by Farnhamia » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:32 pm
by The Jamesian Republic » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:33 pm
by Farnhamia » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:34 pm
The Jamesian Republic wrote:First.
by Vistulange » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:37 pm
by Port Caverton » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:38 pm
by The Jamesian Republic » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:06 pm
by Vadterland » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:09 pm
by Ostroeuropa » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:25 pm
by The Two Jerseys » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:26 pm
Vadterland wrote:What the hell are the Russians putting in their cigarettes? Whatever's in them, it's strong enough to wipe out an air force base and I want some.
by Gallia- » Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:39 pm
Why does Russia and Ukraine both have more 40 year olds than either 50 or 20 year olds?
Why do they have more 80 year olds than 70 year olds?
Why do they both have more 10 year olds than 18 year olds?
The answer, is
The war killed, for example, 3 out of every 4 soviet males born in 1923.
Its casualties were heavily concentrated in a particular age group and demographic, and by your own evidence we can directly see the impact.
by Picairn » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:18 pm
I was sat around a table with Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s Senior Crisis researcher predicting their upcoming report would land like a lead balloon. We were in the kitchen of our hotel in Kramatorsk, the administrative capital of Ukrainian controlled Donetsk and we could hear the boom of artillery outside our windows every hour.
Rather than expressing shock at the relentless Russian bombardment, the Amnesty staff seemed much more concerned with the fact that a Ukrainian army unit had taken refuge in the basement of a college building.
We’d all been to the building: an abandoned language school in the frontline town of Bakhmut which had been turned into a temporary barracks for a Ukrainian unit. This is not a war crime. A military is perfectly entitled to set up in an evacuated educational institution, although of course that building can no longer claim civilian protection and there was a mainly abandoned civilian apartment block over the road, which had not been fully evacuated.
But Rovera was insistent that this military presence in a populated area was a “violation of international humanitarian law”’. When I pressed her on how the Ukrainian Army was supposed to defend a populated area, she said that it was irrelevant.
By that logic, I continued, Ukraine would have to abandon the major locations such as the city of Kharkiv. “Well, they must avoid as far as possible taking positions in a populated area,” she replied. “International humanitarian law is very clear on this.”
I suggested her coming Amnesty International report would be received badly if it failed to differentiate between defensive and offensive operations in urban areas. But it appeared the authors’ minds had been made up: Ukraine was endangering its own civilians by the mere act of attempting to defend its cities.
[...] I was in one of the locations mentioned in the Amnesty report, a school block in the under-fire city of Lysychansk, with Ukrainian soldiers as they offered an evacuation ride to any civilian residents who wished to leave. Three did, and we traveled with them as we returned to safer locations. I had reported this all at the time.
“The Russians are right over there, and they’re closing in on this location,” Mark Poppert, an American volunteer working with British charity RefugEase, said during an evacuation in the town of Bakhmut on Friday.
“Bakhmut is a high-risk area right now,” he said. “We’re trying to get as many people out as we can in case the Ukrainians have to fall back.”
He and other Ukrainian and foreign volunteers working with the Ukrainian charity Vostok SOS, which was coordinating the evacuation effort, were hoping to get about 100 people out of Bakhmut on Friday, Poppert said.
[...] Most people have already fled Bakhmut: only around 30,000 remain from a pre-war population of 85,000. And more are leaving each day.
We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas.
In fact, it is generally recognized that the defender’s obligations do not create individual criminal liability.
A current imbalance in individual criminal responsibility exists, where an attacker can commit a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions in at least five different ways, but the defender who is in the best position to protect civilians in urban environments faces no such liability.
It is important to underline that a party is not required to evacuate civilians or civilian objects from any built-up area as such, but only to remove them from the vicinity of military objectives.
A defending party may go further and evacuate civilians in accordance with Article 17 of the Fourth Geneva Convention—a point reinforced by the reference to Article 49 of the Convention made in Article 58(a)—but it is not obliged to do so.
Article 58(b) directs the parties to avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. At the diplomatic conference, several states voiced concerns that this obligation could curtail their right to take the most efficient measures necessary for the defence of their national territory. Since the precautionary duties under Article 58 apply only to the maximum extent feasible, France suggested in the case of densely populated territories such as those of metropolitan France, Article 58(b) “could not really become operative” at all (Official Records of the Diplomatic Conference, Vol 6, 213). Italy declared that “it is clear that a State with a densely populated territory could not allow that provision to hamper the organization of its defence” (ibid, 235).
