The Problem with Andrew Tate (and Incel Radicalization)

[Alcala-Cordel]

If you're a man, the social expectation a lot of men and women, since I'm not assuming your sexual orientation here, might have is that you'll make the first move in initiating a romantic relationship. Mind you, I understand and appreciate the arguments folks make about that being antiquated and unfair, but surveys routinely show that most women are unwilling to ask men out. I doubt there's anything particularly wrong with you. A lot of the incels who have gained notoriety have been average-looking or even slightly above average-looking. They just had a chip on their shoulders about not having had a relationship by twenty and serious issues with socialization and confidence. A LOT of men and WOMEN are in similar situations. And it's not a hopeless situation. Heck, one of my sister's former coworkers met her boyfriend when he was twenty six. Guy had never dated. They're married now.

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

[Noob Topia]

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

Yea gotta agree that person is a bit dumb but you know what I also think? That the people that are writing paragraphs on this needs to fucking go outside this is a game where you create and run a fake country

[GuessTheAltAccount]

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

If you're going to respond at all, you might as well answer the questions.

[Haganham]

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

If you're going to respond at all, you might as well answer the questions.

The question about your made up scenario?

[Noob Topia]

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

If you're going to respond at all, you might as well answer the questions.

Are you fucking mentally challenged?

[New Visayan Islands]

If you're going to respond at all, you might as well answer the questions.

Are you fucking mentally challenged?

*** Warning issued for flamebait. ***

[Ors Might]

If you're a man, the social expectation a lot of men and women, since I'm not assuming your sexual orientation here, might have is that you'll make the first move in initiating a romantic relationship. Mind you, I understand and appreciate the arguments folks make about that being antiquated and unfair, but surveys routinely show that most women are unwilling to ask men out. I doubt there's anything particularly wrong with you. A lot of the incels who have gained notoriety have been average-looking or even slightly above average-looking. They just had a chip on their shoulders about not having had a relationship by twenty and serious issues with socialization and confidence. A LOT of men and WOMEN are in similar situations. And it's not a hopeless situation. Heck, one of my sister's former coworkers met her boyfriend when he was twenty six. Guy had never dated. They're married now.

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

My man, it ain't that deep. Sometimes people just click well together and have a relationship. People in healthy relationships aren't constantly focused on the sexual aspect of it.

[Joet]

yo mama

[Existential Cats]

If you're a man, the social expectation a lot of men and women, since I'm not assuming your sexual orientation here, might have is that you'll make the first move in initiating a romantic relationship. Mind you, I understand and appreciate the arguments folks make about that being antiquated and unfair, but surveys routinely show that most women are unwilling to ask men out. I doubt there's anything particularly wrong with you. A lot of the incels who have gained notoriety have been average-looking or even slightly above average-looking. They just had a chip on their shoulders about not having had a relationship by twenty and serious issues with socialization and confidence. A LOT of men and WOMEN are in similar situations. And it's not a hopeless situation. Heck, one of my sister's former coworkers met her boyfriend when he was twenty six. Guy had never dated. They're married now.

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

Surprisingly, most women will date a man without sexual experience.

It's guys who care about virginity more than girls--so many cultures prioritize the male marrying a "pure, untouched" female partner, and conversely, it's males who throw the "virgin" insult around to denigrate males they perceive as socially awkward or sexually unattractive.

[Ostroeuropa]

So did he lie to her about his amount of sexual experience?

If so, how does she feel about a relationship built on a lie?

If not, how did he know she'd be willing to date him despite a lack of it, compared to all the other guys out there? For that matter, how does he know she loves him even now, given the commonality of the use of "virgin" as an insult?

Surprisingly, most women will date a man without sexual experience.

It's guys who care about virginity more than girls--so many cultures prioritize the male marrying a "pure, untouched" female partner, and conversely, it's males who throw the "virgin" insult around to denigrate males they perceive as socially awkward or sexually unattractive.

What are your sources for this?

[Saiwania]

Surprisingly, most women will date a man without sexual experience.

It's guys who care about virginity more than girls--so many cultures prioritize the male marrying a "pure, untouched" female partner, and conversely, it's males who throw the "virgin" insult around to denigrate males they perceive as socially awkward or sexually unattractive.

It's just the old sexist double standard still at work, which is for women to be expected to be virginal or pretend to, and for men to be expected to have lots of sexual experience and previous such conquests to boast of, when it is more likely for most people to either all have little to no sexual experience or for most people to be sexually active (depending on what stage of life they're at).

All else being equal, the older someone is; the more likely they'll have been with someone else before if its not you.

My recommendation: break any lust addictions if you have any, doing that on its own- can turn so many other things around. Like fixing your sleep schedule does. If you're always well rested, you can count on never being tired (until its late). You might think you're squeezing out more time to live in skipping sleep, but it doesn't help; like drinking coffee/caffeine doesn't either. The real solution: invest in getting good sleep, like you do in everything else you want to work towards or think is worthwhile.

