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What if America lost the War Of Independence

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:24 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Canada didn’t exist. It was all just British North America. Some North American Colonies sided with the British, some choose independence. If you think for a second the British would stop the genocide of natives that they actively encouraged then you are stating you know nothing.


The British would have cared more. They were in Ireland and parts of Africa and elsewhere for centuries and for the most part their respective peoples have not been genocided to the same degree Americans have done to tribes in North America.

Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.

The British model is more about trade and understanding, while the 13 colonies were more strongly geared towards colonization, exploitation, military conquest and genocide.

Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:29 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The British would have cared more. They were in Ireland and parts of Africa and elsewhere for centuries and for the most part their respective peoples have not been genocided to the same degree Americans have done to tribes in North America.

Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.

The British model is more about trade and understanding, while the 13 colonies were more strongly geared towards colonization, exploitation, military conquest and genocide.

Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:33 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.


Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

This is the dumbest thing you can continue to say and believe. It’s not just wrong, it’s offensively wrong. The British Empire committed dozens of genocides, the British Empire invented concentration camps, the British Empire paid bounties to hunt native peoples for sport.

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Deblar
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Postby Deblar » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:37 am

Cursed timeline. I'd rather be dead than British, or worse, *shudders*, Canadian.

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Comicsland
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Postby Comicsland » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:43 am

In my opinion,there probably would have been another War of Indipendence and the Americans would have become indipendent anyway,but a little bit after the USA of our timeline
Last edited by Comicsland on Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Platoon of Peace » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:59 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.


Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

That is just wrong. I'm sorry, but this isn't like an opinion thing or anything. This is just straight up wrong.
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Deblar
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Postby Deblar » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:10 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.


Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

The British didn't let them settle west of the Appalachians because it would've been harder to manage the colonies the further west they expanded, not because they respected the natives; if they did, they wouldn't have taken their lands east of the Appalachians

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:16 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.


Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.


The British Caribbean Islands want a word. As an FYI at least 48 countries celebrate the day they threw the brits out. Try learning some history.
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Postby Lomacrato » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:18 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Yeah, that’s stupid. You know literally nothing about anything here.


Literally the same model, you just don’t know anything.


The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

What the absolute hell! The British killed many people and excuted them, sometimes they even chopped their ears off, and even burned them alive. Didn't history class teach you that?
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Nova Catania
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Postby Nova Catania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:42 am

Lomacrato wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

What the absolute hell! The British killed many people and excuted them, sometimes they even chopped their ears off, and even burned them alive. Didn't history class teach you that?

Nope, Game of Thrones did.
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Erablegensstan
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Postby Erablegensstan » Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:26 am

Lomacrato wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

What the absolute hell! The British killed many people and excuted them, sometimes they even chopped their ears off, and even burned them alive. Didn't history class teach you that?


The chopping ear stuff sounds fanciful.
Don't like em, simple as.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:30 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.

This is the dumbest thing you can continue to say and believe. It’s not just wrong, it’s offensively wrong. The British Empire committed dozens of genocides, the British Empire invented concentration camps, the British Empire paid bounties to hunt native peoples for sport.


No, the British would have been better than the Americans in their treatment of natives. Here is a source.

https://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/am ... on-mistake

Independence was bad for Native Americans
Starting with the Proclamation of 1763, the British colonial government placed firm limits on westward settlement in the United States. It wasn't motivated by an altruistic desire to keep American Indians from being subjugated or anything; it just wanted to avoid border conflicts.

But all the same, the policy enraged American settlers, who were appalled that the British would seem to side with Indians over white men. "The British government remained willing to conceive of Native Americans as subjects of the crown, similar to colonists," Ethan Schmidt writes in Native Americans in the American Revolution. "American colonists … refused to see Indians as fellow subjects. Instead, they viewed them as obstacles in the way of their dreams of land ownership and trading wealth." This view is reflected in the Declaration of Independence, which attacks King George III for backing "merciless Indian Savages."

American independence made the proclamation void here. It's not void in Canada — indeed, there the 1763 proclamation is viewed as a fundamental document providing rights to self-government to First Nations tribes. It's mentioned explicitly in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada's Bill of Rights), which protects "any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763" for all aboriginal people. Historian Colin Calloway writes in The Scratch of a Pen: 1763 and the Transformation of North America that the proclamation "still forms the basis for dealings between Canada's government and Canada's First Nations."

And, unsurprisingly, Canada didn't see Indian wars and removals as large and sweeping as occurred in the US. They still committed horrible, indefensible crimes. Canada, under British rule and after, brutally mistreated aboriginal people, not least through government-inflicted famines and the state's horrific seizure of children from their families so they could attend residential schools. But the country didn't experience a westward expansion as violent and deadly as that pursued by the US government and settlers. Absent the revolution, Britain probably would've moved into Indian lands. But fewer people would have died.


Read the whole thing and you'll see that my point is correct. I understand that you are from the USA but you can't let that bias your assessment. There's a whole order of magnitude of difference in terms of what the British did and what the Americans did in North America. This is emphasised in the last paragraph. In history I learned that the British enforcing this 1763 proclamation is one of the root causes of the American Revolution, the USA literally fought the war in part because they wanted to colonise the Indians and Britain said "hey wait a minute, that's too much." Citing Canada/British North America and saying, "that's the same as what the USA pulled in North America" shows a grave misunderstanding of Canadian history. In terms of the numbers and the lands stolen and the magnitude of the mistreatment, it's not even close.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Deblar
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Postby Deblar » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:33 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:This is the dumbest thing you can continue to say and believe. It’s not just wrong, it’s offensively wrong. The British Empire committed dozens of genocides, the British Empire invented concentration camps, the British Empire paid bounties to hunt native peoples for sport.


No, the British would have been better than the Americans in their treatment of natives.

-snip-

The First Nations of Canada would like a word

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:34 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The British would have respected the native treaties. This is what they wanted in the OTL. It was the Americans that continued west of the 13 colonies for imperialistic gains.


The British Caribbean Islands want a word. As an FYI at least 48 countries celebrate the day they threw the brits out. Try learning some history.


Different part of the world effectively, entirely different cultural context.

The British ended slavery far earlier than the USA did. The economic forces in the Caribbean are absent in North America; there was no incentive to enslave thousands-millions of Indians to plant special cash crops. In North America, the Proclamation of 1763 is a foundational aspect of Canada/Britain's comparatively benign policies. In Canadian constitutional and common law, it's the foundation of the principle of the "honour of the Crown" which informs Aboriginal land laws to this day. It's not remotely comparable.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:34 am

Deblar wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
No, the British would have been better than the Americans in their treatment of natives.

-snip-

The First Nations of Canada would like a word


From the source:

American independence made the proclamation void here. It's not void in Canada — indeed, there the 1763 proclamation is viewed as a fundamental document providing rights to self-government to First Nations tribes. It's mentioned explicitly in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Canada's Bill of Rights), which protects "any rights or freedoms that have been recognized by the Royal Proclamation of October 7, 1763" for all aboriginal people. Historian Colin Calloway writes in The Scratch of a Pen: 1763 and the Transformation of North America that the proclamation "still forms the basis for dealings between Canada's government and Canada's First Nations."

And, unsurprisingly, Canada didn't see Indian wars and removals as large and sweeping as occurred in the US. They still committed horrible, indefensible crimes. Canada, under British rule and after, brutally mistreated aboriginal people, not least through government-inflicted famines and the state's horrific seizure of children from their families so they could attend residential schools. But the country didn't experience a westward expansion as violent and deadly as that pursued by the US government and settlers. Absent the revolution, Britain probably would've moved into Indian lands. But fewer people would have died.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:38 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
The British Caribbean Islands want a word. As an FYI at least 48 countries celebrate the day they threw the brits out. Try learning some history.


