The Problem with Andrew Tate (and Incel Radicalization)

[Stellar Colonies]

Sai, when is the last time you ever went on a date?

I'm just going by what I read from other people. I'm Schizoid, so it isn't something that speaks to me- way too much emotion. I prefer messaging on Discord/online infinitely more than talking in person. The man paying for everything, sounds like an arrangement I want to avoid. Keeping your money or preventing its depletion is more important whilst you're not yet rich enough.

The man paying for everything, sounds like an arrangement I want to avoid.

Ah, there's one of the reasons why I want gender roles to be abolished.

[Crysuko]

I’m just a gobshite who’s insensate to social cues.

[Fahran]

Does the Manosphere have any good points? I'd contend that it wouldn't exist if those people who comprise it, didn't have any greivances over how the world currently works so far as gender roles/relations go. If Andrew Tate is out of the picture, who is most likely to replace him?

The Manosphere mostly misdiagnoses a lot of the problems confronting modern men. I do think loneliness, social alienation, listlessness, lack of purpose or meaning, lack of self-actualization, purely transactional relationships, weaker connections to family and community, etc. are all serious problems that require a solution. I also think that feminism often neglects the male perspective to a significant degree, even as it seeks to uplift men, and that purely materialist explanations related to wage stagnation, declining standards of living, etc. aren't wholly adequate explanations. That said, the Manosphere misses why these problems have arisen in favor of huffing and puffing about how the grifter of the week is the manliest manly man who ever manned mannily or blaming women as a social class for all the world's ills. Never mind that said manliest manly man who ever manned mannily is participating in the most toxic aspects of modern culture and abusing people, often women, in the process while falling far short of conventional ideals of masculinity.

[Fahran]

I'm not so sure. I hear a lot about how people don't communicate as well anymore relatively speaking, compared to in the past. Allegedly, present day dating/hookup culture is complete rubbish, based mainly on looks and mind games. Perhaps they don't approve of the status quo. I certainly don't like LGBTQ+ stuff becoming more prominent to where it is in your face everywhere- rather than closeted. I want nothing to do with what isn't cisgender, but it is as if you can't escape from that stuff. So much of everything is just "anything goes" nowadays.

Hookup culture reduces dating to sexual gratification. It's not really surprising that those invested in don't care all that much about personality, interests, or long-term prospects if they're just hoping to do the no-pants dance with someone they'll likely never call or hang out with again. Luckily, this appears to be uncommon among most people or at least has remained something folks grow out of when they reach a certain age. The more serious problem in my view is that a lot of people don't bother to date or socialize at all, instead remaining at home, never dating, and never marrying with increasing frequency. That is actually a serious existential problem for any society.

Sai, no normal person is going to force you to date men or transwomen. The people complaining about prejudicial dating preferences are doing it from a purely ideological perspective online or on university campuses or are pulling a more nuanced version of nice guy/girl rhetoric to make themselves feel better about rejection - which sucks and results in hurt feelings fairly often.

[Fahran]

I'm just going by what I read from other people. I'm Schizoid, so it isn't something that speaks to me- way too much emotion. I prefer messaging on Discord/online infinitely more than talking in person. The man paying for everything, sounds like an arrangement I want to avoid. Keeping your money or preventing its depletion is more important whilst you're not yet rich enough.

While the man paying is normal where I live, I've always been taught that a woman not at least offering to split the check is very poor form. There's a lot of women who don't mind splitting the check. Or even covering it all from time to time. It's fine if you're not interested in dating, but I wouldn't take cues from how things are from people who don't go on dates and who dislike half the human species.

[Neutraligon]

I'm just going by what I read from other people. I'm Schizoid, so it isn't something that speaks to me- way too much emotion. I prefer messaging on Discord/online infinitely more than talking in person. The man paying for everything, sounds like an arrangement I want to avoid. Keeping your money or preventing its depletion is more important whilst you're not yet rich enough.

While the man paying is normal where I live, I've always been taught that a woman not at least offering to split the check is very poor form. There's a lot of women who don't mind splitting the check. Or even covering it all from time to time. It's fine if you're not interested in dating, but I wouldn't take cues from how things are from people who don't go on dates and who dislike half the human species.

When we first started out my boyfriend and I would split. Eventually, we went to whoever feels like paying; Ended up being about 50-50. Actually, that tends to be how it is with my friends in general, regardless of sex/gender. Most of my friends actually prefer splitting when first starting dating because it feels safer to do so, as they have no obligation to the the date. It is only after they start feeling truly comfortable dating the individual that splitting becomes less of a thing.

[Saiwania]

It's fine if you're not interested in dating, but I wouldn't take cues from how things are from people who don't go on dates and who dislike half the human species.

