The Problem with Andrew Tate (and Incel Radicalization)

[Techocracy101010]

If they actually did approach girls, they'd have a better understanding of how relationships work, and they'd realize appearance isn't always the be-all-end-all of relationships.

Physical appearance in general, is secondary to social skills. You also usually want to be of like language and culture to someone else as a baseline to start from. If you're a smooth enough talker, even being ugly probably isn't going to stop you from getting towards what you want from or with other people. However, it is nonsense that the men should be expected to always have to be the ones to first approach or initiate.

If you're too introverted or risk adverse, it is often better from their perspective to not bother trying at all and just become happy with isolation to the most extent possible. Especially when approaching can be an unacceptably risky gamble where you might get sexual harassment accusations and more.

Too many people out there are now too high strung, on edge, or assume the worst in others. There is little to no reason to particularly even like the company of most other people out there by default that you come across, if that is just not your element and you disapprove of what you see more often than find anything good about real life.

Given my life experiences approaching was scary due to fed up shit that happened to me years ago. I can still say the social hesitancy sticks. Once you hammer a nail into a board you can pull it out but the hole remains

[Ayytaly]

Physical appearance in general, is secondary to social skills. You also usually want to be of like language and culture to someone else as a baseline to start from. If you're a smooth enough talker, even being ugly probably isn't going to stop you from getting towards what you want from or with other people. However, it is nonsense that the men should be expected to always have to be the ones to first approach or initiate.

If you're too introverted or risk adverse, it is often better from their perspective to not bother trying at all and just become happy with isolation to the most extent possible. Especially when approaching can be an unacceptably risky gamble where you might get sexual harassment accusations and more.

Too many people out there are now too high strung, on edge, or assume the worst in others. There is little to no reason to particularly even like the company of most other people out there by default that you come across, if that is just not your element and you disapprove of what you see more often than find anything good about real life.

Given my life experiences approaching was scary due to fed up shit that happened to me years ago. I can still say the social hesitancy sticks. Once you hammer a nail into a board you can pull it out but the hole remains

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

[Fahran]

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

What does this even mean? What makes a good mother?

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

Given my life experiences approaching was scary due to fed up shit that happened to me years ago. I can still say the social hesitancy sticks. Once you hammer a nail into a board you can pull it out but the hole remains

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

Oh, that's cool, someone talks about real life emotional trauma and you take that and turn it into "women are bad because they are liberal".

[The Holy Therns]

Given my life experiences approaching was scary due to fed up shit that happened to me years ago. I can still say the social hesitancy sticks. Once you hammer a nail into a board you can pull it out but the hole remains

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

That's hardly a thing a desirable person would say.

[Ikwaneland]

Not the best topic to start my NationStates forum career on...

I think it's important that society, including the incels themselves, should delineate what exactly an incel is. As of now the consensus amongst the majority of society seems that inceldom is purely and only a woman-hating movement, while a smaller section (primarily many of the incels themselves as well as the Tatists) see it as purely the inability to get laid. I feel that oddly enough both sides have a point: self-designed incels often tend to have sexist opinions (sometimes to a dangerous level), but it does seem that it's starting to reach a point that in the English-speaking world any guy that can't have sex is therefore an incel and therefore holds those sexist opinions.

It would be better for society if we on the one hand targetted this new sexist movement more thoroughly, but on the other hand also lessen our odd societal status obsession around sex that seemed to have appeared at the end of the sixties. Most humans are always going to desire sexual activity to a certain extent, but focusing the entirety of our societies on the 'acquisition' of it is only going to make the negative effects from not having that worse both for the individual and the collective.

If you're too introverted or risk adverse, it is often better from their perspective to not bother trying at all and just become happy with isolation to the most extent possible. Especially when approaching can be an unacceptably risky gamble where you might get sexual harassment accusations and more.

Too many people out there are now too high strung, on edge, or assume the worst in others. There is little to no reason to particularly even like the company of most other people out there by default that you come across, if that is just not your element and you disapprove of what you see more often than find anything good about real life.