Different part of the world effectively, entirely different cultural context.

The British ended slavery far earlier than the USA did. The economic forces in the Caribbean are absent in North America; there was no incentive to enslave thousands-millions of Indians to plant special cash crops. In North America, the Proclamation of 1763 is a foundational aspect of Canada/Britain's comparatively benign policies. In Canadian constitutional and common law, it's the foundation of the principle of the "honour of the Crown" which informs Aboriginal land laws to this day. It's not remotely comparable.


Ever hear of sugar cane? Its what sugar comes from.. Backbreaking labor for the Caribbean slaves of the British empire.
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Countesia
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Postby Countesia » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:40 am

It probably would have gained independence in the aftermath of World War 1 because Britain would have been too broke and militarily exhausted to enforce any sort of authority over it.

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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:40 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Different part of the world effectively, entirely different cultural context.

The British ended slavery far earlier than the USA did. The economic forces in the Caribbean are absent in North America; there was no incentive to enslave thousands-millions of Indians to plant special cash crops. In North America, the Proclamation of 1763 is a foundational aspect of Canada/Britain's comparatively benign policies. In Canadian constitutional and common law, it's the foundation of the principle of the "honour of the Crown" which informs Aboriginal land laws to this day. It's not remotely comparable.


Ever hear of sugar cane? Its what sugar comes from.. Backbreaking labor for the Caribbean slaves of the British empire.


Yeah but the Caribbeans are fundamentally a separate economic dynamic from westward expansion past the Appalachians in America to the Pacific.

While technically in North America, it would be like comparing the Yukon's economic system and environment to Mexico.

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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:59 am

Deblar wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
No, the British would have been better than the Americans in their treatment of natives.

-snip-

The First Nations of Canada would like a word


They constantly fall into deaf ears to this day
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Kalivyah
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Postby Kalivyah » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:04 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Ayytaly wrote:Am I the only one who finds the U.S. gatekeeping of the term "America(n)" annoying? It's not like the 13 colonies were the only part of British America. Belize, Jamaica and Guyana say hi.

I got reamed for calling my self from America in Argentina

Who the fuck calls themselves "American" when they live in Argentina
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Ever hear of sugar cane? Its what sugar comes from.. Backbreaking labor for the Caribbean slaves of the British empire.


Yeah but the Caribbeans are fundamentally a separate economic dynamic from westward expansion past the Appalachians in America to the Pacific.

While technically in North America, it would be like comparing the Yukon's economic system and environment to Mexico.

We are discussing the British empire, It encompasses both. Also the only folks who think the Canadian first nations folks got a fair deal are white Canadians
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Perikuresu
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Postby Perikuresu » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:This is the dumbest thing you can continue to say and believe. It’s not just wrong, it’s offensively wrong. The British Empire committed dozens of genocides, the British Empire invented concentration camps, the British Empire paid bounties to hunt native peoples for sport.


No, the British would have been better than the Americans in their treatment of natives.

Clearly you have never heard of the Stolen Generations, or mass burial sites of Indigenous Canadian children
Last edited by Perikuresu on Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:08 am

Kalivyah wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I got reamed for calling my self from America in Argentina

Who the fuck calls themselves "American" when they live in Argentina


Most of the folks I worked with over the course of my work assignments there.
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Ayytaly
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Postby Ayytaly » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:09 am

Kalivyah wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:I got reamed for calling my self from America in Argentina

Who the fuck calls themselves "American" when they live in Argentina


People who don't buy into the Anglo-enforced North/South America model.
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Kalivyah
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Postby Kalivyah » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:10 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Kalivyah wrote:Who the fuck calls themselves "American" when they live in Argentina


Most of the folks I worked with over the course of my work assignments there.

"Hey, what country are you from?"
- Intentionally calls themselves after the only fucking demonym of a country and the only country in the Americas to be titled "America"
- Gets mad when people don't realize they're *insert other nationality here*

You're not "American" first you're Argentinian :rofl:
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