Freedom or Happiness?

[Riaka]

Which do you think is more important, personally? Simply, would you rather have free will- and that's up to you to define as you wish- or to feel happy?

Granted, freedom does often beget happiness. But that's not what I'm asking- I mean only would you rather have freedom to decide things for yourself, or total and uncompromisable contentment with the state of your existence?

[The State of Arizona]

I can't seperate them, freedom makes me happy.

Sorry if it's a bad answer.

[Zykorinov]

Freedom leads to happiness.

[Riaka]

Freedom leads to happiness.

What about when someone else's freedom trumps yours? Freedom is not a guarantee of happiness. It simply means you are allowed to alter the environment in such a way that you may create happiness for yourself.

But, what if you could simply have happiness, without concern for freedom? Would you take that instead?

[Zykorinov]

Freedom leads to happiness.

What about when someone else's freedom trumps yours? Freedom is not a guarantee of happiness. It simply means you are allowed to alter the environment in such a way that you may create happiness for yourself.

But, what if you could simply have happiness, without concern for freedom? Would you take that instead?

Depends. I would take happiness if freedom was not an issue.

[WWII History Geeks]

Freedom, damnit. Happiness is empty anyways.

[The Adrian Empire]

I can't seperate them, freedom makes me happy.

Sorry if it's a bad answer.

This, I would die happier as a starving free man, then a fed and cared for slave.

Happiness is unattainable, it is a goal that requires freedom to pursue, for so long as we are free we may chase our own individual happiness for ourselves. And in the process we will have progressed society ever further. The very act of choice confers happiness, no one is truly happy when they are force fed, even if the taste of the feed is good.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Depends on what taking either entails.

If no freedoms meaning chained to a door and the happiness meaning injected with happy drugs 24/7. Then no.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

I can't seperate them, freedom makes me happy.

Sorry if it's a bad answer.

This, I would die happier as a starving free man, then a fed and cared for slave.

According to parameters you have one or the others, not both. Sorry.

[Riaka]

Depends on what taking either entails.

If no freedoms meaning chained to a door and the happiness meaning injected with happy drugs 24/7. Then no.

Why not? Does it matter what you're doing so long as you feel good doing it? What is it about freedom that we find so valuable, as opposed to simply fulfilling our base needs?

[Free Soviets]

both are necessary conditions for flourishing, which is the real priority. neither are sufficient.

[North Wiedna]

Freedom eventually brings happiness.

[Tunizcha]

Give me freedom, or give me death.

[Free Soviets]

Freedom eventually brings happiness.

maybe in the aggregate, but certainly not for each particular individual.

[Zeppy]

EDM's flag brings me happiness and freedom.

[Yousand]

Freedom = Happiness

[Riaka]

both are necessary conditions for flourishing, which is the real priority. neither are sufficient.

Yes, but why flourish, when you can skip it and go directly to the reward?

*playing devil's advocate here*

[Free Soviets]

both are necessary conditions for flourishing, which is the real priority. neither are sufficient.

Yes, but why flourish, when you can skip it and go directly to the reward?

*playing devil's advocate here*

well, because when i (and i'm very tempted to say 'we') calmly contemplate the good life, the pleasure machine doesn't strike me as a worthwhile way to live. happiness must come in the right way for us to think it truly valuable, and we both will and should choose less happiness over more if the path to the lesser quantity is more 'real' or 'legitimate' or something.

[Riaka]

both are necessary conditions for flourishing, which is the real priority. neither are sufficient.

Yes, but why flourish, when you can skip it and go directly to the reward?

*playing devil's advocate here*

well, because when i (and i'm very tempted to say 'we') calmly contemplate the good life, the pleasure machine doesn't strike me as a worthwhile way to live. happiness must come in the right way for us to think it truly valuable, and we both will and should choose less happiness over more if the path to the lesser quantity is more 'real' or 'legitimate' or something.

But, what if we do get that true feeling of happiness? Not just empty, "ignorance is bliss" style contentment, but true pleasure?

[Soheran]

Freedom, technically--but that's misleading. I don't think our relationship to our freedom is comparable to our relationship to our happiness. The reason is bound up in the form of the question you are asking: to choose happiness over freedom would still be a free choice, and, further, one that implied opposition to coerced alternatives (because if we thought there were a better choice, we would have chosen it.)

Making the question political--"Is it better to have political freedom and general unhappiness, or a lack of political freedom and general happiness?"--allows for a more meaningful answer. For me, it's the same: a government that is opposed by the public over which it rules is illegitimate whatever good consequences it brings about.

[Ifreann]

Freepiness.

[Soheran]

But, what if we do get that true feeling of happiness? Not just empty, "ignorance is bliss" style contentment, but true pleasure?

We don't want that.

Oh, a lot of us think we do... and maybe a few poor souls actually do. But for most human beings, if you get them to actually think about it, they are often quite a bit more concerned with having good reasons for happiness than for having the particular "feeling."

I don't want to make a difference in the world because it would make me feel good; it would make me feel good because I want to make a difference in the world. If I were somehow deceived into thinking that I was making a difference, I would still have the feeling, but such a life would not, in my mind, be a good life; indeed, it would be worse than an alternative in which I wasn't making a difference and knew that (quite aside from any opportunity to change things).

SImilarly, most of us want friends who actually care about us, not friends who just pretend to--even if they are really really good liars. We want to exist in a certain way above and beyond any interest we have in having certain feelings. So there is nothing incoherent or even particularly strange about arguing that happiness would not be valuable outside of a certain method of achieving it: indeed, it's quite typical of human attitudes, deeply considered.

[Riaka]

But, what if we do get that true feeling of happiness? Not just empty, "ignorance is bliss" style contentment, but true pleasure?

We don't want that.

Oh, a lot of us think we do... and maybe a few poor souls actually do. But for most human beings, if you get them to actually think about it, they are often quite a bit more concerned with having good reasons for happiness than for having the particular "feeling."

I don't want to make a difference in the world because it would make me feel good; it would make me feel good because I want to make a difference in the world. If I were somehow deceived into thinking that I was making a difference, I would still have the feeling, but such a life would not, in my mind, be a good life; indeed, it would be worse than an alternative in which I wasn't making a difference and knew that (quite aside from any opportunity to change things).

SImilarly, most of us want friends who actually care about us, not friends who just pretend to--even if they are really really good liars. We want to exist in a certain way above and beyond any interest we have in having certain feelings. So there is nothing incoherent or even particularly strange about arguing that happiness would not be valuable outside of a certain method of achieving it: indeed, it's quite typical of human attitudes, deeply considered.

So freedom is in fact preferable to happiness? Roger dodger.

[Georgism]

Freedom. If you're free you can buy Crack legally.

[Ravea]

You can take my happiness, but you can never take....

MY FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM