American Politics XIV: The Dawning of the Age of the Pumpkin

[The Jamesian Republic]

While I'm not going to defend Prima's argument, a cursory google search shows that Trotsky opposed fascism, even going as far as to write a book on how to fight it.

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.

Lol, says the Stalin apologists. Hey, did you know what happened to gender nonconforming people that were “assigned male” in Stalin’s USSR?

yes. that was a bad thing.

surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.

He would have invaded Germany even before Hitler could have solidified his power, then try to fund violent socialist movements in the west as opposed to "socialism in one country." I'm not a fan of Trotsky, but I think there are better criticisms that can be thrown his way.

the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

[Prima Scriptura]

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.


yes. that was a bad thing.

surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.


the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

I would too. I’m considered a “socialist” by the vast majority of American conservatives, even though my ideology is historically right-wing and was developed as a alternative to Socialism.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

This however does not contradict what I wrote.

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.

There are people who visit North Korea as well. It doesn't inherently mean they're fond of the government or its actions. And what anti-socialist prattle?

[The Jamesian Republic]

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

I would too. I’m considered a “socialist” by the vast majority of American conservatives, even though my ideology is historically right-wing and was developed as a alternative to Socialism.

I’m sympathetic to ideologies like Democratic Socialism and Market Socialism so I guess on the basis of liking co-ops and workers owning the economy an alliance could be made. As for markets and the type of democracy used that would be a source of conflict.

[HISPIDA]

the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

This however does not contradict what I wrote.

eh, true. but it undermines the idea that trotsky both would've attempted to invade germany and would've been successful in an invasion of germany.

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.

There are people who visit North Korea as well. It doesn't inherently mean they're fond of the government or its actions. And what anti-socialist prattle?

...everything he said about the USSR? in addition, trotsky was an open counterrevolutionary. he was a blatant opportunist, changing opinions whenever it suited him, something recognized by the people around him. he had no firm understanding of marxism, taking only the bare minimum --- revolution, capitalist exploitation, &c. --- but when revolution came and the post-revolutionary state was established, suddenly it wasn't a revolutionary state! he blindly insisted that the revolutionary state was a class, not a dictatorship of a class. he was an idealist and an opportunist; "socialism, but not leninist socialism, but socialism better than socailism!" and when people don't agree with trotsky, of course they're just "bewildered" or "brainwashed" by a "degenerated workers' state" or "stalinist bureaucracy" (even though both lenin and stalin had multiple writings where they opposed bureaucracy and actively fought against it in the soviet union!). he repeated lies about the soviet union, quoted works by unironic white emigre fascists, and was either unwillingly or (more likely) unwittingly a pawn of reaction and revision.

i could go on, but i'll just leave you with these fine four links.

[Tarsonis]

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.


yes. that was a bad thing.

surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.


the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

Same, but that's not saying much for me. Also depends on the socialist: DemSocs I can tolerate.

[Tarsonis]

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.


yes. that was a bad thing.

surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.


the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

Same, but that's not saying much for me. Also depends on the socialist: DemSocs I can tolerate.

[Prima Scriptura]

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

Same, but that's not saying much for me. Also depends on the socialist: DemSocs I can tolerate.

I guess paternalistic conservatives would be considered “right-wing socdems”
In the American politics, right?

[Dimetrodon Empire]

eh, true. but it undermines the idea that trotsky both would've attempted to invade germany and would've been successful in an invasion of germany.

Trotsky would have antagonized the west a lot more than Stalin did. His foreign policy would have been reckless, borderline suicidal. So yes, he would have attempted to invade Germany to stop fascism, even if the odds were against him. My point is this was not a man who was pro-fascism.[/quote]

...everything he said about the USSR? in addition, trotsky was an open counterrevolutionary. he was a blatant opportunist, changing opinions whenever it suited him, something recognized by the people around him. he had no firm understanding of marxism, taking only the bare minimum --- revolution, capitalist exploitation, &c. --- but when revolution came and the post-revolutionary state was established, suddenly it wasn't a revolutionary state! he blindly insisted that the revolutionary state was a class, not a dictatorship of a class. he was an idealist and an opportunist; "socialism, but not leninist socialism, but socialism better than socailism!" and when people don't agree with trotsky, of course they're just "bewildered" or "brainwashed" by a "degenerated workers' state" or "stalinist bureaucracy" (even though both lenin and stalin had multiple writings where they opposed bureaucracy and actively fought against it in the soviet union!). he repeated lies about the soviet union, quoted works by unironic white emigre fascists, and was either unwillingly or (more likely) unwittingly a pawn of reaction and revision.

Nothing here is terrible, and what is shady is likely exaggerated or invented. He didn't like Stalin or what he was doing and, and Trotsky was literally murdered in Mexico for it. You seem to think that criticism of one man and his policies amount to treason, which shows how anti-democratic your ideology is.

[The Jamesian Republic]

Same, but that's not saying much for me. Also depends on the socialist: DemSocs I can tolerate.

I guess paternalistic conservatives would be considered “right-wing socdems”
In the American politics, right?

Yes. You’re socially conservative but economically social democratic.

[The Jamesian Republic]

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

Same, but that's not saying much for me. Also depends on the socialist: DemSocs I can tolerate.

I’m sympathetic to DemSocs so welcome aboard.

[The Black Forrest]

Does it now? What do you consider good?