... as France emphasized, the obligation extends only to what is feasible—which is generally understood to demand only measures that are “practicable or practically possible, taking into account all circumstances existing at the relevant time, including those circumstances relevant to the success of military operations” (ibid, 232).
Parties to the conflict will have to weigh whether they can avoid placing military objectives within or near densely populated areas without compromising the successful defense of the area. This decision has more to do with a judgment as to what is practicable—all things considered—rather than what is practically possible. Factors that should feed into this assessment include the nature of the military objectives involved, the military significance of the populated area, the hostile action expected from an adversary and the extent and nature of the civilian harm that the placement of military objectives would pose, as well as the availability and effect of any mitigating measures.
Most residential areas where soldiers located themselves were kilometres away from front lines. Viable alternatives were available that would not endanger civilians – such as military bases or densely wooded areas nearby, or other structures further away from residential areas.
The Amnesty report demonstrates a weak understanding of the laws of armed conflict, no understanding of military operations, and indulges in insinuations without supplying supporting evidence.
It is not a violation of IHL for Ukrainian military personnel to situate themselves in the terrain they are tasked to defend rather than in some random piece of adjacent woodland where they can be bypassed.
The Ukrainian military has regularly urged civilians to leave areas of fighting and facilitated them doing so. Forcing displacement is itself a violation of IHL and throughout history many civilians have chosen to remain in areas where there are ongoing military operations.
In setting unattainable expectations of civilian protection, Amnesty trivialises an important issue.
They got the law wrong. Protocol 1 states militaries shall to the maximum extent feasible AVOID locating military objects near populated areas.
Ukraine can place forces in areas they are defending - especially in urban warfare. There is no requirement to stand shoulder to shoulder in a field - this isn’t the 19th century. Ukraine still has an OBLIGATION to protect civilians - but they are taking steps to do so like helping civilians relocate.
Amnesty International’s allegation of unlawful conduct by Ukraine is unconvincing. IHL is a nuanced body of law because it must carefully balance two sometimes competing interests – military necessity and humanitarian considerations.
In my estimation, Amnesty International has acted irresponsibly by making the claim without providing supporting evidence, citing the specific rules that it believes have been violated, or laying out its legal analysis. These failures have deprived Ukraine of a meaningful opportunity to respond and the international community of an ability to properly assess it.
I urge the organization to immediately remedy the situation by releasing its evidence and explaining the legal basis for its conclusion that the conduct violates IHL. As the entity leveling a charge of unlawful conduct, some of which could qualify as a grave breach of IHL, Amnesty International bears the burdens of persuasion and proof. It has not met that burden.
Amnesty International researchers witnessed Ukrainian forces using hospitals as de facto military bases in five locations. In two towns, dozens of soldiers were resting, milling about, and eating meals in hospitals. In another town, soldiers were firing from near the hospital.
Using hospitals for military purposes is a clear violation of international humanitarian law.
The critical provision with respect to the reported behavior is Article 12(4) of Additional Protocol I. It provides, “Under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.” But the rule is limited. The mere presence of military personnel in or near medical facilities (aside from those guarding the facility or being treated) is not unlawful absent an intent to shield. Amnesty International cites no facts unambiguously demonstrating such an intent, leaving only speculation as to why they were there.
The DoD Law of War Manual provides, “[f]or example, a hospital may not be used as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition depot, or as a military observation post” (§ 7.10.3.1). Setting up a base in a medical compound would certainly qualify, but whether “resting, milling about, and eating” would is questionable.
Yet the rule simply removes the special protection medical facilities enjoy; absent intent to shield, there is no IHL violation.
Donatella stayed in the same hotel as us for several days in Kramatorsk in May. It was quite clear from conversations that she had an agenda already - to be contrarian and 'well akshually Ukraine is just as bad' before she even began her fieldwork there.
Caleb Larson wrote:Tom hit this one on the head, the only bit that I’ll add is that when we met Rovera and her research colleague in Kramatorsk, they insisted that Ukrainians fighting in urban terrain must relocate to a forested area. Not too sure how you do that in a city 1/
Rovera was very concerned about how she was perceived by the other journos in the hotel. She argued with former French Foreign Legionnaires and Royal Marines that she had been to more conflict zones than them — combat veterans — and was more knowledgeable 2/
She also refuted our own accounts of what we had seen during our reporting in the field, insisting that what we saw couldn’t possibly be true. At one point she clearly mixed up mortars and artillery — a shock for a conflict researcher with decades of experience 3/
At one point we described a van we had seen that same day that had clearly taken small arms fire and was pockmarked with bullet holes. @DRovera *insisted* that we must have been mistaken and that it was mortar fire instead. She wasn't even there! Absolutely bizarre.
