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What if America lost the War Of Independence

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Nimzonia
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Postby Nimzonia » Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:47 am

Sordhau wrote:If the American Revolution fails then the French Revolution likely doesn't happen, which means the Revolutions of the 1800s also probably won't happen, which means the Revolutions of the 1900s also probably don't happen. The USA is a blight upon the globe, but the American Revolution quite honestly represents a turning point in history that marked the beginning of the end for Monarchism and the rise of Republicanism. In other words more countries have their crowns and the world is a worse place for it.


It would have happened somewhere else within a few decades anyway. The preconditions still existed, and the USA wasn't even the first republic anyway. It's rather lacking in vision to assume that the way something happened in history was the only way it could possibly happen.

As a communist, perhaps you might consider that the American Revolution happened too early in history, and if it had happened a hundred years later with the benefit of an extra century of philosophy and with North America more urbanised and industrialised, it might have been a socialist revolution which didn't leave the world trapped forever in an 18th century frontier notion of democracy beholden to individualism.

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Postby Risottia » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:53 am

Then large swathes of the current US would be Native territory, and a lot of the other stuff would be French.
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Postby Dogmeat » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:21 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:Slavery would have ended hundreds of years earlier in accordance with the policies of the British Empire.

Might want to double-check those numbers there champ.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:31 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:With the British opposed to west of the Appalachian imperialism, the genocide of many native tribes would not have happened/have been delayed instead.

Famously Canada ends at Lake Superior and there are no European settlements past that point.

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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:15 am

Washington and Adams would have hung as traitors.
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Postby Floofybit » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:22 am

America would be a lot better. That's all I have to say. Shouldn't have left
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Postby Ayytaly » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:45 am

Haiti would be America since they were the second nation in America to win independence after the 13 colonies.
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Repreteop
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Postby Repreteop » Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:48 am

Lomacrato wrote:I was wondering? What if America lost the Independence War?

What I think
America would still have its old British Flag untill 1960, when the British Empire collapsed. It would still have British Influence, also the War of 1812 wouldn't have happened, since America would have been a part of Britain. America could have got independence in 1960, It would be July 4th, 1960. British America would have been 62 years old. The pretitle of America would've been called The British Islands Of America. Also, America wouldn't have a president untill 1960, or 1969. By now Richard Nixon would have already started his first term.

Argue with me or not, America is technically still British.


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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:36 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:With the British opposed to west of the Appalachian imperialism, the genocide of many native tribes would not have happened/have been delayed instead.

Famously Canada ends at Lake Superior and there are no European settlements past that point.


I thought Canada extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:38 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:Famously Canada ends at Lake Superior and there are no European settlements past that point.


I thought Canada extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

According to you Vancouver doesn't exist.

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Postby Port Caverton » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:40 am

Floofybit wrote:America would be a lot better. That's all I have to say. Shouldn't have left

Good thing HOI4 is there to fill that gap
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Insaanistan
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Postby Insaanistan » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:40 am

Here are my assumptions (feel free to dispute or correct):
Australia stays Dutch, and a situation not too unlike that between the Boers & the native Africans develops between the Dutch and Aborigines in Australia. New Zealand is also untouched by the British, and instead is possibly left in Māori hands but more likely taken over by the Dutch.

France and Spain don’t expend themselves financially by aiding the US, so the France doesn’t have a Revolution and neither loses its colonies in the Americas… yet. The French & Latin American revolutions were bound to happen, the only thing was when. By not aiding the 13 Colonies (I’m assuming in this hypothetical, the colonists lose at Saratoga and it all goes downhill from there), they’re able to prolong their rule, but not that long. The French were starving and discontent even before the American Revolution. Hispaniola & the rest of Latin America had seen loads of slave revolts. In the Hispanohablante parts, the criollos (whites born in the Americas) were upset about their second class status. In Haiti, the white population, both grands blancs and petits blanc were thoroughly convinced the slaves were incapable of a sophisticated large scale uprising.

There’s a good chance Mexico retains what is now the Southwest and Western US so long as it stays on Britains good side, or fights well enough to keep Britain at bay. Native Americans retain their freedom, at least for a while, as the British had banned settlement west of Appalachia in 1763, so their subjects wouldn’t have spread West so much so rapidly.