I personally think that's not entirely true, there are a fair amount of people in at least the Netherlands that still manage to get into relationships and date even if they're immensely insecure. That said, I do feel that there's a difference between the European 'dating market' and that of the Anglo-Saxon world, especially in how vile the latter can be.

[Imperial Samiller]

Yikes. I dont really throw around labels like "racist" or "misogynistic" lightly, but this Andrew Tate character seems pretty misogynistic.

[Ayytaly]

Not the best topic to start my NationStates forum career on...

I think it's important that society, including the incels themselves, should delineate what exactly an incel is. As of now the consensus amongst the majority of society seems that inceldom is purely and only a woman-hating movement, while a smaller section (primarily many of the incels themselves as well as the Tatists) see it as purely the inability to get laid. I feel that oddly enough both sides have a point: self-designed incels often tend to have sexist opinions (sometimes to a dangerous level), but it does seem that it's starting to reach a point that in the English-speaking world any guy that can't have sex is therefore an incel and therefore holds those sexist opinions.

It would be better for society if we on the one hand targetted this new sexist movement more thoroughly, but on the other hand also lessen our odd societal status obsession around sex that seemed to have appeared at the end of the sixties. Most humans are always going to desire sexual activity to a certain extent, but focusing the entirety of our societies on the 'acquisition' of it is only going to make the negative effects from not having that worse both for the individual and the collective.

If you're too introverted or risk adverse, it is often better from their perspective to not bother trying at all and just become happy with isolation to the most extent possible. Especially when approaching can be an unacceptably risky gamble where you might get sexual harassment accusations and more.

Too many people out there are now too high strung, on edge, or assume the worst in others. There is little to no reason to particularly even like the company of most other people out there by default that you come across, if that is just not your element and you disapprove of what you see more often than find anything good about real life.

I personally think that's not entirely true, there are a fair amount of people in at least the Netherlands that still manage to get into relationships and date even if they're immensely insecure. That said, I do feel that there's a difference between the European 'dating market' and that of the Anglo-Saxon world, especially in how vile the latter can be.

Bingo. Culture-wise the Anglo-American attitude and ignorance is the root of this problem.

[Techocracy101010]

Given my life experiences approaching was scary due to fed up shit that happened to me years ago. I can still say the social hesitancy sticks. Once you hammer a nail into a board you can pull it out but the hole remains

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

not much to do with liberal women and mire to do with hazing bullying and group pressure tactics. If anything im more upset by self proclaimed liberal woman who talk about values 24/7 and do nothing to implement them or the values are nowhere in their lives.

[Dronth]

Might it be that both woke and incel have radicalised, and both need to take it back a notch or three?

No.

You ignored the rest of my post?

Curious, when your sig says "no war but class war".

There was a chance to agree with a like mind, yet it was lost on perceived virtue-signaling over my opening line?

[Dronth]

I understand why some people vote for Trump, why some people try to spread the word of God, and why some people want to kill their children in the name of honour. But if you tell me that the solution is "we should sympathise with them and seek to meet them halfway" my response to that nonsense is going to be unfit to reproduce in print.

I didn´t suggest anything about meeting them halfway.
I suggested reducing their economic anxiety, among other things.

The freedom of association must necessarily include the freedom not to associate with anyone with whom people do not wish to be associated. The natural and inevitable consequence of this is that nobody has the right to have other people associated with them, and therefore those with less than entirely desirable personalities might find themselves a bit lonely. So what? That's the price of living in a free society. And if some people are made upset by that, well, too bad for them.

But loneliness can be induced by economic factors, or by discriminatory policies, or by peer pressure to exclude someone... Please broaden your scope of potential causality.

[Techocracy101010]

I understand why some people vote for Trump, why some people try to spread the word of God, and why some people want to kill their children in the name of honour. But if you tell me that the solution is "we should sympathise with them and seek to meet them halfway" my response to that nonsense is going to be unfit to reproduce in print.

I didn´t suggest anything about meeting them halfway.
I suggested reducing their economic anxiety, among other things.

The freedom of association must necessarily include the freedom not to associate with anyone with whom people do not wish to be associated. The natural and inevitable consequence of this is that nobody has the right to have other people associated with them, and therefore those with less than entirely desirable personalities might find themselves a bit lonely. So what? That's the price of living in a free society. And if some people are made upset by that, well, too bad for them.

