The Ukrainian War IV: "And von Moltke Laughed ..."

[Picairn]

Polish investigators have established that a Ukrainian air defense missile fell in Przewodow, President Duda said.

That seals the deal, I think.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The entire pro-Ukraine side, in this thread and elsewhere, has done nothing but make hamfisted comparisons of everything about Putin, United Russia, etc. with the Third Reich.

I have not done that once. Comparisons can be useful. However, they can only be performed after each element has been carefully analyzed for its particular characteristics. I expect that this subject will be tackled by historians. (If it has been already, I am not aware of it.)

[The Huskar Social Union]

Oh don't play coy. The entire pro-Ukraine side, in this thread and elsewhere, has done nothing but make hamfisted comparisons of everything about Putin, United Russia, etc. with the Third Reich. Even the invention of the term "Rascism" is just another attempt to insist Russia is being led by something akin to the NSDAP. It's actually fucking gross--a smidge bit ironic--considering how much of the people saying this are often the same people who claim Leftists use the term "Fascist" too loosely. Who the fuck do you think you're trying to fool here?

Ive literally never done this.

[Utquiagvik]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comm ... ame=iossmf
Britain has announced that Russia is likely removing nuclear warheads from missiles and firing the missiles at Ukraine.

[Union of Austrelia]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/z51a55/britain_says_russia_likely_removing_nuclear/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Britain has announced that Russia is likely removing nuclear warheads from missiles and firing the missiles at Ukraine.

Russia is one engineer-has-a-sleepless-night away from accidentally bathing Kiev in nuclear hellfire.

[Picairn]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/z51a55/britain_says_russia_likely_removing_nuclear/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Britain has announced that Russia is likely removing nuclear warheads from missiles and firing the missiles at Ukraine.

Yeah they are putting dummy warheads on Kh-55s and fire them into Ukraine. Not as effective as conventional warheads, but they can't be loaded on nuclear missiles without special reconfigurations.

[Perikuresu]

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/z51a55/britain_says_russia_likely_removing_nuclear/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Britain has announced that Russia is likely removing nuclear warheads from missiles and firing the missiles at Ukraine.

as I've said before, either this is Russia desperate for more missile or this seems like foreshadowing as subtle as the suspicious dude actually being evil trope

[Betoni]

Your earlier post was about how you were not certain about the genocide claims by the western media and that post consisted of going Putin isn't literally Hitler and United Russia isn't really literally the NSDAP. Why would you go out of your way to post that? You thought someone in this thread was under the mistaken belief that Putin was Hitler reincarnate and Russia was re-enacting the Holocaust but on Ukrainians and you wanted to post in defence of Russia and correct these assumptions? Or you just decided to add that wisdom to the thread randomly, as a fun factoid? How was I supposed to read that, if not as a defence of Russia, when the context is the thread about Russian invasion of Ukraine and them conducting genocide and you go "well they are not actually as bad as Nazis"?

Oh don't play coy. The entire pro-Ukraine side, in this thread and elsewhere, has done nothing but make hamfisted comparisons of everything about Putin, United Russia, etc. with the Third Reich. Even the invention of the term "Rascism" is just another attempt to insist Russia is being led by something akin to the NSDAP. It's actually fucking gross--a smidge bit ironic--considering how much of the people saying this are often the same people who claim Leftists use the term "Fascist" too loosely. Who the fuck do you think you're trying to fool here?

Never mind that this whole "it's not literally the Holocaust" spiel you went on is a complete strawman. I was using the Nazis as an example of genocide, not as the basis for which all genocides should be judged - that was an invention of your own mind.

You should probably quote the specific posts doing that when countering said posts. Its one of the tell tale signs of a strawman when you have to go to general you and people outside this thread. Thus from the very start your post reads as Russia apologia, strawmanning and whataboutism.

Your dance on the precipice of genocide denial is ludicrous no matter what specific genocide you decide at the moment to make the yard stick to measure which instance fits your personal feelings of what constitutes genocide. It's in fact extremely fucking gross considering there might well be people living in Ukraine at the moment who are reading this very thread. But sure, we should probably be more concerned how some people somewhere, who you've failed to quote, are comparing, mind you comparing, what Russia is doing to what the Nazis did. I for one have never used the term Rascism or implied that Russia is even close to what Nazi Germany was. I consider myself at least anti Russian with regards this war if not whole heartedly pro-Ukraine if such labels even make sense. So there goes you're ridiculous claims of everyone who disagrees with you is going "Russia is literally Hitler". And this is how people are interpreting your posts as Russia apologism. I don't think you are an idiot so I must conclude you are doing this deliberately, either to provoke people or because you are being a Russia apologist but not willing to admit to it.

