Oder River in Poland Poisoned

[The Lone Alliance]

Well this really sucks, let's hope they can find out what exactly it was and that the damage isn't permanent.

No we simply remove all things toxic and whatever loses there are it’s acceptable.

Thanks for again proving why people do in fact need their "Weapons of War" because you never know when some tyrant might get some stupid idea of "I want to reduce mankind to huntering and gathering even if it means killing 80% of the population".

Stop thinking like the badguys from Rainbow Six.

[Fauzjhia]

Well this really sucks, let's hope they can find out what exactly it was and that the damage isn't permanent.

The Damage will last for a long time, if it is not permanent

[The Lone Alliance]

Well this really sucks, let's hope they can find out what exactly it was and that the damage isn't permanent.

The Damage will last for a long time, if it is not permanent

Oh I know it's a long time, it'll be years to recover, but one can hope that there are some fish and other animal life in some tributaries that survived so the waters can slowly recover, or if in worse case they can start importing replacement wildlife once the source is found and removed.

What's really confusing though is people still aren't sure what caused it in the first place, and if they can't find the source they can't find a way for it not to happen again. Some sources say it's Mercury but others are saying it might have just been high levels of salt.

But where did the salt come from? How does a river suddenly go from being freshwater to salt water and then back to fresh?

However in a way if it was a massive amount of salt concentration that means recovery will be far less than it would have been if it was mercury because once the salt is dilluted it means the water will be safe again.

But then that leads to example, who is dumping massive amounts of salt in the river?

[Fauzjhia]

The Damage will last for a long time, if it is not permanent

Oh I know it's a long time, it'll be years to recover, but one can hope that there are some fish and other animal life in some tributaries that survived so the waters can slowly recover, or if in worse case they can start importing replacement wildlife once the source is found and removed.

What's really confusing though is people still aren't sure what caused it in the first place, and if they can't find the source they can't find a way for it not to happen again. Some sources say it's Mercury but others are saying it might have just been high levels of salt.

But where did the salt come from? How does a river suddenly go from being freshwater to salt water and then back to fresh?

naw we don't know what's the toxic is.
but its not mercury, nor any toxic metal (arsenic, and etc.)

that's they have noted, high level of salt... but as long as we don't know the cause, we are in the dark.

Edit : they did not found toxins
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -ruled-out
if we can trust polish scientists.


Dunno. maybe an industrial dumb an heavy amount of salt in the river. thinking they could get away with it. That Salt must come from somewhere, it does not appear like magic.

[The North Polish Union]

1.) Is that really the case? English Wikipedia gives all sorts of examples of legislation and movements from the late 1800s. If anything it would only post-date Marx by a few decades at most.

2.) How is it off-topic? You suggest that capitalism and religion "see the environment and resources are nothing then tool that are supposed to serve the goals of mankind". Soviet Union and PRC reject both capitalism and religion, yet were/are huge polluters.

3.) This is almost a good point. Certainly much industry has been sent to China. Perhaps if China had regulations and higher pay it would be another country. But why is it that China in particular lacks such things? It cannot be either capitalism or religion since they repudiate both, so what is it?

4.) "Whether Chinese are real communists" is not a discussion I am interested in having, as are all such discussions motivated by left-wing purity-testing. The fact of the mater is that the Soviets and Chinese are/were neither capitalists nor clergy, and yet they continue to cause great destruction to the planet.

--

You have yet to provide any reasoning that capitalism (I'll admit I also care very little about arguing this, it's not necessarily an inaccurate claim) and particularly religion (the claim I would find much more interesting to discuss) are responsible for lack of care for the environment. The realty is that many movements who described and continue to describe themselves as various varieites of socialism and communism wrecked and are wrecking their environments. I have yet to see any major religion support dumping waste from nickel mining in farm fields, much less doing it.

1 I mean, in the history of humanity, environmentalist is kinda new, compared to other ideology and never really have close to power.

2 religion has taught us that mankind is the center of our planet, and has the right to do what ever it want with the planet resources and other species. This is called Anthropocentrism, its opposite would teaching that mankind is just 1 part of life (hence is not allowed to do what ever it want with other species, aka Biocentrism). Anthropocentrism is still dominant in our world, even today. (heck, before Machiavelli, religion did not care about Tyrannic regime, because it teached that it was useless to govern the earth..)