But loneliness can be induced by economic factors, or by discriminatory policies, or by peer pressure to exclude someone... Please broaden your scope of potential causality.

can agree on needing to work isolating one . Throw in race based bullying in years plus being bullied for race and than accused of cheating because you can’t be that bright … Yeah

[Ethikia]

I personally think that's not entirely true, there are a fair amount of people in at least the Netherlands that still manage to get into relationships and date even if they're immensely insecure. That said, I do feel that there's a difference between the European 'dating market' and that of the Anglo-Saxon world, especially in how vile the latter can be.

The fact that the US "dating market" is so fixated with age and experience like it's a videogame with mathmaking tiers contributes a lot to the problem. If you can have your first relationships at 25 with a 20 yo partner, there's far less toxic pressure on the "late bloomer". If you are supposed at 25 to be already super experienced and to look only for 25 yo girls... it's far more likely for the virgin guy to fall into the negative feedback of inceldom.

[Techocracy101010]

I personally think that's not entirely true, there are a fair amount of people in at least the Netherlands that still manage to get into relationships and date even if they're immensely insecure. That said, I do feel that there's a difference between the European 'dating market' and that of the Anglo-Saxon world, especially in how vile the latter can be.

The fact that the US "dating market" is so fixated with age and experience like it's a videogame with mathmaking tiers contributes a lot to the problem. If you can have your first relationships at 25 with a 20 yo partner, there's far less toxic pressure on the "late bloomer". If you are supposed at 25 to be already super experienced and to look only for 25 yo girls... it's far more likely for the virgin guy to fall into the negative feedback of inceldom.

At age 27 i feel like i missed the boat and am never getting on . My biggest existential dread is continuing to grow older with no prospects . Im not a bad looking dude i work emergency response as my job and regularly have to certify via a physical involving a 150 lbs dummy drag of 300 feet and a 3 mile run with 45 lbs in 45 minuets. Now I am not saying this to be mean but i wish folks would stop the black guys want big woman . Every online dating profile i have only gets returns from i shit you not 350-400 lbs woman . Look I am big as a lifter (225lbs) but its depressing when you have a degree are fit and the only woman who hit you up is martha from wallmart who is 3 times my damn body weight. Which i wish i was fucking joking , i literally cannot be sexually attracted to that. I am a real person with real needs and desires yet due to chance and bad luck along with personal defects I cannot satisfy them.

[Fahran]

At age 27 i feel like i missed the boat and am never getting on . My biggest existential dread is continuing to grow older with no prospects . Im not a bad looking dude i work emergency response as my job and regularly have to certify via a physical involving a 150 lbs dummy drag of 300 feet and a 3 mile run with 45 lbs in 45 minuets. Now I am not saying this to be mean but i wish folks would stop the black guys want big woman . Every online dating profile i have only gets returns from i shit you not 350-400 lbs woman . Look I am big as a lifter (225lbs) but its depressing when you have a degree are fit and the only woman who hit you up is martha from wallmart who is 3 times my damn body weight. Which i wish i was fucking joking , i literally cannot be sexually attracted to that. I am a real person with real needs and desires yet due to chance and bad luck along with personal defects I cannot satisfy them.

Despite the fuss that's often been made about fatphobia, I don't really think there's anything particularly wrong with men not being attracted to plus-sized or obese women - just as there's not really anything particularly wrong with women not being attracted to plus-sized or obese men or short men. It does, however, limit your options potentially, and there are, of course, a lot of people who have really unreasonable standards in that regard.

I do think that y'all are getting a number of important things about dating wrong. It's not just about age and experience, especially because nobody is going to know how experienced you are in terms of dating without spending time together and discussing past relationships and the like. I'd say the main issue for people who aren't dating and want to date, which I'll distinguish from incels, is that they often suffer from a broader lack of socialization, that they lack confidence, and that they don't really ask other people. Dating apps, at least in my experience, aren't usually a way to find really fulfilling relationships. Having used a couple... I just get gross DMs from people who were attractive before they decided to message me. Also, NEVER call yourself an incel.

