What do you think of Communism

[Wisteria and Surrounding Territories]

Like communism genuinely feels like a religion.

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: Creationism
Communism: Humans aren’t naturally selfish and greedy

It has saints
Religion: Tons of examples
Communism: Marx, Engels, Mao, Lenin, etc

It has a strict doctrine

It has multiple sects/variations

There is a holy book/books

When they are criticized they cite the holy book

Anyone who doesn’t believe in their ideology is treated as heathens or sinners (or in the case of communists, non believers are called bougie sympathizers or fascists)

Both communism and religions have caused mass death

Like communism is literally a godless religion.

Physics is just like a religion

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: creationism
Physics: So many free parameters of the Standard Model, the Big Bang, etc.

It has saints like Feynman, Einstein, Gell-Mann, and Minkowski

It has a strict doctrine yet with multiple sects (Everettians, Pilot-Wave Theorists, String Theorists, MOND, Loop-Quantum gravity)

There are holy books (praise Griffiths)

When they are criticized they site these holy books

Anyone who doesn't believe their 'science' (ideology) is derided as "stupid" or a "grifter".

Both physics and religion have caused immense human suffering and death.

Really physics is just a godless religion.

In a sense, everything is some kind of religion. We may think our science is correct, but in 200 years, they'll look back at us like we're stupid.

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

Physics is just like a religion

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: creationism
Physics: So many free parameters of the Standard Model, the Big Bang, etc.

It has saints like Feynman, Einstein, Gell-Mann, and Minkowski

It has a strict doctrine yet with multiple sects (Everettians, Pilot-Wave Theorists, String Theorists, MOND, Loop-Quantum gravity)

There are holy books (praise Griffiths)

When they are criticized they site these holy books

Anyone who doesn't believe their 'science' (ideology) is derided as "stupid" or a "grifter".

Both physics and religion have caused immense human suffering and death.

Really physics is just a godless religion.

My honest reaction: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h_JJm5ETN ... aGluZyA%3D

Buddy, physics is actually PROVEN, with MATH and LOGIC.

Religion and communism are literally just “Guys society would be so good if we all just followed these rules.”

[Valrifall]

Physics is just like a religion

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: creationism
Physics: So many free parameters of the Standard Model, the Big Bang, etc.

It has saints like Feynman, Einstein, Gell-Mann, and Minkowski

It has a strict doctrine yet with multiple sects (Everettians, Pilot-Wave Theorists, String Theorists, MOND, Loop-Quantum gravity)

There are holy books (praise Griffiths)

When they are criticized they site these holy books

Anyone who doesn't believe their 'science' (ideology) is derided as "stupid" or a "grifter".

Both physics and religion have caused immense human suffering and death.

Really physics is just a godless religion.

Uh... You do understand how science, like physics, works? You know, the whole exploring new evidence and changing ideas thing?

I'm a physicist.

[Valrifall]

Religious belief, economic philosophy, and science don't really correlate with each other.

Exactly.

Arguing "x" is a religion betrays a lack of understanding of both x and religion. What a religion even is, is a matter of scholarly debate beyond the grasp of randos online.

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

Uh... You do understand how science, like physics, works? You know, the whole exploring new evidence and changing ideas thing?

I'm a physicist.

*Press X to doubt*

[Stellar Colonies]

Like communism genuinely feels like a religion.

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: Creationism
Communism: Humans aren’t naturally selfish and greedy

It has saints
Religion: Tons of examples
Communism: Marx, Engels, Mao, Lenin, etc

It has a strict doctrine

It has multiple sects/variations

There is a holy book/books

When they are criticized they cite the holy book

Anyone who doesn’t believe in their ideology is treated as heathens or sinners (or in the case of communists, non believers are called bougie sympathizers or fascists)

Both communism and religions have caused mass death

Like communism is literally a godless religion.

Physics is just like a religion

It denies logic if it disproves their beliefs

Religion: creationism
Physics: So many free parameters of the Standard Model, the Big Bang, etc.

It has saints like Feynman, Einstein, Gell-Mann, and Minkowski

It has a strict doctrine yet with multiple sects (Everettians, Pilot-Wave Theorists, String Theorists, MOND, Loop-Quantum gravity)

There are holy books (praise Griffiths)

When they are criticized they site these holy books

Anyone who doesn't believe their 'science' (ideology) is derided as "stupid" or a "grifter".

Both physics and religion have caused immense human suffering and death.

Really physics is just a godless religion.

In a sense, everything is some kind of religion. We may think our science is correct, but in 200 years, they'll look back at us like we're stupid.

Ptolemy's model of the universe was a decent one considering the contemporary understanding of the universe. It matched observations of the sky, allowed for predictions, and generally worked according to what they had at the time to test it. The issue with it is that more refined observations and measurements (such as Venus's phases proving that it orbited the Sun) showed more and more flaws with it which forced ever more elaborate tinkering (such as the Tycho version of planets orbiting the Sun while the Sun, stars, and Moon orbited Earth), and eventually it was superseded by a new model of planets orbiting the Sun in ellipses which was simpler and delivered more accurate predictions, which is why the old one was thrown out.

