Elizabeth II / Charles III megathread

[Suriyanakhon]

Not quite how it works. Decolonization requires campaigning - not the electoral or military kind, but the sociopolitical kind. It comes in three phases: the first phase is an identification, understanding, and acknowledgement of the harm and damage caused by the colonial status quo. Compare this to, say, critical race theory in the US which is somewhat anti-colonial in that it addresses the systematic racism in American institutions, said institutions originating from per-independence Colonial America. The second phase come afterwards when it is generally agreed upon by the majority that, yes, colonialism was bad and it's legacy is appalling. Another parallel in the US can be seen here with the removal of honors and monuments to defenders of the Confederacy, the slave trade, Amerindian persecutions, etc. The third phase is the most important one and represents the penultimate act of decolonization. It comes about as a fundamental rejection of society's colonial origins, uprooting the colonial legacy and creating a new society that acknowledges the colonial past as a horrible offense while moving away from it by prioritizing the creation of an environment that is inclusive and accepting; a culture and nation one can actually be proud of. This is a post-colonial society which, unlike it's predecessor, is not merely a 'toned down' version of the original colonial framework but is rather a genuinely revolutionary social, economic, and administrative restructuring of society by all constitute peoples for the benefit of all constitute peoples, and not just whatever the majority demographic is.

The history of the relationship between indigenous people and Euro Americans isn't comparable to that between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants. Irish Protestants have been major proponents for Irish nationalism historically, making up large numbers of the groups that fought for Irish independence up to the 20th century. One of the reasons that Northern Ireland isn't a huge fan of reunification nowadays is precisely because of this kind of reasoning. They worry that their culture and rights will be endangered by southern Irish rule. Which, honestly, isn't an outlandish worry. From what I understand, Lowland culture in Scotland has often been attacked by proponents of Gaelicization there.

[Ifreann]

Not necessarily. A region can be decolonized without removing the settler population by removing the settler culture and institutions.



And? Left-wing nationalism is quite based.

So forceful conversion to Catholicism?

Obviously the people of Northern Ireland must all become Catholic before the island can be united into one Bishopric of Ireland.

[Sordhau]

You just posted an elaborate argument comparing the proposed policy of decolonization, which allegedly requires the destruction of two cultures and the creation of a "synthetic" culture, to CRT. Like if this is all an elaborate shitpost... consider me thoroughly bamboozled, but I did not have "The GOP is right about CRT. And that's a good thing." on my bingo card of NSG hot takes.

You just confused two entirely different posts--one sincere and the other in jest--and derived some rather bizarre conclusions from it.

[Fahran]

Obviously the people of Northern Ireland must all become Catholic before the island can be united into one Bishopric of Ireland.

Eamon de Valera is simply sleeping in a sidh and will rise up to defend the Republic of Ireland in its time of most dire need.

[Fahran]

You just confused two entirely different posts--one sincere and the other in jest--and derived some rather bizarre conclusions from it.

Even your sincere posts arguably advocate for the cultural genocide of the Anglo-Irish and the Ulster Scots.

[Sordhau]

Not quite how it works. Decolonization requires campaigning - not the electoral or military kind, but the sociopolitical kind. It comes in three phases: the first phase is an identification, understanding, and acknowledgement of the harm and damage caused by the colonial status quo. Compare this to, say, critical race theory in the US which is somewhat anti-colonial in that it addresses the systematic racism in American institutions, said institutions originating from per-independence Colonial America. The second phase come afterwards when it is generally agreed upon by the majority that, yes, colonialism was bad and it's legacy is appalling. Another parallel in the US can be seen here with the removal of honors and monuments to defenders of the Confederacy, the slave trade, Amerindian persecutions, etc. The third phase is the most important one and represents the penultimate act of decolonization. It comes about as a fundamental rejection of society's colonial origins, uprooting the colonial legacy and creating a new society that acknowledges the colonial past as a horrible offense while moving away from it by prioritizing the creation of an environment that is inclusive and accepting; a culture and nation one can actually be proud of. This is a post-colonial society which, unlike it's predecessor, is not merely a 'toned down' version of the original colonial framework but is rather a genuinely revolutionary social, economic, and administrative restructuring of society by all constitute peoples for the benefit of all constitute peoples, and not just whatever the majority demographic is.

The history of the relationship between indigenous people and Euro Americans isn't comparable to that between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants. Irish Protestants, or Anglo-Irish people more generally have been major proponents for Irish nationalism historically, making up large numbers of the groups that fought for Irish independence up to the 20th century. One of the reasons that Northern Ireland isn't a huge fan of reunification nowadays is precisely because of this kind of reasoning. They worry that their culture and rights will be endangered by southern Irish rule. Which, honestly, isn't an outlandish worry. From what I understand, Lowland culture in Scotland has often been attacked by proponents of Gaelicization there.