Finding a hobby or belonging to an in-person social network can be really, really useful when it comes to finding people of the preferred gender/sex who have similar interests and values to your own. As an example, I met my current boyfriend through my aunt who introduced us because he's literally a rabbi and I'm a bit of a religious nerd. I also know a few couples who either met due to school activities, synagogue services, or church services. Even a couple who met while volunteering at an animal shelter.

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations? And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

[Erablegensstan]

That's a good analogy towards western women nowadays. The more liberal they are the less desireable they become as mothers.

What does this even mean? What makes a good mother?

Wanting to raise children with morals. The liberal west has no concept of that.

[Techocracy101010]

At age 27 i feel like i missed the boat and am never getting on . My biggest existential dread is continuing to grow older with no prospects . Im not a bad looking dude i work emergency response as my job and regularly have to certify via a physical involving a 150 lbs dummy drag of 300 feet and a 3 mile run with 45 lbs in 45 minuets. Now I am not saying this to be mean but i wish folks would stop the black guys want big woman . Every online dating profile i have only gets returns from i shit you not 350-400 lbs woman . Look I am big as a lifter (225lbs) but its depressing when you have a degree are fit and the only woman who hit you up is martha from wallmart who is 3 times my damn body weight. Which i wish i was fucking joking , i literally cannot be sexually attracted to that. I am a real person with real needs and desires yet due to chance and bad luck along with personal defects I cannot satisfy them.

Despite the fuss that's often been made about fatphobia, I don't really think there's anything particularly wrong with men not being attracted to plus-sized or obese women - just as there's not really anything particularly wrong with women not being attracted to plus-sized or obese men or short men. It does, however, limit your options potentially, and there are, of course, a lot of people who have really unreasonable standards in that regard.

I do think that y'all are getting a number of important things about dating wrong. It's not just about age and experience, especially because nobody is going to know how experienced you are in terms of dating without spending time together and discussing past relationships and the like. I'd say the main issue for people who aren't dating and want to date, which I'll distinguish from incels, is that they often suffer from a broader lack of socialization, that they lack confidence, and that they don't really ask other people. Dating apps, at least in my experience, aren't usually a way to find really fulfilling relationships. Having used a couple... I just get gross DMs from people who were attractive before they decided to message me. Also, NEVER call yourself an incel.

Finding a hobby or belonging to an in-person social network can be really, really useful when it comes to finding people of the preferred gender/sex who have similar interests and values to your own. As an example, I met my current boyfriend through my aunt who introduced us because he's literally a rabbi and I'm a bit of a religious nerd. I also know a few couples who either met due to school activities, synagogue services, or church services. Even a couple who met while volunteering at an animal shelter.

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations? And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

I try to be as social as possible i actually was a president of the boxing club on campus. It just never worked out with dynamics. Folks always dated someone else, i bare no ill will for this but tbh i am mostly treated as a non sexual entity . Folks tell me i look good and am fun to be with but at the end of the day i go home alone. I just assume I am undesirable in someway . Thats life though it is not fair and never will be.

[Techocracy101010]

At age 27 i feel like i missed the boat and am never getting on . My biggest existential dread is continuing to grow older with no prospects . Im not a bad looking dude i work emergency response as my job and regularly have to certify via a physical involving a 150 lbs dummy drag of 300 feet and a 3 mile run with 45 lbs in 45 minuets. Now I am not saying this to be mean but i wish folks would stop the black guys want big woman . Every online dating profile i have only gets returns from i shit you not 350-400 lbs woman . Look I am big as a lifter (225lbs) but its depressing when you have a degree are fit and the only woman who hit you up is martha from wallmart who is 3 times my damn body weight. Which i wish i was fucking joking , i literally cannot be sexually attracted to that. I am a real person with real needs and desires yet due to chance and bad luck along with personal defects I cannot satisfy them.

Despite the fuss that's often been made about fatphobia, I don't really think there's anything particularly wrong with men not being attracted to plus-sized or obese women - just as there's not really anything particularly wrong with women not being attracted to plus-sized or obese men or short men. It does, however, limit your options potentially, and there are, of course, a lot of people who have really unreasonable standards in that regard.

