American Politics XIV: The Dawning of the Age of the Pumpkin

[Yerachmeal]

At least you except that humans are animals. I get frustrated when people say otherwise.

I always love when people try and make arguments for how "humans are above the animals."
We are animals, and we aren't even what I'd consider the most successful species on earth. Bacteria of many, MANY types still win out there.

Agree that we're animals, disagree that bacteria>humans.

[Mattopilos III]

That explains why American politics seems to have such a skewed 2-party system even by the standards of most nations that have 2-party systems.

I think there are other people who could give a better example. This is just my general understanding I could be wrong.

Well for comparison, in Australia we use a system where people put in preferences i.e. you put in 1-6 or whatever for which party you support, with 1 being your first pick, 2 being your second and so on.
The first preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not, the second preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not... you see where I'm going with it.
But it is still a two party system because we just happen to have two large parties that are analogous to the Democrats and Republicans here, with the most members, money, publicity, etc.

[Mattopilos III]

I always love when people try and make arguments for how "humans are above the animals."
We are animals, and we aren't even what I'd consider the most successful species on earth. Bacteria of many, MANY types still win out there.

Agree that we're animals, disagree that bacteria>humans.

When you can survive in the deep ocean or in a sulfur spring, I might agree :^)

[Yerachmeal]

Its weird to have "the US is a republic not a democracy" be a hill to fight over since those aren't mutually exclusive terms. Especially since both terms have a multitude of meanings depending on context.

Sure the US isn't a direct democracy, that doesn't mean it isn't a democracy.

They seem to just think "Democracy is when good, everything else is when bad" and never expand past that. So if you like the system and aren't an authoritarian, then it must be good :. Democracy.

If you read my posts, you'd see that I think federal republic is actually better than democracy. I think I even said that democracy is an insult the way some people use it.

[Mattopilos III]

They seem to just think "Democracy is when good, everything else is when bad" and never expand past that. So if you like the system and aren't an authoritarian, then it must be good :. Democracy.

If you read my posts, you'd see that I think federal republic is actually better than democracy. I think I even said that democracy is an insult the way some people use it.

I mean I use it as an insult, but the US is a democracy - it's just what we would call a representative democracy. It involves delegation of responsibility for tasks to representatives that are voted in by the people i.e. Demos (people) vote for representatives to make rules (cracy)

[Eahland]

What's a 2 round system?

You have a list of candidates the two candidates who place first and second place in the first round will go to the second round and then the voters pick one of those two.

For example:
First Round:
1st: Democrat
2nd: Republican
3rd: Libertarian
4th: Green

The Democrat and Republican go to the next round and then:
1st: Republican
2nd: Democrat

The Republican wins the election.

This is just a jungle primary, and those are awful.

Consider:
Republican: 20% of the vote
Republican: 20% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Libertarians: 2% of the vote
Greens: 1% of the vote

57% of the voters want a Democrat. Only 40% want a Republican. Yet the Republicans, by being slightly more organized, are able to lock everyone else out of the final round of the election.

We've seen this with California's jungle primaries, though the other way around, where the candidates for Senate have been a Democrat and a slightly more conservative Democrat, with everyone else locked out of the election entirely. And while you might say, whatever, it's California, the Democrat's going to win anyway... that above scenario can happen in California, where the Democrats have a large majority of the electorate's support, but the election only provides a choice between two Republicans.

[The Jamesian Republic]

You have a list of candidates the two candidates who place first and second place in the first round will go to the second round and then the voters pick one of those two.

For example:
First Round:
1st: Democrat
2nd: Republican
3rd: Libertarian
4th: Green

The Democrat and Republican go to the next round and then:
1st: Republican
2nd: Democrat

The Republican wins the election.

This is just a jungle primary, and those are awful.

Consider:
Republican: 20% of the vote
Republican: 20% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Libertarians: 2% of the vote
Greens: 1% of the vote

57% of the voters want a Democrat. Only 40% want a Republican. Yet the Republicans, by being slightly more organized, are able to lock everyone else out of the final round of the election.