You might think there’d be no Liberia, but on the contrary: there very well may have been more of it. While the American Colonization Society dumped slaves in what they would dub “Liberia”, the British in that same century were helping facilitate the movement of Afrolatinos to West Africa, where they often served as intermediaries between the British and the people in Africa who were colonized but not enslaved.

Without French intervention in the Revolution, Anglo-French relations aren’t set ablaze in the Subcontinent. Mysore never gets French help to defeat the British East India Company. The Sultan of Mysore had proven by then his ability to keep the British in check, and perhaps other Indian states, including the Mughals, might have mustered up enough strength to kick the British out of the region.

The Ottomans don’t make so many reforms so quickly and continue on with their war against the Safavids.
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Emotional Support Crocodile
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Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:44 am

When they use computer models to forecast the weather, they run the simulations multiple times with slightly different starting conditions. Sometimes this leads to vastly different predictions, but quite often the forecasts are pretty much the same. I suspect history is pretty much like that too. So maybe the world would not have ended up too dissimilar to what it is now, I suspect independence would have come about anyway at some time.
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Existential Cats
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Postby Existential Cats » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:46 am

Firstly, presuming the patriots lost the Revolutionary War, there's no reason to believe there necessarily would be an "America" distinct from, broadly speaking, the term for the New World. In this alternate timeline, Canada and the thirteen colonies might be incorporated into a singular British North America. Or maybe they would indeed form a separate political entity within the Crown called British America.

Now moving onto the question, I think American economic development would be hampered by the intolerable acts, though with so many bountiful resources and rivers, the region would take off once the settlers were granted more autonomy.

The colonists would continue to push past the Appalachians. There's not much Parliament could do to stop this. Settlers and natives would continue to clash, and everything east of the Mississippi would be definitively American.

Louisiana would remain under Spanish control, as would Florida. I'm gonna press X to doubt that Spain would be able to retain control of their American colonies, American Revolution or not, though maybe in this timeline, it would occur later. Louisiana would be passed along to Mexico, and most of it would remain unsettled by colonists of any European nationality. Maybe we'd see a repeat of the prelude to the Mexican-American War, where there's an influx of Anglo settlers in Mexican territory who join up with dissatisfied Mexicans to rebel against the centralized government. I can't imagine Britain doing some land grab when it already controls so much of North America, so they'd probably try to rein in their colonists.

On the subject, there would be no American cowboys, only Mexican/Spanish vaqueros.

Alaska would remain under Russian control. I don't know about Hawaii, but I can almost guarantee some European power or Japan would have invaded the kingdom eventually. Fuck it, let's just say the Russian-American company takes control of the archipelago.

Britain wouldn't have abolished slavery in 1833 what with the Cotton Belt in their hands. Maybe slavery would have been abolished prior to the 1860's, though I'd imagine Britain compensating slave owners for their lost slaves, and conversely, not a farthing going to the freed slaves.

During the 1860's, we'd probably see the lands become a dominion with a much higher degree of sovereignty, either as, like I stated before, a "British North America" of Canada and America, or a separate entity with some different arbitrary dividing line. The government would operate under the Westminster system. A higher degree of autonomy would pave the way for an economic boom that was waiting to happen. The country would become one of the founding members of the Commonwealth.

Things like the Great War are highly speculative, though Britain would be a force to be reckoned with. If it did happen, I would still imagine an Entente victory.
Last edited by Existential Cats on Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Sordhau
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Postby Sordhau » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:03 am

Nimzonia wrote:It would have happened somewhere else within a few decades anyway. The preconditions still existed, and the USA wasn't even the first republic anyway. It's rather lacking in vision to assume that the way something happened in history was the only way it could possibly happen.