Except it really is comparable. It's almost identical to the white American culture that predominates the USA, with the exception of promoting native nationalism. Still the origins of the settler culture are virtually identical, as are the very real concerns of cultural erasure by the ruling demographic. The only real difference is that the settler culture in America is dominate whereas the settler culture in Ireland is the minority, making it more relatable to Apartheid South Africa or Rhodesia.

[Sordhau]

You just confused two entirely different posts--one sincere and the other in jest--and derived some rather bizarre conclusions from it.

Even your sincere posts arguably advocate for the cultural genocide of the Anglo-Irish and the Ulster Scots.

This would be the "bizarre conclusions" I was talking about.

[Suriyanakhon]

You just confused two entirely different posts--one sincere and the other in jest--and derived some rather bizarre conclusions from it.

Even your sincere posts arguably advocate for the cultural genocide of the Anglo-Irish and the Ulster Scots.

It's pretty impressive when someone's made O'Duffy seem like a reasonable chap who just had some concerns about the decline of Gaelic.

[Ethel mermania]

Y'all are going to make me start screaming God Save the King in Scots soon with this level of cringe.

We twa hae run about the braes
And pu'd the gowans fine
But we've wander'd mony a weary fit
Sin days of auld lang syne
And we twa hae paidl'd I' the burn
Frae morning sun 'til dine
But seas between us braid hae roar'd
Sin days of auld lang syne
For auld lang syne, my dear
For auld lang syne
We'll tak a cup o' kindness yet
For days of auld lang syne

Happy new year!

[Sordhau]

Even your sincere posts arguably advocate for the cultural genocide of the Anglo-Irish and the Ulster Scots.

It's pretty impressive when someone's made O'Duffy seem like a reasonable chap who just had some concerns about the decline of Gaelic.

Something is clearly being lost in translation.

[Ifreann]

I think Sordhau calling it "decolonisation" is giving people the wrong idea, but the only way there's ever going to be a united Ireland is if the people of the North come around to wanting to be Irish and to separate from the UK, which will obviously only happen if the people of the Republic can reshape the idea of Irishness to accommodate Protestants with very close ties to the UK. Not taking away the culture of either community, but adapting the cultures of both to fit together so that we can have one, diverse, multicultural, Irish community.





And then we join forces with Scotland and march south, and with the aid of the auld ally France and our cousins of Wales, finally rid the world of the hated English, mwahahaha!

[Celritannia]

I think Sordhau calling it "decolonisation" is giving people the wrong idea, but the only way there's ever going to be a united Ireland is if the people of the North come around to wanting to be Irish and to separate from the UK, which will obviously only happen if the people of the Republic can reshape the idea of Irishness to accommodate Protestants with very close ties to the UK. Not taking away the culture of either community, but adapting the cultures of both to fit together so that we can have one, diverse, multicultural, Irish community.





And then we join forces with Scotland and march south, and with the aid of the auld ally France and our cousins of Wales, finally rid the world of the hated English, mwahahaha!

Only the south of England.
The North of England is still very Celtic at heart and in blood.

[Ethel mermania]

I think Sordhau calling it "decolonisation" is giving people the wrong idea, but the only way there's ever going to be a united Ireland is if the people of the North come around to wanting to be Irish and to separate from the UK, which will obviously only happen if the people of the Republic can reshape the idea of Irishness to accommodate Protestants with very close ties to the UK. Not taking away the culture of either community, but adapting the cultures of both to fit together so that we can have one, diverse, multicultural, Irish community.





And then we join forces with Scotland and march south, and with the aid of the auld ally France and our cousins of Wales, finally rid the world of the hated English, mwahahaha!

I dont think what she means is what you just posted.

That said your comment... makes a lot of sense to me. I am not terribly fond of London either.

[Sordhau]

I think Sordhau calling it "decolonisation" is giving people the wrong idea, but the only way there's ever going to be a united Ireland is if the people of the North come around to wanting to be Irish and to separate from the UK, which will obviously only happen if the people of the Republic can reshape the idea of Irishness to accommodate Protestants with very close ties to the UK. Not taking away the culture of either community, but adapting the cultures of both to fit together so that we can have one, diverse, multicultural, Irish community.

This is basically what I'm advocating while also pointing out that logically the status quo of multiculturalism will eventually give way to a melting pot as the two cultures blend to become a 'New Irish' culture.