Our current models of reality are the same, they're just supported by much more elaborate reasoning and technology.

Not quite the same as a religion.

[Maximum Imperium Rex]

I'm a physicist.

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously still don't understand how science works.

[Valrifall]

I'm a physicist.

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously still don't understand how science works.

My point was not seriously arguing that physics is a religion, it was to demonstrate the absurdity of Valle's criterion for religion by showing how something demonstrably non-religion-like fits those criteria.

My argument is that his argument is bad. That's all.

[Wisteria and Surrounding Territories]

In a sense, everything is some kind of religion. We may think our science is correct, but in 200 years, they'll look back at us like we're stupid.

Ptolemy's model of the universe was a decent one considering the contemporary understanding of the universe. It matched observations of the sky, allowed for predictions, and generally worked according to what they had at the time to test it. The issue with it is that more refined observations and measurements (such as Venus's phases proving that it orbited the Sun) showed more and more flaws with it which forced ever more elaborate tinkering (such as the Tycho version of planets orbiting the Sun while the Sun, stars, and Moon orbited Earth), and eventually it was superseded by a new model of planets orbiting the Sun in ellipses which was simpler and delivered more accurate predictions, which is why the old one was thrown out.

Our current models of reality are the same, they're just supported by much more elaborate reasoning and technology.

Not quite the same as a religion.

Yeah, I was trying to sound philosophical. I guess it wasn't that good...

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

What does that have to do with anything? You obviously still don't understand how science works.

My point was not seriously arguing that physics is a religion, it was to demonstrate the absurdity of Valle's criterion for religion by showing how something demonstrably non-religion-like fits those criteria.

My argument is that his argument is bad. That's all.

So you refute a bad argument with another even worse argument to prove that your failure of an ideology isn’t a pseudo-religion.

Bruh my brain hurts

[Valrifall]

My point was not seriously arguing that physics is a religion, it was to demonstrate the absurdity of Valle's criterion for religion by showing how something demonstrably non-religion-like fits those criteria.

My argument is that his argument is bad. That's all.

So you refute a bad argument with another even worse argument to prove that your failure of an ideology isn’t a pseudo-religion.

Bruh my brain hurts

No I demonstrate that your argument holds no water since any random assortment of ideologies or sciences meets your definition of religion.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

the constant and obscene banging on in this thread on how humanity as a whole actually doesn't give a fuck about the extremely human things like empathy and giving a fuck about eachother makes me sad smfh

Yes, banging on about this nonsense is fucking obscene.

[Elwher]

Religious belief, economic philosophy, and science don't really correlate with each other.

True. However, the behavior patterns of many of their followers do have striking similarities.

[Stellar Colonies]

Ptolemy's model of the universe was a decent one considering the contemporary understanding of the universe. It matched observations of the sky, allowed for predictions, and generally worked according to what they had at the time to test it. The issue with it is that more refined observations and measurements (such as Venus's phases proving that it orbited the Sun) showed more and more flaws with it which forced ever more elaborate tinkering (such as the Tycho version of planets orbiting the Sun while the Sun, stars, and Moon orbited Earth), and eventually it was superseded by a new model of planets orbiting the Sun in ellipses which was simpler and delivered more accurate predictions, which is why the old one was thrown out.

Our current models of reality are the same, they're just supported by much more elaborate reasoning and technology.

Not quite the same as a religion.

Yeah, I was trying to sound philosophical. I guess it wasn't that good...

It is true though that our scientific models currently will probably be looked upon as naive in 200 years, unless we regress or die out. And if some people still like what our current models have, they might cling to them with an almost religious fervor.

Would be funny if a new model ruled out dark matter as a concept, but we had conspiratorial groups screaming about how Big Baryon is hiding the "truth" out there.

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

the constant and obscene banging on in this thread on how humanity as a whole actually doesn't give a fuck about the extremely human things like empathy and giving a fuck about eachother makes me sad smfh

Yes, banging on about this nonsense is fucking obscene.

I mean I’m not the one who supports an ideology repsonblenfor the death of hmm… let me actually calculate this:

About 4 million deaths under Stalin with Holodomor, and another 14 million for the Gulags

40-80 million under Mao, so let’s go with conservative estimates and go with 40 million

Not to mention the countless other atrocities.

That totals to around 58 MILLION deaths with conservative estimates.


And then communists cope and say “But it wasn’t real communism”. On paper communism sounds wonderful, but humans don’t work that way and don’t think logically enough for communism to work.

How much bloodshed will it take to realize that Communism. DOES. NOT. WORK. (At least on large scales anyway, I could see it working in isolated tribes on islands)

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

Religious belief, economic philosophy, and science don't really correlate with each other.

True. However, the behavior patterns of many of their followers do have striking similarities.

Agreed

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

the constant and obscene banging on in this thread on how humanity as a whole actually doesn't give a fuck about the extremely human things like empathy and giving a fuck about eachother makes me sad smfh

Yes, banging on about this nonsense is fucking obscene.