We've seen this with California's jungle primaries, though the other way around, where the candidates for Senate have been a Democrat and a slightly more conservative Democrat, with everyone else locked out of the election entirely. And while you might say, whatever, it's California, the Democrat's going to win anyway... that above scenario can happen in California, where the Democrats have a large majority of the electorate's support, but the election only provides a choice between two Republicans.

Yikes. I didn’t think about that type of thing.

[Mattopilos III]

You have a list of candidates the two candidates who place first and second place in the first round will go to the second round and then the voters pick one of those two.

For example:
First Round:
1st: Democrat
2nd: Republican
3rd: Libertarian
4th: Green

The Democrat and Republican go to the next round and then:
1st: Republican
2nd: Democrat

The Republican wins the election.

This is just a jungle primary, and those are awful.

Consider:
Republican: 20% of the vote
Republican: 20% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Libertarians: 2% of the vote
Greens: 1% of the vote

57% of the voters want a Democrat. Only 40% want a Republican. Yet the Republicans, by being slightly more organized, are able to lock everyone else out of the final round of the election.

We've seen this with California's jungle primaries, though the other way around, where the candidates for Senate have been a Democrat and a slightly more conservative Democrat, with everyone else locked out of the election entirely. And while you might say, whatever, it's California, the Democrat's going to win anyway... that above scenario can happen in California, where the Democrats have a large majority of the electorate's support, but the election only provides a choice between two Republicans.

Then add in the fact they can get those numbers via gerrymandering so they can get sections with huge voting proportions, even if it means losing a few more areas with less of a margin... and that's how they get those higher proportions to push out other parties.

[Thermodolia]

I think there are other people who could give a better example. This is just my general understanding I could be wrong.

Well for comparison, in Australia we use a system where people put in preferences i.e. you put in 1-6 or whatever for which party you support, with 1 being your first pick, 2 being your second and so on.
The first preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not, the second preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not... you see where I'm going with it.
But it is still a two party system because we just happen to have two large parties that are analogous to the Democrats and Republicans here, with the most members, money, publicity, etc.

That’s because as I explained earlier only one state does it like Australia. The vast majority are most votes wins. Don’t have to get a majority except for four states. GA, MS, Maine, and AK

The other thing is that the primary system fucks a lot of people over

[Thermodolia]

You have a list of candidates the two candidates who place first and second place in the first round will go to the second round and then the voters pick one of those two.

For example:
First Round:
1st: Democrat
2nd: Republican
3rd: Libertarian
4th: Green

The Democrat and Republican go to the next round and then:
1st: Republican
2nd: Democrat

The Republican wins the election.

This is just a jungle primary, and those are awful.

Consider:
Republican: 20% of the vote
Republican: 20% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Libertarians: 2% of the vote
Greens: 1% of the vote

57% of the voters want a Democrat. Only 40% want a Republican. Yet the Republicans, by being slightly more organized, are able to lock everyone else out of the final round of the election.

We've seen this with California's jungle primaries, though the other way around, where the candidates for Senate have been a Democrat and a slightly more conservative Democrat, with everyone else locked out of the election entirely. And while you might say, whatever, it's California, the Democrat's going to win anyway... that above scenario can happen in California, where the Democrats have a large majority of the electorate's support, but the election only provides a choice between two Republicans.

Two round and jungle primary are similar but not the same. In Georgia you have a two round election during the primaries so you only have one candidate per party in the general and then you have two round again.

Jungle primary doesn’t have that

[Thermodolia]

This is just a jungle primary, and those are awful.

Consider:
Republican: 20% of the vote
Republican: 20% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Democrat: 19% of the vote
Libertarians: 2% of the vote
Greens: 1% of the vote

57% of the voters want a Democrat. Only 40% want a Republican. Yet the Republicans, by being slightly more organized, are able to lock everyone else out of the final round of the election.

We've seen this with California's jungle primaries, though the other way around, where the candidates for Senate have been a Democrat and a slightly more conservative Democrat, with everyone else locked out of the election entirely. And while you might say, whatever, it's California, the Democrat's going to win anyway... that above scenario can happen in California, where the Democrats have a large majority of the electorate's support, but the election only provides a choice between two Republicans.