Rather than it being just a handful of people, it is tens of millions of people all complaining online about the same things/trends. So it makes me believe more that something is going on. Something about the internet/social media/smartphones has made certain aspects of the world worse. It probably doesn't effect the people who go outside as much, but the people who're more shut in or isolated, or are in an unfulfilling routine like if they're in a lame job or digital world addiction, they're feeling the sheer drudgery real life can offer to those who never found happiness or more likely never will.

[A m e n r i a]

The guy got arrested for human trafficking again.

[Fahran]

Rather than it being just a handful of people, it is tens of millions of people all complaining online about the same things/trends. So it makes me believe more that something is going on. Something about the internet/social media/smartphones has made certain aspects of the world worse. It probably doesn't effect the people who go outside as much, but the people who're more shut in or isolated, or are in an unfulfilling routine like if they're in a lame job or digital world addiction, they're feeling the sheer drudgery real life can offer to those who never found happiness or more likely never will.

Tens of millions of self-selected people, many of whom have next to no first-hand experience with the thing they're complaining about.

You're at least right about the internet, social media, and smartphones, but I think you're accepting a lot of claims without evidence from very unreliable sources.

[Filonian State]

Andrew Tate and his brother have been arrested by the Romanian authorities in relation to a human trafficking and rape case

I bl**t horošo.
And f******g good.

[Saiwania]

You're at least right about the internet, social media, and smartphones, but I think you're accepting a lot of claims without evidence from very unreliable sources.

If people complain, it is clearly because the process doesn't work or isn't ideal for everyone. They need a different path. It is like the people who played football and whine about how sweaty/tired they're getting vs. the people who play football and ignored the pain/burden and went about playing to win/get better. Lots of people are more inclined to quit and never try again what they realize they'll never find enjoyable.

If there is no right way to go about it, that implies to me that most people don't benefit and just do whatever while a minority benefit from the status quo remaining the same. Nothing should ever change because the solution given is- just conform to what is popular or mainstream. Become someone you're truly not for more success.

[Tidelia]

There are many, MANY things wrong with Andrew Tate, and there should be absolutely 0 reason to platform this guy. Of course, we could look at how his statements affect the general perception of women in America and push many people's ideals of women back to outdated, misogynistic gender roles, but I'd like to point out two other things regarding his whole situation.

First off, his ideology and statements don't only hurt women, they hurt men too. The outdated gender roles that Tate puts out contain many hurtful, mentally damaging things onto men. A lot of it forces them to confine themselves to the very strict societal perception of 'man' and 'woman', which upholds man as an unwavering, constantly working, never emotional powerhouse. This idea can cause extreme mental torment onto men that feel obliged to follow them in many ways: it causes them to bottle up their emotions, which leads to larger outbursts that often result in violent activities, it forces them into accept piss-poor working conditions and non-existent workers rights because they feel like it makes them 'more of a man' (see tik tok as an example for these guys. a lot of men on there push for, and even take pride in accepting worker exploitation. this could go on a whole rant about how these ideologies uphold exploitative capitalism, but that's a different topic), and it makes them deny things that they may genuinely enjoy because enjoying it may be seen as unmanly. I could go on in more detail about these, or I could also bring up how it damages father-son relationships and male friendships, but I'll leave it at that.

Secondly, there's the horrible argument that he's just 'playing a character'- which, no, he's not. But I'll entertain that argument for the purposes of this point. Even if Andrew Tate really was playing a character and didn't truly believe the things he says, the impressionable boys that listen to him WILL believe the things he says. Character or not, it still spreads bigotry, and it still spreads hate. The teenage boys that follow him treat his word as gospel, and as such, will take the apparently 'fake' views of Andrew Tate and legitimately apply them to themselves.

That's a little bit of what I think about him. However, I feel like the fact he just got arrested for sex-trafficking may wake some of his followers up to the horrible things he spews, but who knows.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

The Manosphere mostly misdiagnoses a lot of the problems confronting modern men. I do think loneliness, social alienation, listlessness, lack of purpose or meaning, lack of self-actualization, purely transactional relationships, weaker connections to family and community, etc. are all serious problems that require a solution.

I very strongly disagree.

The freedom of association means accepting the absence of any inherent right to human company. People who are lonely and feel disconnected should learn to deal with it, because they are not entitled to human company, full stop.

Should it come down to a policy question, I will vote to defend the social atomisation of the Industrial Revolution and I will protest against any reinstatement of the tyranny of cousin and neighbour. Social atomisation has been one of the greatest victories for individual freedom in human history, and it pains me to listen to people talk about it like it's some kind of problem to be fixed.

To say nothing of "listnessness and a lack of purpose". It is an important part of the experience of being free that you discover your own spirituality - or fail to do so, if that's what it comes down to - rather than sit down listening receptively to some robed conman who exploits your very human emotional desire for the world to make sense to fill your ears with made-up stories about some supernatural order.