I mean I’m not the one who supports an ideology repsonblenfor the death of hmm… let me actually calculate this:

About 4 million deaths under Stalin with Holodomor, and another 14 million for the Gulags

40-80 million under Mao, so let’s go with conservative estimates and go with 40 million

Not to mention the countless other atrocities.

That totals to around 58 MILLION deaths with conservative estimates.


And then communists cope and say “But it wasn’t real communism”. On paper communism sounds wonderful, but humans don’t work that way and don’t think logically enough for communism to work.

How much bloodshed will it take to realize that Communism. DOES. NOT. WORK. (At least on large scales anyway, I could see it working in isolated tribes on islands)

Your deflection from your constant rejection of human empathy is noted.

[Phobos Drilling and Manufacturing]

I mean I’m not the one who supports an ideology repsonblenfor the death of hmm… let me actually calculate this:

About 4 million deaths under Stalin with Holodomor, and another 14 million for the Gulags

40-80 million under Mao, so let’s go with conservative estimates and go with 40 million

Not to mention the countless other atrocities.

That totals to around 58 MILLION deaths with conservative estimates.


And then communists cope and say “But it wasn’t real communism”. On paper communism sounds wonderful, but humans don’t work that way and don’t think logically enough for communism to work.

How much bloodshed will it take to realize that Communism. DOES. NOT. WORK. (At least on large scales anyway, I could see it working in isolated tribes on islands)

Your deflection from your constant rejection of human empathy is noted.

Brody just casually ignored the fact that communism caused 58 million deaths.

If we are talking about the “state of nature” I take a more Locke approach to things. Under a completely stateless society most people would be chill, but a govt would be needed to keep those who violate the NAP in check.

[Stellar Colonies]

the constant and obscene banging on in this thread on how humanity as a whole actually doesn't give a fuck about the extremely human things like empathy and giving a fuck about eachother makes me sad smfh

Yes, banging on about this nonsense is fucking obscene.

I mean I’m not the one who supports an ideology repsonblenfor the death of hmm… let me actually calculate this:

About 4 million deaths under Stalin with Holodomor, and another 14 million for the Gulags

40-80 million under Mao, so let’s go with conservative estimates and go with 40 million

Not to mention the countless other atrocities.

That totals to around 58 MILLION deaths with conservative estimates.


And then communists cope and say “But it wasn’t real communism”. On paper communism sounds wonderful, but humans don’t work that way and don’t think logically enough for communism to work.

How much bloodshed will it take to realize that Communism. DOES. NOT. WORK. (At least on large scales anyway, I could see it working in isolated tribes on islands)

The manifesto has a vaguely amusing "end of history" feel for me, although it's a decent stab at trying to lay out very real problems with capitalism which we still deal with nearly two hundred years later. Its ideas would need to be implemented in a way to keep some power hungry lunatic from interpreting ""dictatorship of the proletariat" as "dictatorship of me" and raising merry hell, which as with many revolutions is apparently rather difficult to keep from happening.

[New-Minneapolis]

Your deflection from your constant rejection of human empathy is noted.

Brody just casually ignored the fact that communism caused 58 million deaths.

Communists and tankies will just deny it, or say those weren't "true" communists.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Your deflection from your constant rejection of human empathy is noted.

Brody just casually ignored the fact that communism caused 58 million deaths.

If you want to start an atrocity olympics thread because you can't defend your assertment that empathy runs contrary to human nature, you are welcome to do so.

Brody just casually ignored the fact that communism caused 58 million deaths.

Communists and tankies will just deny it, or say those weren't "true" communists.

And You can go join him there too.

[New-Minneapolis]

Brody just casually ignored the fact that communism caused 58 million deaths.

If you want to start an atrocity olympics thread because you can't defend your assertment that empathy runs contrary to human nature, you are welcome to do so.

Are you claiming that one has to be a communist in order to be empathic?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

If you want to start an atrocity olympics thread because you can't defend your assertment that empathy runs contrary to human nature, you are welcome to do so.

Are you claiming that one has to be a communist in order to be empathic?

Communism: Humans aren’t naturally selfish and greedy

You might want to read back, Sire.

[Ifreann]

It's very hard to understand this "human nature" philosophy, I suspect because there's very little in the way of genuine thought behind it. As we see in this thread, the same people will say both that communism cannot work because of human nature, and also that evil communism killed 80 unvigintillion people. If there is such a thing as human nature that will inevitably and irresistibly control our actions, then how can anyone be blamed for all those deaths? Surely it was just their nature, same as a lion killing an antelope. And surely it must also be in our nature to pursue communism, otherwise why do people keep doing it? If the answer is that people can act against their nature, well then the original point that communism cannot work because of human nature is wrong.

[American Legionaries]

If you want to start an atrocity olympics thread because you can't defend your assertment that empathy runs contrary to human nature, you are welcome to do so.

Are you claiming that one has to be a communist in order to be empathic?

The implication does seem to be that empathy leads towards communist beliefs.