I don't think you understand the ramifications of the American Revolution. This was the first successful large-scale violent rebellion to replace a monarchy with a republic. That sets a precedent that gives people a model to work off of and aspire to. The French were hesitant to support us in large part because the domestic issues in France were also ripe for revolutionary activity and the French weren't sure if it was a good idea to inspire home-grown revolutionaries to do at home what Americans were doing in the Colonies. Many French who ended up participating in the American Revolution, such as LaFayette, used it as an example of what could be accomplished in France and it wasn't hard to point at the American Revolution as an example to those in doubt and say "If the Americans can do it, so can we!" and that same sentiment would be carried over into the Revolutions of 1848 - which were in turn inspired by the success of both the American and French Revolutions - and again in 1905 and 1917 inspired by the same Revolutions that occurred in the previous century, as well as similar revolutionary activity in the 1800s and 1900s. The American Revolution absolutely set a precedent and served as an example of success for those working towards establishing liberal democracies throughout the West and elsewhere from Bolívar to the Young Turks to Xinhai. It's much easier to get people on board with your ideals when you have successful examples to point at and prove it works. The American Revolution nearly crumbled several times quite specifically because there wasn't as much popular support for it as the revolutions which came later. Quite honestly without foreign (but especially French) support we wouldn't have become an independent country at all.

As a communist,


Socialist, not Communist.

perhaps you might consider that the American Revolution happened too early in history, and if it had happened a hundred years later with the benefit of an extra century of philosophy and with North America more urbanised and industrialised, it might have been a socialist revolution which didn't leave the world trapped forever in an 18th century frontier notion of democracy beholden to individualism.


This is assuming that if the American Revolution didn't pop off in 1775 but instead waited until 1875 that it would have been draped in the ideals of Fourier/Owens/Marx/Engels instead of the Founding Fathers. It also assumes that the conditions that forced the American Revolution to occur were either still present a hundred years later or had worsened without the public becoming upset over it. It also assumes that the 13 Colonies wouldn't receive independence/autonomy for some other reason. Among many other things.

Yes, it would've been amazing if America had been founded on a Socialist Revolution instead of a Liberal one but entertaining the thought is rather pointless and not what this thread is really about.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 19, 2022 8:05 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I thought Canada extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

According to you Vancouver doesn't exist.


What do you mean? I never posted a thing about Canada or Vancouver on this thread.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:40 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:According to you Vancouver doesn't exist.


What do you mean? I never posted a thing about Canada or Vancouver on this thread.

Infected Mushroom wrote:With the British opposed to west of the Appalachian imperialism, the genocide of many native tribes would not have happened/have been delayed instead.

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Dayganistan
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Postby Dayganistan » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:14 am

I think we'd end up with Canada controlling what is now the US east of the Mississippi and Mexico controls what is now the US west of the Mississippi. Maybe there would be a culturally Russian nation in the northwest of the continent somewhere, or maybe Britain and Mexico would gang up on Russia and split their North American territory amongst themselves. Canada and Mexico would probably both be major world powers.
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Infected Mushroom
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:14 am

Heloin wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
What do you mean? I never posted a thing about Canada or Vancouver on this thread.

Infected Mushroom wrote:With the British opposed to west of the Appalachian imperialism, the genocide of many native tribes would not have happened/have been delayed instead.


They were opposed to it for the 13 colonies if I recall the textbook correctly. I don't know about in Canada (they've mostly won the lands from France so it's a different story).

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Nova Catania
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Postby Nova Catania » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:32 am

I think about this one a lot. Some already described the domino effect that the lack of a US revolution would have, so I don't have much to add other than, in the big picture, it's a good thing we won.
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Mon Sep 19, 2022 10:57 am

It’s possible that there would have been a conflict during the 19th century which is some weird mixture of the American Revolution and Civil War if the UK tried to abolish slavery and the Southern colonies became upset.
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Theodores Tomfooleries
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Postby Theodores Tomfooleries » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:11 pm

I would have never been born because I refuse to live in a world where the British directly rule over me.
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Myrensis
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Postby Myrensis » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 pm

The world would almost certainly be a better place

Theodores Tomfooleries wrote:I would have never been born because I refuse to live in a world where the British directly rule over me.


That's...not how that works.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:40 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Heloin wrote:


They were opposed to it for the 13 colonies if I recall the textbook correctly. I don't know about in Canada (they've mostly won the lands from France so it's a different story).

Canada didn’t exist. It was all just British North America. Some North American Colonies sided with the British, some choose independence. If you think for a second the British would stop the genocide of natives that they actively encouraged then you are stating you know nothing.

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The Union of Bernie Sanders
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Postby The Union of Bernie Sanders » Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:42 pm

Communist Utopia, Obviously.

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