Things which don't suck
Speaking of which, I've tried to engage you about ATLA several times now - there's an excellent piece of culture/media.

I’m sorry….you did? Big fan; lets talk in the arts section…..

[HISPIDA]

You seem to think that criticism of one man and his policies amount to treason

aw, i don't think it was treason. i just think it shows that trotsky was a fucking idiot.

which shows how anti-democratic your ideology is

this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy applies in a socialist system and how western notions of liberal democracy are regarded as the only democracy when it is anything but.

[The Jamesian Republic]

You seem to think that criticism of one man and his policies amount to treason

aw, i don't think it was treason. i just think it shows that trotsky was a fucking idiot.

which shows how anti-democratic your ideology is

this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy applies in a socialist system and how western notions of liberal democracy are regarded as the only democracy when it is anything but.

What’s your opinion on a hybrid of representative and direct democracy?

[HISPIDA]

aw, i don't think it was treason. i just think it shows that trotsky was a fucking idiot.


this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy applies in a socialist system and how western notions of liberal democracy are regarded as the only democracy when it is anything but.

What’s your opinion on a hybrid of representative and direct democracy?

in a liberal democratic sense, i don't support it. to paraphrase lenin, "democracy" in the west is functionally the same as the slave-owning "democracies" of ancient greece.

[The Jamesian Republic]

What’s your opinion on a hybrid of representative and direct democracy?

in a liberal democratic sense, i don't support it. to paraphrase lenin, "democracy" in the west is functionally the same as the slave-owning "democracies" of ancient greece.

Oh.

[El Lazaro]

he also vacationed in italy in 1932, when communists in the country were being rounded up and executed. he indirectly aided nazi germany by writing anti-socialist prattle, as well.


yes. that was a bad thing.

surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.


the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

I mean I would rather work with socialists than fascists.

You don’t have to prove that you’re one of the good ones because the entire “social democracy is worse than fascism” talking point is utter nonsense to begin with. Authoritarians simply have a shared interest in destroying democracy and would rather seize the opportunity to attack it on both fronts than defeat the more dangerous alternative. The fact they chose to do so is only a condemnation of their own tactics.

[Prima Scriptura]

What’s your opinion on a hybrid of representative and direct democracy?

in a liberal democratic sense, i don't support it. to paraphrase lenin, "democracy" in the west is functionally the same as the slave-owning "democracies" of ancient greece.

Lol, no.

[Dimetrodon Empire]

You seem to think that criticism of one man and his policies amount to treason

aw, i don't think it was treason. i just think it shows that trotsky was a fucking idiot.

which shows how anti-democratic your ideology is

this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how democracy applies in a socialist system and how western notions of liberal democracy are regarded as the only democracy when it is anything but.

aw, you think you can have democracy without any characteristics of democracy.

[Rusozak]

Oh boy, are we debating an American high school level understanding of communism again?

[Thermodolia]

I hope his opponent wins like Doug Jones won against Roy Moore.

Not likely. Pensacola's a MAGA stronghold being mostly marines and social conservatives, and it's only gotten more right wing in recent years. It used to be Joe Scarborough from MSNBC's district.

Marines? There’s no USMC base in that area

[The Black Forrest]

Not likely. Pensacola's a MAGA stronghold being mostly marines and social conservatives, and it's only gotten more right wing in recent years. It used to be Joe Scarborough from MSNBC's district.

Marines? There’s no USMC base in that area

I had the same thought and was going to ask. Thanks for answering!

[Khurkhogur]

Lol, says the Stalin apologists. Hey, did you know what happened to gender nonconforming people that were “assigned male” in Stalin’s USSR?

yes. that was a bad thing.
surprise, surprise, i don't think stalin was some paragon of virtue and a perfect leader of the most perfect thing to ever exist. if you expect me to blindly defend stalin and fall into great man theory, you're sorely mistaken.

I don't think you understand. Being "gender-nonconforming" was not even a concept for the leadership of the USSR (or its population). The Soviet system briefly tolerated homosexuality, but from Stalin's rule to the end of the USSR, homosexuality was treated with disdain (and is still treated with disdain even in "liberal" Poland to say nothing of Russia). It's not that Stalin wasn't a "paragon of virtue" - his system and his country would be fundamentally opposed to practically all of your positions today. If you (you specifically) lived in the USSR, even in the relatively more tolerant 70s and 80s, you probably would have been put in prison for being a dissident if you ever made your views known publicly.

the USSR under stalin literally offered to the west multiple times to create defensive pacts against hitler; stalin even personally said he would send 1 million men to fight nazi germany if britain and france accepted the alliance. this, of course, did not happen, because liberals would rather work with fascists than socialists.

While I'm not sure if this is strictly true, it sounds on the mark. Britain and France did not lift a finger to help Republican Spain, but they definitely threw some weight behind Franco iirc. Seems reasonable that they would oppose the USSR more than Nazi Germany seeing as they were at war with them just ~20 years prior. But I don't see how that's relevant

[Thermodolia]

Marines? There’s no USMC base in that area

I had the same thought and was going to ask. Thanks for answering!

All USMC bases are in California, Virginia, Arizona, North & South Carolina, Hawaii, and Georgia.

None exist in Florida

[Khurkhogur]

Things which don't suck
Speaking of which, I've tried to engage you about ATLA several times now - there's an excellent piece of culture/media.

I’m sorry….you did? Big fan; lets talk in the arts section…..

I'd be happy to, where's that?