[Existential Cats]

Surprisingly, most women will date a man without sexual experience.

It's guys who care about virginity more than girls--so many cultures prioritize the male marrying a "pure, untouched" female partner, and conversely, it's males who throw the "virgin" insult around to denigrate males they perceive as socially awkward or sexually unattractive.

What are your sources for this?

Sources for what exactly?

It's pretty well established that many cultures esteem female virginity, particularly the Abrahamic religions. Like this cute little verse, explained with Lego figures. And sure, the Abrahamic religions would prefer that no one be promiscuous, though men aren't held to the standard of being stoned.

I also know this anecdotally from several of my Middle Eastern friends who tell me, yes, many men expect their wives to be pure virgins no matter how promiscuous they were in the past. Hell, Arab women literally pay money to have their "virginity restored."

Norms are changing of course, and in the West, it's typically only the conservatives who are concerned with girls being too promiscuous, but on the other hand, it's not like boys everywhere are becoming shamed for being virgins or not becoming sexually revolutionized or whatever, not to the degree women have historically faced.

As for virginity being a male insult, I haven't encountered any women throwing it around as an insult, though I'm sure some of them exist. Especially since that word exists as a pejorative in typically male majority spaces like video game chats. I'm thinking of when Elliot Rodger complained in his manifesto about how new users of World of Warcraft started using the term as an insult. Some guys just love being competitive, so they'll hyperbolize or downright lie about their sexual experience and conversely characterize their competitors as never having even seen a vulva or whatever. Comparatively fewer girls care: society's certainly never cared to the extent of stoning a husband for not being a virgin.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Did you really make up a whole set of circumstances about people you know nothing about just to get angry over

If you're going to respond at all, you might as well answer the questions.

Why should I? There's no substance to those questions.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

What are your sources for this?

Sources for what exactly?

It's pretty well established that many cultures esteem female virginity, particularly the Abrahamic religions. Like this cute little verse, explained with Lego figures. And sure, the Abrahamic religions would prefer that no one be promiscuous, though men aren't held to the standard of being stoned.

I also know this anecdotally from several of my Middle Eastern friends who tell me, yes, many men expect their wives to be pure virgins no matter how promiscuous they were in the past. Hell, Arab women literally pay money to have their "virginity restored."

Norms are changing of course, and in the West, it's typically only the conservatives who are concerned with girls being too promiscuous, but on the other hand, it's not like boys everywhere are becoming shamed for being virgins or not becoming sexually revolutionized or whatever, not to the degree women have historically faced.

As for virginity being a male insult, I haven't encountered any women throwing it around as an insult, though I'm sure some of them exist. Especially since that word exists as a pejorative in typically male majority spaces like video game chats. I'm thinking of when Elliot Rodger complained in his manifesto about how new users of World of Warcraft started using the term as an insult. Some guys just love being competitive, so they'll hyperbolize or downright lie about their sexual experience and conversely characterize their competitors as never having even seen a vulva or whatever. Comparatively fewer girls care: society's certainly never cared to the extent of stoning a husband for not being a virgin.

Nah. They just keep with the virgin-bashing rhetoric until folks like Elliot Rodger feel unloved to the point where "if you do this, you'll get yourself killed" is less of a deterrent. Luckily for me, I didn't prioritize the approval of others over being right to the extent of getting anywhere close to that point. Just as I didn't prioritize the approval of others to the point of conforming to popular opinion here or elsewhere. But people will always vary amongst each other in how much they crave the approval of others, let alone the higher emotional stakes in the approval of the opposite sex.

Why is stating it directly the only thing that counts? What about how seldom refuted it is? We hear "you say nerdy like it's a bad thing" and "you say fat like it's a bad thing" all the time. (Unless the former's about Maddox or the latter's about Trump.) What does it suggest about virginity that "you say virgin like it's a bad thing" isn't as popular a response?

[Ifreann]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

[Rusozak]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

The final evolution of "She was asking to be raped with what she was wearing."

[Ostroeuropa]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

Hey Ifreann, why do black people riot out of interest?

As for virginity being a male insult, I haven't encountered any women throwing it around as an insult, though I'm sure some of them exist. Especially since that word exists as a pejorative in typically male majority spaces like video game chats. I'm thinking of when Elliot Rodger complained in his manifesto about how new users of World of Warcraft started using the term as an insult. Some guys just love being competitive, so they'll hyperbolize or downright lie about their sexual experience and conversely characterize their competitors as never having even seen a vulva or whatever. Comparatively fewer girls care: society's certainly never cared to the extent of stoning a husband for not being a virgin.

So no source then. Gotcha.