3 China is a very hypocrite government, it support (communism), only for the party, meanwhile the rest of population is ignored. Its constitution is Platonist, it literally say, the population being too idiot, the communist party shall lead them for their own good. The Left hardly support such a government
no mentioning that Plato ideology of having those with knowledge lead the population was meant for Philosophers, people who search for the truth(scientists), and not people who pretend to know to truth (religion and etc.)

4 heum no. Because you speak to us (leftists) about model of governments we do not envision, nether support. Maybe its because you still believe in capitalism. I really don't, businesses has proven themselves to be not more intelligent then a child or a kid, if they are not punished by a government, they won't really make any effort to protect the environment or to reduce their footprint.
I've always been saying that we need a government that does its job, and in our capitalism system, our government are not often doing their job of regulating businesses/human activities, seem they prefer hurting those who can be hurt.

1.) By that reasoning so is left-wing political thought. Sure there are proto-communists that are sometimes pointed to, but the same can be done for proto-environmentalists.

2.) I don't know if the claim that "religion has taught us that mankind is the center of our planet, and has the right to do what ever it want with the planet resources and other species" is true. I don't know lot about East Asian religions or most pagan religions, but the major Abrahamic religions all ackowledge that God is the center of not only the planet but the rest of the universe. Individual members of these religions may not always act as though that were true, but acting on the principles of anthropocentrism is far from unique to religious people, since the irreligious engage in it all the time as well.

3.) I agree that China is hypocritical.

4.) This is actually the most interesting point here. I generally do not believe in/support under-regulated capitalism, being economically more distributist, but in Poland I have to admit that the governments of the last 30 years have done a much better job of regulating businesses/human activities to benefit the environment than the previous anti-capitalist irreligious government did. This incident with the Odra is a serious setback, but the perpetrator has yet to be identified, and hopefully the government will do its job and hold them responsible. But on the average, we do much better than we did under communism when our soils were so contaminated that the wheat we grew to make bread had things like lead and cadmium in it.

Well this really sucks, let's hope they can find out what exactly it was and that the damage isn't permanent.

PM Morawiecki said the river will take years to recover (and this time I do have an English source)

[The North Polish Union]

The Damage will last for a long time, if it is not permanent

Oh I know it's a long time, it'll be years to recover, but one can hope that there are some fish and other animal life in some tributaries that survived so the waters can slowly recover, or if in worse case they can start importing replacement wildlife once the source is found and removed.

What's really confusing though is people still aren't sure what caused it in the first place, and if they can't find the source they can't find a way for it not to happen again. Some sources say it's Mercury but others are saying it might have just been high levels of salt.

But where did the salt come from? How does a river suddenly go from being freshwater to salt water and then back to fresh?

However in a way if it was a massive amount of salt concentration that means recovery will be far less than it would have been if it was mercury because once the salt is dilluted it means the water will be safe again.

But then that leads to example, who is dumping massive amounts of salt in the river?

The suspicion that it was Hg came from a German lab, whose results nobody else has been able to replicate and the lab itself has since said that they now think the result was probably wrong.

Salt is used in some industrial applications, but since the area where the problem seems to start is a heavy mining region, it could be that the salt was mining waste.

[The Lone Alliance]

The suspicion that it was Hg came from a German lab, whose results nobody else has been able to replicate and the lab itself has since said that they now think the result was probably wrong.
Salt is used in some industrial applications, but since the area where the problem seems to start is a heavy mining region, it could be that the salt was mining waste.

Yes Salt run off from mining could have done it too, could explain some of the heavy metals as well.

The climate conditions in Europe likely hasn't helped either, really it could be a combination of factors that all hit at the same time in that part of the river at once. Could explain the problems with finding the source and replicating it, it's not one single source just a perfect soup of conditions that hit that part of the river.

[Fauzjhia]

Oh I know it's a long time, it'll be years to recover, but one can hope that there are some fish and other animal life in some tributaries that survived so the waters can slowly recover, or if in worse case they can start importing replacement wildlife once the source is found and removed.

What's really confusing though is people still aren't sure what caused it in the first place, and if they can't find the source they can't find a way for it not to happen again. Some sources say it's Mercury but others are saying it might have just been high levels of salt.

But where did the salt come from? How does a river suddenly go from being freshwater to salt water and then back to fresh?