by Vistulange » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:22 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Seems broadly fine and not a case for political asylum, which I imagine is why it made the news as some of Turkeys requested extraditions are that.
by Antipatros » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:45 pm
by Picairn » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:53 pm
Farnhamia wrote:Oh, and a giant no-prize for anyone figuring out the title.
by The Lone Alliance » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:10 pm
by Vistulange » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:34 pm
by Sordhau » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:07 pm
Vistulange wrote:
Some logic. Turkey is literally a NATO member state, and yet it has been acting as a go-between.
by BEEstreetz » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:01 pm
by Ulajhan » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:30 pm
by Continental Free States » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:26 am
Wonder how many times a day you're gonna need to change this tbh.The Lone Alliance wrote:Since I've had so much fun writing them the first time I'm keeping my "List of Russian lies" here and I will update the list semi-regularly for when New or Old Russian lies come to the surface.
So List of Russian Lies about the war in Ukraine:Claimed that the Russian army was strong enough to reach Berlin within 48 hours.
Claimed that the Russian army was strong enough to reach Kyiv within 48 hours.
Claimed that they wouldn't invade Ukraine.
Claimed that claims that Russia was planning to invade Ukraine was a NATO false flag.
Claimed that the Ukrainian army wouldn't fight back and they'd only face scattered resistance from Nazis.
Claimed that the Ukrainian airforce was destroyed completely on the first day.
Claimed that NATO forced Russia to attack Ukraine.
Claimed that NATO was planning an invasion of Russia through Ukraine.
Claimed that the Kyiv Regime was going to surrender in February
Claimed that Russia would nuke the west if the west sent Ukraine Aid.
Claimed that they have won the war and Ukraine will now be part of Russia.... three days in.
Claimed that Zelensky had fled to Poland.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in March.
Claimed that Russia would nuke the west if the west sent Ukraine military aid.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in February.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in March.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in April.
Claimed that the Russian economy wasn't suffering.
Claimed that Russia would bring consequences if NATO invited Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
Claimed that the proof of the lack of victory is evidence that everyone in Ukraine is a Nazi who needs 30 years of forced rehabilitation and gulaging.
Claimed they were not killing civilians.
Claimed that Bucha was done by British Soldiers.
Claimed that Bucha was done by Azov Neo Nazis.
Claimed that Bucha was done by Ukrainian Artillery.
Claimed that Bucha never happened all the bodies were brought in.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in April.
Claimed that Ukraine lost all their Bayraktars in April.
Claimed that Russia would bring consequences if Finland and Sweden agreed to join NATO.
Claimed that Ukraine was being invaded to stop secret NATO Biolabs that were being used to create superweapons that can kill Russians and\or COVID and Monkeypox.
Claimed that the Hospital in Mariupol was full of Azov
Claimed that the theatre full of children in Mariupol were full of Azov.
Claimed that the entire Kyiv offensive was a feint.
Claimed that the entire Sumy offensive was a feint.
Claimed that the Kharkov offensive was a feint before turning around and trying to go back.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in March.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in April.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in May.
Claimed that Ukraine lost all their Bayraktars in May.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in May.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in March.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in April.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in May.
Claimed that Ukraine attacked Transnistria in an obvious false flag.
Claimed that Russia didn't take massive losses in a failed River crossing.
Claimed that taking massive losses in a failed river crossing is completely normal and it happens to everyone.
Claimed that Ukraine launched an attack on Snake Island with helicopters, Ships and NATO commandos and Russia killed all of them.... before trying to claim that the dead Russian soldiers were actually NATO officers before blurring them out when people noticed that they were wearing Russian issued military clothing.
Claimed that there was a NATO Admiral in Mariupol leading Azov.... yet never produced Admiral.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron all of the Ukrainians located in the Luhansk district in May.
Claimed that Ukrainians were not being taken from Ukraine and deported to locations inside Russia.
Claimed that an old computer from 2006 covered in crude "Property of NATO stickers" all over were a top secret NATO computer that Russia captured from Nazis.
Claimed that there was a secret plot by Ukrainian Nazis to kill a Russian propagandist that required Green wigs, unworn Swastika T-shirts, and three copies of the SIMs 3 in the place of SIM cards.
Claimed that Poland was going to invade West Ukraine.
Claimed that the Moskva was fine.
Claimed the Moskva had an internal fire not related to war.
Claimed that the Moskva safely made it back to harbor,
Claimed that the Moskva was sunk in an accident.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in June.