Yikes. I didn’t think about that type of thing.

Two round is not the same as jungle primary

[The Jamesian Republic]

Yikes. I didn’t think about that type of thing.

Two round is not the same as jungle primary

Okay.

[Mattopilos III]

Well for comparison, in Australia we use a system where people put in preferences i.e. you put in 1-6 or whatever for which party you support, with 1 being your first pick, 2 being your second and so on.
The first preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not, the second preferences are counted, and if there is a majority, they win. If not... you see where I'm going with it.
But it is still a two party system because we just happen to have two large parties that are analogous to the Democrats and Republicans here, with the most members, money, publicity, etc.

That’s because as I explained earlier only one state does it like Australia. The vast majority are most votes wins. Don’t have to get a majority except for four states. GA, MS, Maine, and AK

The other thing is that the primary system fucks a lot of people over

Hey, a name I haven't heard in ages. Good to see you are still kicking around!
And yeah, we basically just use the Westminster system, because we are still cucked by the UK.

[The Snazzylands]

Dude. They are politicians. Of course they will lie, cheat and steal to their advantage.

Things would be much simpler if it was democrats good and republicans bad.

Don’t set on the notion we only need to protect ourselves from republicans. Sure; they are the current threat…..still you have to keep watch on the demos as well.

We don't need to watch for either party. Neither party is trying to rig the elections.

Especially as long as photo ID is required, it would be very hard to do so anyways; that's a side point. The point is, few politicians are as corrupt as you and a few others are saying they are.

Except for that one party that had 5 different candidates caught trying to submit fraudulent signatures to get on the state ballot lol
https://michiganadvance.com/2022/05/26/ ... d-scandal/

The candidate with the highest proportion of invalid signatures had 79%. This guy got less than 1/5 of the support he needed to run for governor, so he straight up faked the other 4/5 of the signatures and hoped no one would notice.

Thinking Republicans wouldn't rig elections if they had the chance is a naive view, at best.

[Thermodolia]

That’s because as I explained earlier only one state does it like Australia. The vast majority are most votes wins. Don’t have to get a majority except for four states. GA, MS, Maine, and AK

The other thing is that the primary system fucks a lot of people over

Hey, a name I haven't heard in ages. Good to see you are still kicking around!

Ya I’m still around. Haven’t left yet.

Though I don’t exactly remember who you are.

And yeah, we basically just use the Westminster system, because we are still cucked by the UK.

Fair

[Corrian]

That's so weird to me because both Masters and Lake are awful on like the same level but Lake might actually win? Lake winning would be a huge dampen on Kelly winning reelection though because Lake is gonna be terrible. I just don't get how you elect one nutjob statewide but defeat the other.

Kelly has raised a fuckton of money and has run a pretty safe, standard campaign. As an incumbent, he has also created some goodwill among enough Independents and Republicans to give him the advantage.

Hobbs, on the other hand, has run possibly the worst campaign I've seen in the last 14 or so years I've lived in this state. It's not just that she keeps avoiding debates (though that has hurt her too); but there are also plenty of well-publicized videos of her refusing to answer questions from voters, skirting the issues, and vomiting word-salad during the limited interviews she gives. It's created an image of her a a defensive, thin-skinned lightweight.

And that's unfortunate, because Hobbs has been a decent, if sometimes ineffectual, Secretary of State. But compare that to Lake, who is patently batshit, and Hobbs is way better on the merits.

That is unfortunate. This is a good time for Dems to take Arizona with their crazy and they ended up choosing a sloppy candidate for governor. Though choosing disappointing candidates seems to be a Arizona trend (Sinema)

[Corrian]

Meanwhile, the #1 issue for Americans is still the economy, and the last inflation report before the elections shows that inflation rose again from August to September. Are people going to care about Trump's subpoena when

Gas is up 18%, electricity is up 15%, groceries are up 13%, baby food up 12% and earnings are down 3%


I doubt it.