However in a way if it was a massive amount of salt concentration that means recovery will be far less than it would have been if it was mercury because once the salt is dilluted it means the water will be safe again.

But then that leads to example, who is dumping massive amounts of salt in the river?

The suspicion that it was Hg came from a German lab, whose results nobody else has been able to replicate and the lab itself has since said that they now think the result was probably wrong.

Salt is used in some industrial applications, but since the area where the problem seems to start is a heavy mining region, it could be that the salt was mining waste.

mining being dumped in the river, as a way to not pay for its disposal. its a possibility
and honestly. Anthropo-centrism is very ancient way to view the world. it predate our capitalism economics system
Maybe its because the communists parties never did their job of dismantling social classes, instead concentrating them into a single one where business and politics where mixed/fused. There are plenty of analysis on (why the revolution did not work). its clear to me, we never reached the classless state.
once again, I lived in Quebec, / North America

[Ethel mermania]

The suspicion that it was Hg came from a German lab, whose results nobody else has been able to replicate and the lab itself has since said that they now think the result was probably wrong.

Salt is used in some industrial applications, but since the area where the problem seems to start is a heavy mining region, it could be that the salt was mining waste.

mining being dumped in the river, as a way to not pay for its disposal. its a possibility
and honestly. Anthropo-centrism is very ancient way to view the world. it predate our capitalism economics system
Maybe its because the communists parties never did their job of dismantling social classes, instead concentrating them into a single one where business and politics where mixed/fused. There are plenty of analysis on (why the revolution did not work). its clear to me, we never reached the classless state.
once again, I lived in Quebec, / North America

You are aware the black triangle was a communist invention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region)

[Fauzjhia]

mining being dumped in the river, as a way to not pay for its disposal. its a possibility
and honestly. Anthropo-centrism is very ancient way to view the world. it predate our capitalism economics system
Maybe its because the communists parties never did their job of dismantling social classes, instead concentrating them into a single one where business and politics where mixed/fused. There are plenty of analysis on (why the revolution did not work). its clear to me, we never reached the classless state.
once again, I lived in Quebec, / North America

You are aware the black triangle was a communist invention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region)

this again.....
right-winger and anti-communists are always quick to criticize any who make any mention of (communism) but refuse to even study or learn about theory.
this get very tiresome, I should not always have to remind you that the Soviet and their allies did not reach communism.
it could easily be created in 3 banana republics who does not have a goverment to control businesses (who do not care a bit about ecology)

also. can we stay on topic, that's the River poisoning, and not communist theory.

[Ethel mermania]

You are aware the black triangle was a communist invention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Triangle_(region)

this again.....
right-winger and anti-communists are always quick to criticize any who make any mention of (communism) but refuse to even study or learn about theory.
this get very tiresome, I should not always have to remind you that the Soviet and their allies did not reach communism.
it could easily be created in 3 banana republics who does not have a goverment to control businesses (who do not care a bit about ecology)

also. can we stay on topic, that's the River poisoning, and not communist theory.

Then why did you bring it up?
If you are going to blame capitalism it is relevant to note when under communist control, this kind of release was routine.

I find it tiresome when western liberals think they know what communism is better than, Marx, lennin or stalin.

[Thermodolia]

Then fucking stop saying that humans are a cancer.

They are the most dangerous animal on the planet and a toxin to the Earth. How about that?

We aren’t killing the earth, if anything we are killing ourselves. The earth will continue with or without us. It doesn’t care about us, it can survive without us.

We aren’t killing the earth, we are killing ourselves and setting our own homes on fire

[Thermodolia]

So now you're going on the whole Neo-Luddite arc now it appears. Have fun with that, meanwhile us actual environmentalists will be trying to solve the problem without population control.

Greenwashing Is horrible. Our population IS unsustainable! We need less people!

The problem isn’t the amount of people, the problem is how resources are managed.

Theoretically we could fit the whole of humanity into a space the size of Texas if we used the resource known as land efficiently.

The problem is that we don’t use land or any resource efficiently and therefore we cause problems.

[San Lumen]

They are the most dangerous animal on the planet and a toxin to the Earth. How about that?

We aren’t killing the earth, if anything we are killing ourselves. The earth will continue with or without us. It doesn’t care about us, it can survive without us.

