write for everyone - and his apparent belief that he does is nonsensical hubris.


Of course he does, those 50 shows MJ sold out in London were all bought by people intending to shout abuse at him.

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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:56 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:Perhpas he hated Michael Jackson, but he doesn't write for everyone - and his apparent belief that he does is nonsensical hubris.


Of course he does, those 50 shows MJ sold out in London were all bought by people intending to shout abuse at him.


Obviously. And they shell out $20 a CD just so they can break them as protest.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:57 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:Like I said, it just seemed... odd. Maybe I've just lived a sufficiently tame existence that there's nothing about me I look at and say "I'd change that'... or at least, not enough that it makes me wish this current version didn't exist.


Fortunate for you. I've lived a sufficiently... abnormal existence to regret a great many things. Like I said, I'm not wallowing in self-pity here, and I am trying to make things better, but if I were to die tomorrow, I'd prefer they go back a ways in my life before they start talking about it.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:58 pm

Fassitude wrote:I read a very interesting piece written about the reaction to Michael Jackson's death not centred on the death itself, but how we choose to remember those who have passed on. It is written by the contemporary Swedish author Jonas Gardell:

*snip*

His own parallel to the de-fagification of the men who died in the wake of the AIDS epidemic strikes very close to my home. I shudder to think what my own mother would try to portray me as should I get run over by the bus tomorrow: the "good son" who went into higher learning, became a doctor and is to be an object of social envy. Not as the wretched fag she prefers to make pretend doesn't exist to her friends and family.

What would you hate to be remembered as? What would you fear others would want to make you be remembered as?


I wouldn't want to be remembered as the type of self-centered prick that made the death of a celebrity all about me.

I also wouldn't want to be remembered for inappropriate relations with children.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:01 pm

Galloism wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:Like I said, it just seemed... odd. Maybe I've just lived a sufficiently tame existence that there's nothing about me I look at and say "I'd change that'... or at least, not enough that it makes me wish this current version didn't exist.


Fortunate for you. I've lived a sufficiently... abnormal existence to regret a great many things. Like I said, I'm not wallowing in self-pity here, and I am trying to make things better, but if I were to die tomorrow, I'd prefer they go back a ways in my life before they start talking about it.


I can see that, now. I was pretty sure you weren't a former daytime soap queen, or the singer from a one hit wonder, so there seemed to be a disconnect to the "I want to be remembered for what I was" kind of vibe.

I don't know if I'm 'fortunate' as such - there are many times in my life when I faced two choices, and I looked ahead and saw what was likely coming down the line one those paths, and picked the one I felt I could live with the choice. Sometimes big choices - like not going in the Army after all... sometimes much smaller choices, like walking out of a job selling insurance. Although - if that still means I'm 'fortunate', then I embrace it, and don't want to say a bad thing about it. :D
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Jordaxia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:04 pm

What would I hate to be remembered as? A male.
What do I fear people will remember me as? A male.

It's a largely irrational fear now that I've friends that have only ever known me as myself, but I've been worried about effects my admittedly largely supportive family might have on a funeral. I guess at the moment what would actually concern me is that people don't remember me, more than anything.
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Re: Why we love to hate Jackson, or being remembered as we were

Postby Galloism » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:07 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:I can see that, now. I was pretty sure you weren't a former daytime soap queen, or the singer from a one hit wonder, so there seemed to be a disconnect to the "I want to be remembered for what I was" kind of vibe.


I was a porn star, and if you believe that, I have some oceanfront property in Nevada to sell you.

Grave_n_idle wrote:I don't know if I'm 'fortunate' as such - there are many times in my life when I faced two choices, and I looked ahead and saw what was likely coming down the line one those paths, and picked the one I felt I could live with the choice. Sometimes big choices - like not going in the Army after all... sometimes much smaller choices, like walking out of a job selling insurance. Although - if that still means I'm 'fortunate', then I embrace it, and don't want to say a bad thing about it. :D


Perhaps more intelligent, then. I'll admit I lacked foresight on a great many things. It's not that I couldn't "see" what was coming down the pipe, but more than I didn't really care at the time. Oh boy, how I care now, but it's kinda late, you know? Now I get to deal with the consequences of my actions. Such is life, and I hope to pull out eventually, but it will take some time.

Until then, I prefer people to think of me in better times.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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