[Juristonia]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

Yeah, I'd say the thread went off the rails a few pages ago, but this train was wobbly from the get go.
Which isn't surprising, considering the usual suspects in it.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

Don't go twisting my words. Of course one shouldn't murder, if only because it's a heinous thing to do. But plenty of people otherwise lacking in a conscience can still be incentivized not to by extrinsic motives. That's part of the point of having laws. But laws are only one factor of many. Just as making clear someone has something to lose; and I don't even mean necessarily a sex life, just the dignity of not being talked to as if one were lesser just for being a virgin; and the role that plays in self-worth and the resulting self-preservation instinct (though granted the ideal option is to stop caring what others think) could also be one factor out of many.

When women and girls die of anorexia, males get blamed for failing to convince them they don't need to be thin to be considered attractive. If one sex's failure to convince the other of something is treated as fair game in one such context, why not another?

[Ifreann]

Wonder what's going on in the Tate thread.

"It's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people"

Mother of God

Don't go twisting my words. Of course one shouldn't murder, if only because it's a heinous thing to do. But plenty of people otherwise lacking in a conscience can still be incentivized not to by extrinsic motives. That's part of the point of having laws. But laws are only one factor of many. Just as making clear someone has something to lose; and I don't even mean necessarily a sex life, just the dignity of not being talked to as if one were lesser just for being a virgin; and the role that plays in self-worth and the resulting self-preservation instinct (though granted the ideal option is to stop caring what others think) could also be one factor out of many.

When women and girls die of anorexia, males get blamed for failing to convince them they don't need to be thin to be considered attractive. If one sex's failure to convince the other of something is treated as fair game in one such context, why not another?

"Don't go twisting my words. All I'm saying is that it's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people because it was their responsibility to stop him from wanting to kill people."

[GuessTheAltAccount]

Don't go twisting my words. Of course one shouldn't murder, if only because it's a heinous thing to do. But plenty of people otherwise lacking in a conscience can still be incentivized not to by extrinsic motives. That's part of the point of having laws. But laws are only one factor of many. Just as making clear someone has something to lose; and I don't even mean necessarily a sex life, just the dignity of not being talked to as if one were lesser just for being a virgin; and the role that plays in self-worth and the resulting self-preservation instinct (though granted the ideal option is to stop caring what others think) could also be one factor out of many.

When women and girls die of anorexia, males get blamed for failing to convince them they don't need to be thin to be considered attractive. If one sex's failure to convince the other of something is treated as fair game in one such context, why not another?

"Don't go twisting my words. All I'm saying is that it's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people because it was their responsibility to stop him from wanting to kill people."

It's everyone's responsibility. And some societies obviously do a better job of this sort of thing than others.

The first person of us 3 to single out one sex for their role in this was Existential Cats, who claimed it was mostly just men using it as an insult (how would you even prove that?) as if the fact that they don't say "you say it like it's a bad thing" like they do for certain other insults meant nothing. So when, in response, I emphasize women have a share of the blame for creating the impression that they don't respect virgin males any more than they love them, you act like I did it out of nowhere.

So yeah, you are twisting my words no matter how much you deny it.

You also conveniently ignored my anorexia analogy.

[Ifreann]

"Don't go twisting my words. All I'm saying is that it's women's fault that Elliot Rodger killed people because it was their responsibility to stop him from wanting to kill people."

It's everyone's responsibility. And some societies obviously do a better job of this sort of thing than others.

The first person of us 3 to single out one sex for their role in this was Existential Cats, who claimed it was mostly just men using it as an insult (how would you even prove that?) as if the fact that they don't say "you say it like it's a bad thing" like they do for certain other insults meant nothing. So when, in response, I emphasize women have a share of the blame for creating the impression that they don't respect virgin males any more than they love them, you act like I did it out of nowhere.

So yeah, you are twisting my words no matter how much you deny it.

I'm just repeating what you're saying in a way that highlights how you think women are to blame for being targeted by a misogynist murderer.

You also conveniently ignored my anorexia analogy.

Yes, it's very convenient for you that I'm not digging into that insane belief you hold in favour of focusing on the other insane belief.

[GuessTheAltAccount]

And yet, some societies have more murderers than others. Obviously the murderer deserving the lion's share of the blame doesn't mean society as a whole doesn't deserve a slice of it. The only question is on the specifics.

Existential Cats singled out men in particular for the very thing pointed out. I made the case for why they aren't the only ones involved, and how people only tangentially related to a particular set of deaths get similarly assigned a slice of the blame. If you want to twist my words that's your business, not mine.

[Ayytaly]

Sexual frustration leads to terrorism. Shaming people for their lack of "experience" is sure as hell a trigger for that. The status quo creates its own enemy and yet it cynically blames those who don't partake in it.

[Chan Island]

Sexual frustration leads to terrorism. Shaming people for their lack of "experience" is sure as hell a trigger for that. The status quo creates its own enemy and yet it cynically blames those who don't partake in it.

Majorities of people in the developed world report being lonely on a regular basis nowadays. Loneliness has a comparable effect on life expectancy to cigarettes.

As I've said previously on this thread, I don't know what the actual solution is, but it's clear that the pendulum has swung way, way too far towards isolation. We need some kind of society wide socialisation or this shit's going to get worse.