We aren’t killing the earth, we are killing ourselves and setting our own homes on fire

And destroying entire species and ecosystems in the process.

[Sauros]

They are the most dangerous animal on the planet and a toxin to the Earth. How about that?

Nah fam, bobbit worms innit

Eh, I'm not so sure....
Have you ever heard of a Cassowary?

[Fauzjhia]

this again.....
right-winger and anti-communists are always quick to criticize any who make any mention of (communism) but refuse to even study or learn about theory.
this get very tiresome, I should not always have to remind you that the Soviet and their allies did not reach communism.
it could easily be created in 3 banana republics who does not have a goverment to control businesses (who do not care a bit about ecology)

also. can we stay on topic, that's the River poisoning, and not communist theory.

Then why did you bring it up?
If you are going to blame capitalism it is relevant to note when under communist control, this kind of release was routine.

I find it tiresome when western liberals think they know what communism is better than, Marx, lennin or stalin.

You are wrong. We follow and read Marx. but Lennin and Stalin did not contribute to communist theory, they are only to be associated with (platonic communist) Claiming to be the Illuminati who shall lead the ignorant masses to communism with socialism. They never even reach communist, if you knew about trotsky's theory or about modern Gramscian Theory, you would know what I mean by that.
as once said, in human science, we will not reach the truth. And therefor no theory can be permanently correct, the theories need to evolve.

2 Double-Fault Sophism : Its not because someone else is doing worst offense then yours, that your offense becomes right, they are still WRONG.

Greenwashing Is horrible. Our population IS unsustainable! We need less people!

The problem isn’t the amount of people, the problem is how resources are managed.

Theoretically we could fit the whole of humanity into a space the size of Texas if we used the resource known as land efficiently.

The problem is that we don’t use land or any resource efficiently and therefore we cause problems.

I find that rather extreme, I mean, Texas is a not exactly a very bid state. its not small, but 8 billion of human in there ?
you don't think its a bit extreme.
I do agree with what you say.
This is why we need to teach tragedy of commons, (which was deformed into a critic of communism.) because it show us that we cannot leave resource management to capitalists actors only, they will prefer to complete with each others rather then managing the resources.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

I find that rather extreme, I mean, Texas is a not exactly a very bid state. its not small, but 8 billion of human in there ?

the population density would be 29,664/mi², so the population density would be somewhere between Singapore and Monaco, just above New York City's. if it were a country, it would be the third most densely populated, behind Macau and Monaco.

[Fauzjhia]

I find that rather extreme, I mean, Texas is a not exactly a very bid state. its not small, but 8 billion of human in there ?

the population density would be 29,664/mi², so the population density would be somewhere between Singapore and Monaco, just above New York City's. if it were a country, it would be the third most densely populated, behind Macau and Monaco.

Ok. I am wrong
I shall stay quiet here.

[Risottia]

And why population control should "look bad"?

Yeah, what could possibly look bad about people having their reproductive choices made for them?

The amount of births affects everyone.

[James_xenoland]

Could this be a result of drought maybe? Not just lower water levels and concentration but even more directly given what it empties into. They test sodium chloride levels?

I see that the thread is devolving into 'OMG humans/civilization bad' wankery.. shame. sigh

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

the population density would be 29,664/mi², so the population density would be somewhere between Singapore and Monaco, just above New York City's. if it were a country, it would be the third most densely populated, behind Macau and Monaco.

Ok. I am wrong
I shall stay quiet here.

the problem isn’t necessarily fitting 8 billion humans in there, it would probably be feeding and supplying all of them. even with modern techniques, it would be tricky to find enough space.

[Haganham]

Yeah, what could possibly look bad about people having their reproductive choices made for them?

The amount of births affects everyone.

Not really. You'd have to have an absolute shitload of people to mtch the impact of just one of the uberrich.

[Rusozak]

So anyways...

Have they been able to determine if this is reckless waste dumping or a deliberate act to poison the river?

[Fartsniffage]

So anyways...

Have they been able to determine if this is reckless waste dumping or a deliberate act to poison the river?

They don't even know what caused it yet.

[Ifreann]

Yeah, what could possibly look bad about people having their reproductive choices made for them?

The amount of births affects everyone.

So I guess you do understand what looks bad about it, but it seems like you think it's justified despite that to people to lose control of their own reproductive choices.