[New Georgia and the North Pacific]

Balloon debate 2. I vote for Sordhau to get thrown off.

[Ifreann]

Balloon debate 2. I vote for Sordhau to get thrown off.

I vote that you stop trying to make 'fetch' happen.

[Sordhau]

The entire pro-Ukraine side, in this thread and elsewhere, has done nothing but make hamfisted comparisons of everything about Putin, United Russia, etc. with the Third Reich.

I have not done that once. Comparisons can be useful. However, they can only be performed after each element has been carefully analyzed for its particular characteristics. I expect that this subject will be tackled by historians. (If it has been already, I am not aware of it.)

Oh don't play coy. The entire pro-Ukraine side, in this thread and elsewhere, has done nothing but make hamfisted comparisons of everything about Putin, United Russia, etc. with the Third Reich. Even the invention of the term "Rascism" is just another attempt to insist Russia is being led by something akin to the NSDAP. It's actually fucking gross--a smidge bit ironic--considering how much of the people saying this are often the same people who claim Leftists use the term "Fascist" too loosely. Who the fuck do you think you're trying to fool here?

Ive literally never done this.

Looking back I over-exaggerated, my apologies. I was a bit irritated when I posted that.

But then, Picairn is still the most neutral person here. And also a great source of news and analysis which is partially the reason I'm still here despite the shitfuckery.

Picairn is the most neutral person here? Ahaha, what a joke.

I am the most neutral person here.

Careful not to trip on your own ego lmao.

To be fair to Jenny, unlike a few other deniziens of this thread (no, I will not call out names), she has stuck to her argument: USSR good, modern Russia bad, Putin worse, sanctions affect the poor workers and not the elites thus sanctions bad, NATO bad on principle, plus a few other points. While I do not agree with her on a few points, I think, we should stop lumping her in with other people committed to faux-neutrality.

^

Imo, from lurking on the Ukraine threads the past few months, it feels heavily disingenuous to just lump Sordhau with the Pro-Russian supporters. If I had a really charitable view (and I stress that) she's shown herself to be probably more neutral on the issue than some of us regardless if they're Pro Ukrainian or Pro Russian.

But then, Picairn is still the most neutral person here. And also a great source of news and analysis which is partially the reason I'm still here despite the shitfuckery.

While I appreciate the support from both of you, I wouldn't call myself "neutral" so much as "nuanced".

I stand with the Ukrainian people in their fight against Russian imperialism and am outraged by the crimes against them, but I won't hold my tongue when criticizing it's government or supporters (governments, individuals, organizations) in the West because I take issue with the corruption and exploitation of the former and the hypocrisy of the latter. This isn't an endorsement of the Russian government by any metric, nor is it apologia. I hold the Russian government with generally the same level of contempt. Why I don't denounce it as often as Western governments is simply because we already know the Russian government is vile and it doesn't really mean anything to say so. But even for people who know how disgusting Western governments are--especially the US--this is often being overlooked just because we're supporting Ukraine. I don't think NATO governments or NATO itself should have their own myriad crimes and abuses swept under the rug or downplayed just because we happen to be on the right side this time. To me NATO is still a villain at large as bad if not worse than Russia, just not in this particular instance.

There is also the overwhelming support throughout the West for Ukraine, which produces mixed feelings from me. On the one hand I love how inspiring it is; actual solidarity almost nationwide with a foreign people struggling against imperialism. It's actually a very rare thing and I welcome it. What I hate is the selectivity of it. Why do Ukrainians get this but, by comparison, Armenians don't? Armenia: a country on the verge of being invaded by a militant neighbor that has for years been teaching it's children that Armenians aren't human, that the land they live on is stolen, and that they should all be killed. Azerbaijan is getting direct support from Israel, indirect support from the EU buying Azeri gas, and lukewarm opposition from the US with Pelosi harping on about the "standing with democracy" to a population that veers closer to an Armenian Genocide 2.0 while people in the West have practically forgotten about this conflict entirely - if they even know about it at all!