I do think that y'all are getting a number of important things about dating wrong. It's not just about age and experience, especially because nobody is going to know how experienced you are in terms of dating without spending time together and discussing past relationships and the like. I'd say the main issue for people who aren't dating and want to date, which I'll distinguish from incels, is that they often suffer from a broader lack of socialization, that they lack confidence, and that they don't really ask other people. Dating apps, at least in my experience, aren't usually a way to find really fulfilling relationships. Having used a couple... I just get gross DMs from people who were attractive before they decided to message me. Also, NEVER call yourself an incel.

Finding a hobby or belonging to an in-person social network can be really, really useful when it comes to finding people of the preferred gender/sex who have similar interests and values to your own. As an example, I met my current boyfriend through my aunt who introduced us because he's literally a rabbi and I'm a bit of a religious nerd. I also know a few couples who either met due to school activities, synagogue services, or church services. Even a couple who met while volunteering at an animal shelter.

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations? And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

I try to be as social as possible i actually was a president of the boxing club on campus. It just never worked out with dynamics. Folks always dated someone else, i bare no ill will for this but tbh i am mostly treated as a non sexual entity . Folks tell me i look good and am fun to be with but at the end of the day i go home alone. I just assume I am undesirable in someway . Thats life though it is not fair and never will be.

[Fahran]

Wanting to raise children with morals. The liberal west has no concept of that.

We absolutely have a concept of raising our children with morals. It's something parents agonize over on a routine basis, and something we engage in very spirited public policy debates over. Mind you, I think there are very good critiques we can make of certain aspects of child-rearing and culture, but "y'all just have no concept of morality/ethics" isn't really a good one.

[Fahran]

I try to be as social as possible i actually was a president of the boxing club on campus. It just never worked out with dynamics. Folks always dated someone else, i bare no ill will for this but tbh i am mostly treated as a non sexual entity . Folks tell me i look good and am fun to be with but at the end of the day i go home alone. I just assume I am undesirable in someway . Thats life though it is not fair and never will be.

If you're a man, the social expectation a lot of men and women, since I'm not assuming your sexual orientation here, might have is that you'll make the first move in initiating a romantic relationship. Mind you, I understand and appreciate the arguments folks make about that being antiquated and unfair, but surveys routinely show that most women are unwilling to ask men out. I doubt there's anything particularly wrong with you. A lot of the incels who have gained notoriety have been average-looking or even slightly above average-looking. They just had a chip on their shoulders about not having had a relationship by twenty and serious issues with socialization and confidence. A LOT of men and WOMEN are in similar situations. And it's not a hopeless situation. Heck, one of my sister's former coworkers met her boyfriend when he was twenty six. Guy had never dated. They're married now.

[Erablegensstan]

Wanting to raise children with morals. The liberal west has no concept of that.

We absolutely have a concept of raising our children with morals. It's something parents agonize over on a routine basis, and something we engage in very spirited public policy debates over. Mind you, I think there are very good critiques we can make of certain aspects of child-rearing and culture, but "y'all just have no concept of morality/ethics" isn't really a good one.

Seeing the current state of the West, I highly doubt that.

[Ors Might]

Why is mental help only applicable to incels but not to those who treated them like shit?

Incels aren't victims.

I would argue they're victims of radicalization, echo chambers, and the toxicity of how much importance culture places on relationships and sex.

[Fahran]

Seeing the current state of the West, I highly doubt that.

Would you care to cite some examples?

[Ors Might]

We absolutely have a concept of raising our children with morals. It's something parents agonize over on a routine basis, and something we engage in very spirited public policy debates over. Mind you, I think there are very good critiques we can make of certain aspects of child-rearing and culture, but "y'all just have no concept of morality/ethics" isn't really a good one.

Seeing the current state of the West, I highly doubt that.

No we have concepts of morality/ethics, you just dislike what they are. I've yet to meet anyone that doesn't hold some sort of view or stance on anything.

[Crysuko]

What does this even mean? What makes a good mother?

Wanting to raise children with morals. The liberal west has no concept of that.

"Morals" = my brand of reactionary horse manure. "morals" have been used since forever to argue against any kind of social progress.