Inflation seemed to be going down for a bit and the same with gas prices, sucks shits going back up again. Bad timing, too. Wish people would just understand its all a weird situation right now. But nah, let's reelect the fascists into power, that'll fix the problems I'm sure. I get that stuff being important but our rights are slowly crumbling and we're just going to probably make it worse.

But hey, the fact this is even looking to be a very close midterm says something about the current environment.

[Corrian]

I'm most surprised the Ohio Senate Race is still even.

Florida and NC are also getting tighter. Republicans should be really worried.

And there’s a chance however slight that Abrams could be dragged across the finish line by Warnock voters

Florida I feel is safe Republican, NC I bet will be a tiny margin like always but go Republican. Ohio being close is just a shock. I have a feeling Warnock will win but Abrams will lose though.

[Yerachmeal]

If you read my posts, you'd see that I think federal republic is actually better than democracy. I think I even said that democracy is an insult the way some people use it.

I mean I use it as an insult, but the US is a democracy - it's just what we would call a representative democracy. It involves delegation of responsibility for tasks to representatives that are voted in by the people i.e. Demos (people) vote for representatives to make rules (cracy)

A representative democracy is electing representatives through popular vote.

[Mattopilos III]

I mean I use it as an insult, but the US is a democracy - it's just what we would call a representative democracy. It involves delegation of responsibility for tasks to representatives that are voted in by the people i.e. Demos (people) vote for representatives to make rules (cracy)

A representative democracy is electing representatives through popular vote.

Never said it was a good democracy.

[Yerachmeal]

A representative democracy is electing representatives through popular vote.

Never said it was a good democracy.

No, but when it's not popular vote that decides the president it's not a reresentative democracy, it's a federal republic. Like I posted before: https://byjus.com/free-ias-prep/differe ... g%20rights.

[Corrian]

Can't believe I ever pondered supporting Tulsi Gabbard.

[Thermodolia]

From the Arizona Republic - Kari Lake has the momentum.

Here in AZ, we're seeing an increasing likelihood that our Senate seat will stay blue, whereas our Governor's race will stay red. This is despite the fact that both GOP candidates are extreme, far-right election deniers and provocateurs. It's infuriating to see the AZ Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by allowing their gubernatorial candidate to make every strategic blunder possible.

I knew avoiding the debate was a bad idea. Plus she’s just been way too argumentative. I’m hoping that she’ll be dragged across the finish line

[Corrian]

From the Arizona Republic - Kari Lake has the momentum.

Here in AZ, we're seeing an increasing likelihood that our Senate seat will stay blue, whereas our Governor's race will stay red. This is despite the fact that both GOP candidates are extreme, far-right election deniers and provocateurs. It's infuriating to see the AZ Dems snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by allowing their gubernatorial candidate to make every strategic blunder possible.

I knew avoiding the debate was a bad idea. Plus she’s just been way too argumentative. I’m hoping that she’ll be dragged across the finish line

I don't know why she would choose to avoid the debate. That's things we should be letting Republicans dig their own graves with.

[Thermodolia]

Kelly has raised a fuckton of money and has run a pretty safe, standard campaign. As an incumbent, he has also created some goodwill among enough Independents and Republicans to give him the advantage.

Hobbs, on the other hand, has run possibly the worst campaign I've seen in the last 14 or so years I've lived in this state. It's not just that she keeps avoiding debates (though that has hurt her too); but there are also plenty of well-publicized videos of her refusing to answer questions from voters, skirting the issues, and vomiting word-salad during the limited interviews she gives. It's created an image of her a a defensive, thin-skinned lightweight.

And that's unfortunate, because Hobbs has been a decent, if sometimes ineffectual, Secretary of State. But compare that to Lake, who is patently batshit, and Hobbs is way better on the merits.

That is unfortunate. This is a good time for Dems to take Arizona with their crazy and they ended up choosing a sloppy candidate for governor. Though choosing disappointing candidates seems to be a Arizona trend (Sinema)

During the primaries she was doing great. It’s only been in the last few months that she’s slipped up.