The Problem with Andrew Tate (and Incel Radicalization)

[Fahran]

"Morals" = my brand of reactionary horse manure. "morals" have been used since forever to argue against any kind of social progress.

Morals and ethics have also been used since forever to argue in favor of any kind of social progress, at least if the people involved were thus inclined.

[Crysuko]

"Morals" = my brand of reactionary horse manure. "morals" have been used since forever to argue against any kind of social progress.

Morals and ethics have also been used since forever to argue in favor of any kind of social progress, at least if the people involved were thus inclined.

Thus proving that "morals" is a nothing statement which shouldn't be taken as any kind of argument either way

[Fahran]

Morals and ethics have also been used since forever to argue in favor of any kind of social progress, at least if the people involved were thus inclined.

Thus proving that "morals" is a nothing statement which shouldn't be taken as any kind of argument either way

Not without additional details. Hence why I asked.

[Techocracy101010]

Morals like religion really gets argued over in a pointless manner because everyone thinks they are right with no real evidence. The only absolute moral thing i can say is do not inflict un needed suffering upon others but even that is subjective. As for the moral decay of the west, we genocided millions we killed enslaved and raped like every other civilization. We let the poor starve and die in the streets , our history is built on blood and suffering as that is human. I will not deem present year any less moral than when it was legal to lynch black children from trees or groups would hunt minorities for fun. Nor will i say we are less moral than when our society chose to let the old the sick and frail die alone in the back alley slums of our cities. Nor can i say the past was better . Rape rates were very high for most of our history was that moral? Was the higher homicide rates during 1700-19990 more moral? What is this morality? A simple sanitized holywood myth of the past.


You want a past that never existed

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations? And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

Rarely, and none.

It's not like I have no interest in dating, mind you: I asked out a few people in secondary school - none successfully, alas. But since then I started studying at a technical institution in a highly social-conservative country, and that just took what little interest I had in other people (I wasn't a particularly extroverted person to begin with) and murdered it. These days I only put myself into social situations if I absolutely have to in order to avoid being the odd-one-out amongst my coworkers.

Honestly in many ways it feels like I'm just becoming one of those bitter people whose lives peaked in senior school.

[Techocracy101010]

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations? And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

Rarely, and none.

It's not like I have no interest in dating, mind you: I asked out a few people in secondary school - none successfully, alas. But since then I started studying at a technical institution in a highly social-conservative country, and that just took what little interest I had in other people (I wasn't a particularly extroverted person to begin with) and murdered it. These days I only put myself into social situations if I absolutely have to in order to avoid being the odd-one-out amongst my coworkers.

Honestly in many ways it feels like I'm just becoming one of those bitter people whose lives peaked in senior school.

better than never peaking socially lol

[Fractalnavel]

A problem in recognizing opportunity may be a contributing factor. Looking back at various interactions through your own memories or perhaps with the assistance of a friend may uncover that reality was somewhat different than what was perceived at the time. And then there's the possibility of people in your life who insist on communicating or reinforcing negative messages. One way to test that is asking a hypothetical to which you know an answer, and see what they say. I've thought people were 'friendly' at times when they proved out to definitely not be that at all.

Looking at this phenomena as a symptom can be a useful angle. Internalized negative messaging whatever the source needs to be recognized and countered. There are simple and effective behavior mod techniques that anyone can do for themselves. In the end it comes down to willingness, and why that may or may not be.

Not saying this is necessarily easy to do, especially getting started. And there are certainly circumstances that need other measures to deal with. But having a robust toolbox for positive change helps.

[Stellar Colonies]

...

I guess that brings up another question. How often do y'all put yourselves into social situations?

...

I sometimes go through this weird little cycle of:

Know I'm not interested
V
Wonder if I'm making a mistake by staying out of it which I'll regret later
V
Wonder if I should try to
V
Remember the reasons for why I'm not interested and also that pushing myself into trying would be a terrible experience for everyone involved
V
Know I'm not interested
V
Wonder if I'm making a mistake by staying out of it which I'll regret later

The period of this loop tends to vary, and I've never gone beyond this step.

...

And, follow-up, how many people have you asked out in the past month? And in the past year?

I've heard people commenting on my physical appearance (once from some college students when I was a high school freshman, which was a little uncomfortable) and someone once spread a rumor that I slept with her, but I've never explicitly had someone ask me out, unless it flew right over my head.

[Ayytaly]

Incels aren't victims.

I would argue they're victims of radicalization, echo chambers, and the toxicity of how much importance culture places on relationships and sex.

Well now, someone nails it without demonizing them.

Morals like religion really gets argued over in a pointless manner because everyone thinks they are right with no real evidence. The only absolute moral thing i can say is do not inflict un needed suffering upon others but even that is subjective. As for the moral decay of the west, we genocided millions we killed enslaved and raped like every other civilization. We let the poor starve and die in the streets , our history is built on blood and suffering as that is human. I will not deem present year any less moral than when it was legal to lynch black children from trees or groups would hunt minorities for fun. Nor will i say we are less moral than when our society chose to let the old the sick and frail die alone in the back alley slums of our cities. Nor can i say the past was better . Rape rates were very high for most of our history was that moral? Was the higher homicide rates during 1700-19990 more moral? What is this morality? A simple sanitized holywood myth of the past.