That upsets me. The West was always going to support Ukraine of course, yet individual Westerners have done quite a lot to help the war effort there and have shown they can even influence their governments to get things done - proving once again that the people are the ones with the true power. Yet this Armenia doesn't get this support. The Uyghurs don't get this show of solidarity. Taiwan doesn't get even a fraction of the support that Ukraine does. Nor the Kurds, Assyrians, or allies under threat of Turkish imperialism and Syrian Ba'athist repression. Even the protests in Iran are only getting nominal support from Westerners. It seems to me then that Westerners--not just their governments, but as individuals and organizations as well--are playing favorites. I hate that immensely. Westerners can do more, and we should be doing more, to help the oppressed peoples of the world. Yet apparently we're only willing to do more than send thoughts and prayers when the oppressed people are in Europe.

I don't think you are an idiot so I must conclude you are doing this deliberately, either to provoke people or because you are being a Russia apologist but not willing to admit to it.

Or maybe I'm just not very good with words and have a tendency to react without thinking at times? Both are true and I'll admit those faults.

But I'm not a troll, and I'm not an apologist.

[Utquiagvik]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... dies-at-64
Vladimir Makei, Foreign Minister of Belarus, died at the age of 64 today. Currently, no cause of death has been reported.

[Picairn]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-26/belarus-top-diplomat-ally-to-president-dies-at-64
Vladimir Makei, Foreign Minister of Belarus, died at the age of 64 today. Currently, no cause of death has been reported.

That's a very sudden death, he was present at the CSTO meeting in Yerevan 3 days ago.

[Kazak Yeli]

Picairn is the most neutral person here? Ahaha, what a joke.

I am the most neutral person here.

Careful not to trip on your own ego lmao.

I have gone to bat for you in this thread more times than I can count, when these people throw unfounded allegations of pro-Russian sentiment at you. We are on the same side.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-26/belarus-top-diplomat-ally-to-president-dies-at-64
Vladimir Makei, Foreign Minister of Belarus, died at the age of 64 today. Currently, no cause of death has been reported.

Lukashenko will allege a plot orchestrated by Ukraine and/or NATO.

[Gravlen]

It really isn't hard to understand.

Forced relocation or kidnapping of children is most likely genocide.

Targeted killings of suspected informants, political enemies and POWs is not genocide.

This makes no sense. "Political enemies" can easily be one of the four protected groups.

In Rwanda, for example, the Tutsi were killed on a large scale based on the grounds of ethnicity, for political reasons.

Power was of great importance to the Hutu elite. Power blinded them so much that they believed took to a systematic extinction of a people as a tool to maintain that power. [sic]

The Tutsi were percieved as the political enemies of the Hutu, and that led to the government (lead by extremists of the ethnic Hutu majority) carrying out an extermination campaign against the Tutsi population.

Trying to argue that targeted killings of political enemies categorically cannot be genocide is failing to understand what actually constitutes a genocide.

[Picairn]

Lukashenko will allege a plot orchestrated by Ukraine and/or NATO.

Does anyone believe what Lukashenko pulls out of his ass?

[Betoni]

I don't think you are an idiot so I must conclude you are doing this deliberately, either to provoke people or because you are being a Russia apologist but not willing to admit to it.

Or maybe I'm just not very good with words and have a tendency to react without thinking at times? Both are true and I'll admit those faults.

But I'm not a troll, and I'm not an apologist.

Ok, fair enough. We've all been there. And the way I post sometimes can tick people off so I supposes it completely natural.

[Kazak Yeli]

Lukashenko will allege a plot orchestrated by Ukraine and/or NATO.

Does anyone believe what Lukashenko pulls out of his ass?

No, nobody does. His stream-of-consciousness monologues even embarrass Putin.

Trying to argue that targeted killings of political enemies categorically cannot be genocide is failing to understand what actually constitutes a genocide.

I'm not saying it cannot be genocide. It can, obviously, in examples such as the one you provided.

But I'm saying that the Bucha massacre, for example, was not a genocide, or an attempt of genocide. If it was, they would've razed the whole town and attempted to murder everyone, instead of just people on the list given to them by the intelligence service.

[Picairn]

Passchendaele 1917 Bakhmut 2022.

[Kazak Yeli]

Passchendaele 1917 Bakhmut 2022.