And then we join forces with Scotland and march south, and with the aid of the auld ally France and our cousins of Wales, finally rid the world of the hated English, mwahahaha!

Based as this is, let's be honest: the only time the French successfully crossed the Channel was with Norman help.

[Ethel mermania]

I think Sordhau calling it "decolonisation" is giving people the wrong idea, but the only way there's ever going to be a united Ireland is if the people of the North come around to wanting to be Irish and to separate from the UK, which will obviously only happen if the people of the Republic can reshape the idea of Irishness to accommodate Protestants with very close ties to the UK. Not taking away the culture of either community, but adapting the cultures of both to fit together so that we can have one, diverse, multicultural, Irish community.

This is basically what I'm advocating while also pointing out that logically the status quo of multiculturalism will eventually give way to a melting pot as the two cultures blend to become a 'New Irish' culture.

And then we join forces with Scotland and march south, and with the aid of the auld ally France and our cousins of Wales, finally rid the world of the hated English, mwahahaha!

Based as this is, let's be honest: the only time the French successfully crossed the Channel was with Norman help.

I sit corrected.

[Fahran]

This would be the "bizarre conclusions" I was talking about.

Not really.

You've written on several occasions how decolonization requires not only the abolition of extant social hierarchies but the erasure of the colonial settler culture and the uprooting of all associated institutions. This is a roundabout way of advocating cultural genocide since culture and institutions are often integral to the identity of a people. Things like English, Protestantism, perspectives and paradigms, history, etc.

You walked that back a little bit by talking about how a new decolonized society would need to accommodate all constituent peoples, but, given some of the takes you've had in the past, I regard that idea with more than a little suspicion. I'm also not certain we should call a group of people who have lived in Ireland for around a thousand years, who are often characterized as "more Irish than the Irish", and who fought and died for Irish independence "settlers" or "colonizers." Like modern Irish culture wouldn't exist without their contributions.

Should we remove Norman culture and institutions from England, Scotland, and Wales next? What about Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Irish culture and institutions?

[Fahran]

Only the south of England.
The North of England is still very Celtic at heart and in blood.

Yr Hen Ogledd intensifies.

[Celritannia]

Only the south of England.
The North of England is still very Celtic at heart and in blood.

Yr Hen Ogledd intensifies.

[Sordhau]

You've written on several occasions how decolonization requires not only the abolition of extant social hierarchies but the erasure of the colonial settler culture and the uprooting of all associated institutions. This is a roundabout way of advocating cultural genocide since culture and institutions are often integral to the identity of a people. Things like English, Protestantism, perspectives and paradigms, history, etc.

This is pure nonsense lmao. You're basically saying that if we abolished the US Federal Government it would destroy White American culture, which is a mind-boggling take of astronomical proportions.

You walked that back a little bit by talking about how a new decolonized society would need to accommodate all constituent peoples, but, given some of the takes you've had in the past, I regard that idea with more than a little suspicion.

My ideals are constantly evolving; particularly in relation to concepts that require further refining to avoid falling into reaction or hypocrisy. Do people not change their minds where you're from?

I'm also not certain we should call a group of people who have lived in Ireland for around a thousand years,

Irrelevant.

who are often characterized as "more Irish than the Irish",

A crass, ignorant, and disrespectful put down to an entire nation of people.

and who fought and died for Irish independence

Irrelevant.

"settlers" or "colonizers."

Which I didn't do. Ulster Scots are the descendants of settlers and colonizers, but they themselves are not. They still live in a fundamentally settler culture.

Like modern Irish culture wouldn't exist without their contributions.

Which is nice and all but it doesn't change the fact that their own ancestors were largely responsible for much of traditional Irish culture's erasure.

Should we remove Norman culture and institutions from England, Scotland, and Wales next? What about Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Irish culture and institutions?

Literally not possible. For one thing the Irish were never a settler culture in Great Britain, and the others have syncretized with the local cultures. While they were settler cultures at one time they no longer exist as such anymore. This is not the same for Ulster Scot/Northern Irish/Anglo-Irish culture, a settler culture which is still very much alive and distinct from 'traditional' (or whatever you prefer to call it) Irish culture.

[Salus Maior]

Except it really is comparable. It's almost identical to the white American culture that predominates the USA, with the exception of promoting native nationalism. Still the origins of the settler culture are virtually identical, as are the very real concerns of cultural erasure by the ruling demographic. The only real difference is that the settler culture in America is dominate whereas the settler culture in Ireland is the minority, making it more relatable to Apartheid South Africa or Rhodesia.