[Saiwania]

If the conservative movement is all about turning back the clock and undoing progress which was pushed by liberals, we perhaps have to accept that at it's root, some (but probably not all or most) within conservative movement, believe women should go back to being considered property by society. Because simply put, that used to be the case historically in many places.

Hence the lack of outrage against Andrew Tate in right wing circles. If the crimes are true, they deep down don't necessarily believe he's done anything wrong. The reason the Only Fans website is objected to much more by comparison, is because women on the platform control their own content/revenues and aren't going through a middle man like Andrew Tate.

The Taliban banning women from all of education in Afghanistan, that is secretly applauded and admired from afar. The Overton window being pushed to that point is the end goal.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

-snip-

Yep. That's what all this rhetoric against modernity is designed to bring about, in the end. All this tut-tut'ing about "social alienation" or "loss of purpose" or whatever. The telos of all those arguments is basically "Kinder, Küche, Kirche", in the end. The good old values of the good old days.

We must always be on guard against conservatism, against tradition, and against religion.

[Saiwania]

I don't care all that much about feminism/women's rights, but am not automatically against it either. Am more biased against it at worst- as someone who's not a woman. It seems stubbornly complex and difficult to see through 100% of the time. So many perks/rights women could want, are effectively zero sum, or come back to disadvantage men in some way or vice versa.

My realist take, is that egalitarianism is a pipe dream to a large extent. What will really happen is that we'll see periods where either men or women have more advantages, interspersed by push and pull until the other side wins out. We just happen to live in a time where the pendulum was swung too far against men in the developed countries.

[Kazak Yeli]

Allegedly, present day dating/hookup culture is complete rubbish, based mainly on looks and mind games.

You're right, it is complete rubbish. I'm just lucky that I happened to meet my girlfriend in person, and she fulfilled my criteria.

As for online dating, tinder and so on, the playing field is skewed in favor of girls. There are 100 males for every 1 female, so they can afford to be picky and demanding, whereas the boys take what they can get.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

Social atomisation has been one of the greatest victories for individual freedom in human history, and it pains me to listen to people talk about it like it's some kind of problem to be fixed.

Because it going too far and being partly responsible for a rise in mental illnesses is a good thing.

[Awesomeland]

comes in with my THANGATRUCK
idrk why elon musk unbanned him and allowed him to gain another platform to do dumb shit]

But hey, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake, right?

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Because it going too far and being partly responsible for a rise in mental illnesses is a good thing. :roll:

Too far? Not far enough. Parents still have too much power over their children's lives and opportunities are still so heavily restricted by which community a person is born into.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

Because it going too far and being partly responsible for a rise in mental illnesses is a good thing.

Too far? Not far enough. Parents still have too much power over their children's lives and opportunities are still so heavily restricted by which community a person is born into.

Well, expect a resurgence of the far-right then, and more people like Tate. They benefit from the byproducts of such idiotic positions.

[Kazak Yeli]

Too far? Not far enough. Parents still have too much power over their children's lives and opportunities are still so heavily restricted by which community a person is born into.

Well, expect a resurgence of the far-right then, and more people like Tate. They benefit from the byproducts of such idiotic positions.

To be fair, you would likely class me as "far-right", and I'm the complete opposite of someone who's disconnected from society.

My political beliefs formed over time, and were shaped by experiences I've had in the outside world.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

Well, expect a resurgence of the far-right then, and more people like Tate. They benefit from the byproducts of such idiotic positions.

To be fair, you would likely class me as "far-right", and I'm the complete opposite of someone who's disconnected from society.

My political beliefs formed over time, and were shaped by experiences I've had in the outside world.

Are you American? In America, practically everyone is disconnected from society. Atomization is a problem in the west as a whole, but it is a whole nother level here.

I'm not familiar with your political views, so I cannot confirm or deny how I would classify you.

[Kazak Yeli]

Are you American?

Ethnically Kazakh, culturally American.

In America, practically everyone is disconnected from society. Atomization is a problem in the west as a whole, but it is a whole nother level here.

I wouldn't say I'm disconnected. I have friends from most ethnicity's and walks of life and have travelled around a lot.

I'm not familiar with your political views, so I cannot confirm or deny how I would classify you.

I'm a fan of Trump and Tucker Carlson.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

I wouldn't say I'm disconnected. I have friends from most ethnicity's and walks of life and have travelled around a lot.

Most are, and it is getting worse. To make it even worse, both "sides" proudly double down on making it worse.

I'm a fan of Trump and Tucker Carlson.

Yes, the man who deliberately took advantage of existing divisions to atomize society even more. They all do it, but Trump didn't even pretend to do anything different.

You're right. I do categorize you as far-right.