I suppose the intensity of fighting is due to Bakhmut's location at the intersection of several major roads.

[Gravlen]

Does anyone believe what Lukashenko pulls out of his ass?

No, nobody does. His stream-of-consciousness monologues even embarrass Putin.

Trying to argue that targeted killings of political enemies categorically cannot be genocide is failing to understand what actually constitutes a genocide.

I'm not saying it cannot be genocide. It can, obviously, in examples such as the one you provided.

But I'm saying that the Bucha massacre, for example, was not a genocide, or an attempt of genocide. If it was, they would've razed the whole town and attempted to murder everyone, instead of just people on the list given to them by the intelligence service.

Again, this makes no sense. Just because they could have committed more acts of genocide doesn't mean that the genocidal acts they carried out weren't genocide.

This just betrays a fundamental lack of understanding for what genocide is on your part. For some reason, you seem to think that it is a requirement that it needs to be the very worst it could be in order to be classified as genocide. That obviously isn't the case. Whether the genocidal attacker kills one single person in a village of 100, or kills 50, or kills all 100, it's all still genocide.

The definition, you may recall:

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Note that it does not say "Killing all members of the group as quickly as possible, with no exceptions". Killing any member is sufficient.

Nazi Germany didn't raze the whole Warsaw ghetto - at first. It was established in November 1940 as a place to keep and contain jews. Murders did take place, but it was not until after the Wannsee-conference in January 1942 that the implementation of the Final Solution to the Jewish Question was initiated. All of the jews in the Warsaw ghetto were to be exterminated. However, the jews were not simply slaughtered in the streets of Warsaw. Instead, mass deportations started in the summer of 1942. The deportations continued until the uprising in January 1943, after which the Germans did raze the ghetto.

However, it is clear that when you're looking at the end of 1942 that a genocide was ongoing in the Warsaw ghetto. Denying that the genocide was going on beause the Germans could have done worse, or killed everyone faster, is a nonsensical argument.

[Picairn]

U.S. and NATO Scramble to Arm Ukraine and Refill Their Own Arsenals

Same old story: the West is scrambling to refill weapon stockpiles and ammunition reserves by increasing production capacities and purchasing ammunition from South Korea to backfill the stocks (it's real). Russia is doing the same with domestic production and buying drones from Iran & ammunition from North Korea.

Other nuggets:

Last summer in the Donbas region, the Ukrainians were firing 6,000 to 7,000 artillery rounds each day, a senior NATO official said. The Russians were firing 40,000 to 50,000 rounds per day.

Ukraine has also proved adaptable. Its forces are known inside NATO as “the MacGyver Army,” a reference to an old television series in which the hero is inventive and improvisational with whatever comes to hand.

To shell Russian positions at Snake Island, for instance, the Ukrainians put Caesars, with a 40-kilometer range, on barges and towed them out 10 kilometers to hit the island, which was 50 kilometers away, astonishing the French.

[Juristonia]

I have gone to bat for you in this thread more times than I can count, when these people throw unfounded allegations of pro-Russian sentiment at you. We are on the same side.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I disagree with quite a few things she's posted in here, but if you think she should be thankful of your help, of all people, saying you have a big ego is being incredibly polite in the mildest way possible.

[Picairn]

I have gone to bat for you in this thread more times than I can count, when these people throw unfounded allegations of pro-Russian sentiment at you. We are on the same side.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I disagree with quite a few things she's posted in here, but if you think she should be thankful of your help, of all people, saying you have a big ego is being incredibly polite in the mildest way possible.

The level of brazen narcissism to claim someone needs to be grateful for your "help", when that someone has never asked for your backing smh.

[Kazak Yeli]

I have gone to bat for you in this thread more times than I can count, when these people throw unfounded allegations of pro-Russian sentiment at you. We are on the same side.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

I disagree with quite a few things she's posted in here, but if you think she should be thankful of your help, of all people, saying you have a big ego is being incredibly polite in the mildest way possible.

Why?

I disagree with quite a few things she's posted in here, but if you think she should be thankful of your help, of all people, saying you have a big ego is being incredibly polite in the mildest way possible.

The level of brazen narcissism to claim someone needs to be grateful for your "help", when that someone has never asked for your backing smh.

Nobody else in this thread has been subject to the amount of slander and hatred that I have. This is unjust.