Those that identify as British are the majority in Northern Ireland, so no that's not true.

[Sordhau]

Except it really is comparable. It's almost identical to the white American culture that predominates the USA, with the exception of promoting native nationalism. Still the origins of the settler culture are virtually identical, as are the very real concerns of cultural erasure by the ruling demographic. The only real difference is that the settler culture in America is dominate whereas the settler culture in Ireland is the minority, making it more relatable to Apartheid South Africa or Rhodesia.

Those that identify as British are the majority in Northern Ireland, so no that's not true.

Note that I said Ireland, and not Northern Ireland.

[Perikuresu]

This is a Nationalist talking point.

And? Left-wing nationalism is quite based.

Ik this is probs a shit post but

"*insert thing here* is bad unless it's my brand of *insert thing here*"

[Salus Maior]

Those that identify as British are the majority in Northern Ireland, so no that's not true.

Note that I said Ireland, and not Northern Ireland.

Well, what the Republic of Ireland wants is irrelevant to what Northern Ireland wants for itself.

[Sordhau]

And? Left-wing nationalism is quite based.

Ik this is probs a shit post but

"*insert thing here* is bad unless it's my brand of *insert thing here*"

It's not a shitpost. Left-wing nationalism is founded specifically on anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism (e.g. Kurdish Nationalism) as opposed to Right-wing nationalism which is focused on revanchism, irredentism, and imperialism (e.g. Fascism).

Nationalism comes in different forms my dude.

Note that I said Ireland, and not Northern Ireland.

Well, what the Republic of Ireland wants is irrelevant to what Northern Ireland wants for itself.

I am in fact referring to the island which has for centuries been referred to by the name "Ireland" and not any political entity whose existence can be traced back to the last hundred years or so.

[Fahran]

This is pure nonsense lmao. You're basically saying that if we abolished the US Federal Government it would destroy White American culture, which is a mind-boggling take of astronomical proportions.

The US Federal Government is one institution among many. Again, you're proposing the destruction of the culture of the "settler colonial" population and all associated institutions. While a decent number of people conflate the term "institution" with the term "political organ", that's not wholly accurate. Political organs, such as the US Federal Government, are but a single type of institutions. Social conventions, social mores, ways of thinking, patterns of subsistence behavior, widespread epistemological paradigms, religious traditions, etc. all constitute institutions. So, yes, even if you're not aware of it, the phrases you've employed do propose cultural genocide.

My ideals are constantly evolving; particularly in relation to concepts that require further refining to avoid falling into reaction or hypocrisy. Do people not change their minds where you're from?

They do, yes. Not usually in the span of thirty minutes though.

Irrelevant.

My sister in Torah, it's literally an argument you made at the opening of this discussion.

A crass, ignorant, and disrespectful put down to an entire nation of people.

More of a commentary on how complete their assimilation into and contribution to the emerging early modern Irish culture was.

Irrelevant.

Not really.

Which I didn't do. Ulster Scots are the descendants of settlers and colonizers, but they themselves are not. They still live in a fundamentally settler culture.

Almost every culture is a settler culture by that definition. The freakin' Lakota and Sami are settler cultures. The Bantu are a settler culture. The Pashtuns are a settler culture. The Gaelic-speaking Irish are a settler culture. What does the term even mean once it begins to describe almost every single culture in existence?

Which is nice and all but it doesn't change the fact that their own ancestors were largely responsible for much of traditional Irish culture's erasure.

And how do you propose we solve that problem without engaging in genocide and probably erasing even more traditional Irish culture in the process? Y'know... since the Hiberno-Normans and Anglo-Irish have been fairly integral to the process of creating a modern Irish culture.

Literally not possible. For one thing the Irish were never a settler culture in Great Britain,

Yes, they were. How do you think Gaelic replaced the previously spoken Brythonic languages of Scotland? How do you think Romano-British clergymen wound up in Ireland? It was through a process of conquest, settlement, and enslavement. Which wasn't really out of pocket in that time period. The Danes and Norwegians did fairly similar things.

and the others have syncretized with the local cultures. While they were settler cultures at one time they no longer exist as such anymore. This is not the same for Ulster Scot/Northern Irish/Anglo-Irish culture, a settler culture which is still very much alive and distinct from 'traditional' (or whatever you prefer to call it) Irish culture.

What even is "traditional Irish culture" in your view? And why do you believe the Irish want it at present?

Gonna take a break from the topic until after Elizabeth II has been buried since I feel like we're getting a little off-topic. At that point, maybe we can discuss the succession and the political consequences at that time. Um, so until then?