You want a past that never existed

It existed before 1492.

[Techocracy101010]

I would argue they're victims of radicalization, echo chambers, and the toxicity of how much importance culture places on relationships and sex.

Well now, someone nails it without demonizing them.

Morals like religion really gets argued over in a pointless manner because everyone thinks they are right with no real evidence. The only absolute moral thing i can say is do not inflict un needed suffering upon others but even that is subjective. As for the moral decay of the west, we genocided millions we killed enslaved and raped like every other civilization. We let the poor starve and die in the streets , our history is built on blood and suffering as that is human. I will not deem present year any less moral than when it was legal to lynch black children from trees or groups would hunt minorities for fun. Nor will i say we are less moral than when our society chose to let the old the sick and frail die alone in the back alley slums of our cities. Nor can i say the past was better . Rape rates were very high for most of our history was that moral? Was the higher homicide rates during 1700-19990 more moral? What is this morality? A simple sanitized holywood myth of the past.


You want a past that never existed

It existed before 1492.

Can you expand on that i am interested in what you are trying to say or imply here.

[El Lazaro]

Well now, someone nails it without demonizing them.



It existed before 1492.

Can you expand on that i am interested in what you are trying to say or imply here.

I think he’s conflating the nebulous concept of the West with post-Columbus America.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I would argue they're victims of radicalization, echo chambers, and the toxicity of how much importance culture places on relationships and sex.

Well now, someone nails it without demonizing them.

Lots of people who have said and done terrible things were radicalized by echo chambers, including mass shooters. It really isn't unfair to view incels negatively for their misogynistic beliefs.

[Techocracy101010]

Can you expand on that i am interested in what you are trying to say or imply here.

I think he’s conflating the nebulous concept of the West with post-Columbus America.

Folks were still down right crazy before than . I mean there was no time where everything was moral and just

[Ayytaly]

Well now, someone nails it without demonizing them.

Lots of people who have said and done terrible things were radicalized by echo chambers, including mass shooters. It really isn't unfair to view incels negatively for their misogynistic beliefs.

The moment an "incel" does those things above then he's a terrorist. For now they're people who are labeled as "incels" the same way people who don't support BLM are called "racist".

[Alcala-Cordel]

Lots of people who have said and done terrible things were radicalized by echo chambers, including mass shooters. It really isn't unfair to view incels negatively for their misogynistic beliefs.

The moment an "incel" does those things above then he's a terrorist. For now they're people who are labeled as "incels" the same way people who don't support BLM are called "racist".

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

[Ors Might]

The moment an "incel" does those things above then he's a terrorist. For now they're people who are labeled as "incels" the same way people who don't support BLM are called "racist".

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Their beliefs are indeed horrific and are by themselves worthy of condemnation. By calling incels victims of radicalization and culture, I am not attempting to excuse them but rather to point out that becoming an incel is less a conscious decision and more a steady process and decline, one that requires social change and awareness to combat.

[Fahran]

Honestly in many ways it feels like I'm just becoming one of those bitter people whose lives peaked in senior school.

Ouch.

What do you think it would take for you to put yourself back out there? I do believe it's important to at least contemplate what you would like in the long-term if the alternative if perceiving yourself in such negative terms and feeling bitter about how things have panned out. You do still control your own destiny after all.

[Alcala-Cordel]

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Their beliefs are indeed horrific and are by themselves worthy of condemnation. By calling incels victims of radicalization and culture, I am not attempting to excuse them but rather to point out that becoming an incel is less a conscious decision and more a steady process and decline, one that requires social change and awareness to combat.

Fair enough

[Ayytaly]

The moment an "incel" does those things above then he's a terrorist. For now they're people who are labeled as "incels" the same way people who don't support BLM are called "racist".

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

I think it was pretty clear what they meant by "civil rights" in that post.

[Bewaffnete Krafte]

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

Uh...
Equal rights for everyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, or otherwise?
That's kinda the definition.

[Ayytaly]

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

Uh...
Equal rights for everyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, or otherwise?
That's kinda the definition.

Are Native Americans eligible for reparations?

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

Uh...
Equal rights for everyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, gender, or otherwise?
That's kinda the definition.

I think maybe he was saying that people who don't support civil rights for women or whatever wouldn't be racist specifically. if that's the case, it's a nitpick.

[Neutraligon]

Lots of people who have said and done terrible things were radicalized by echo chambers, including mass shooters. It really isn't unfair to view incels negatively for their misogynistic beliefs.

The moment an "incel" does those things above then he's a terrorist. For now they're people who are labeled as "incels" the same way people who don't support BLM are called "racist".

THe two are not mutually exclusive. One can be an incel and a terrorist, just like one can be a Muslim and a terrorist.

[Alcala-Cordel]

My point being online radicalization to a disgusting poiny of view is not a justifiable defense. Incels are fundamentally misogynists, and people who don't support civil rights are racists.

Depends on what civil rights you're talking about.

In the case of the BLM movement, ending systemic racism.