Claimed that Russia had Cauldroned all of the Ukrainians located in the Luhansk district in June.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in July.
Claimed that the Ukrainians are Genetically enhanced supersoldiers with STDs.
Claimed that Ukrainians were selling them Western artillery... failed to produce any.
Claimed a logging truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed a supply truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed an Ambulance was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed another civilian truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed that a second story room in an old factory was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed Ukraine has lost more drones than Ukraine has ever owned.
Claimed that Ukraine has lost more aircraft than they ever owned.
Claimed Ukraine has lost all their HIMARs.
Claimed they weren't going to bomb Odessa after agreeing to a trade deal.... before bombing Odessa.
Claimed that a Ukrainian HIMARs killed the Azov POWs who were clearly set on fire.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was not hit.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was hit but damage was mild.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was hit but the damage wasn't to the point that the bridge wasn't usable despite traffic at the bridge stopping and Russians being forced to use ferries to cross the water.
Claimed that no aircraft were destroyed in the Crimea explosion.
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by Perikuresu » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:56 am
The Lone Alliance wrote:Since I've had so much fun writing them the first time I'm keeping my "List of Russian lies" here and I will update the list semi-regularly for when New or Old Russian lies come to the surface.
So List of Russian Lies about the war in Ukraine:Claimed that the Russian army was strong enough to reach Berlin within 48 hours.
Claimed that the Russian army was strong enough to reach Kyiv within 48 hours.
Claimed that they wouldn't invade Ukraine.
Claimed that claims that Russia was planning to invade Ukraine was a NATO false flag.
Claimed that the Ukrainian army wouldn't fight back and they'd only face scattered resistance from Nazis.
Claimed that the Ukrainian airforce was destroyed completely on the first day.
Claimed that NATO forced Russia to attack Ukraine.
Claimed that NATO was planning an invasion of Russia through Ukraine.
Claimed that the Kyiv Regime was going to surrender in February
Claimed that Russia would nuke the west if the west sent Ukraine Aid.
Claimed that they have won the war and Ukraine will now be part of Russia.... three days in.
Claimed that Zelensky had fled to Poland.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in March.
Claimed that Russia would nuke the west if the west sent Ukraine military aid.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in February.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in March.
Claimed that Mariupol was taken.... in April.
Claimed that the Russian economy wasn't suffering.
Claimed that Russia would bring consequences if NATO invited Finland and Sweden to join NATO.
Claimed that the proof of the lack of victory is evidence that everyone in Ukraine is a Nazi who needs 30 years of forced rehabilitation and gulaging.
Claimed they were not killing civilians.
Claimed that Bucha was done by British Soldiers.
Claimed that Bucha was done by Azov Neo Nazis.
Claimed that Bucha was done by Ukrainian Artillery.
Claimed that Bucha never happened all the bodies were brought in.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in April.
Claimed that Ukraine lost all their Bayraktars in April.
Claimed that Russia would bring consequences if Finland and Sweden agreed to join NATO.
Claimed that Ukraine was being invaded to stop secret NATO Biolabs that were being used to create superweapons that can kill Russians and\or COVID and Monkeypox.
Claimed that the Hospital in Mariupol was full of Azov
Claimed that the theatre full of children in Mariupol were full of Azov.
Claimed that the entire Kyiv offensive was a feint.
Claimed that the entire Sumy offensive was a feint.
Claimed that the Kharkov offensive was a feint before turning around and trying to go back.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in March.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in April.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in May.
Claimed that Ukraine lost all their Bayraktars in May.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron the entire Ukrainian army in the east in May.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in March.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in April.
Claimed that Belarus was going to join the invasion in May.
Claimed that Ukraine attacked Transnistria in an obvious false flag.
Claimed that Russia didn't take massive losses in a failed River crossing.
Claimed that taking massive losses in a failed river crossing is completely normal and it happens to everyone.
Claimed that Ukraine launched an attack on Snake Island with helicopters, Ships and NATO commandos and Russia killed all of them.... before trying to claim that the dead Russian soldiers were actually NATO officers before blurring them out when people noticed that they were wearing Russian issued military clothing.
Claimed that there was a NATO Admiral in Mariupol leading Azov.... yet never produced Admiral.
Claimed that Russia was about to Cauldron all of the Ukrainians located in the Luhansk district in May.
Claimed that Ukrainians were not being taken from Ukraine and deported to locations inside Russia.
Claimed that an old computer from 2006 covered in crude "Property of NATO stickers" all over were a top secret NATO computer that Russia captured from Nazis.
Claimed that there was a secret plot by Ukrainian Nazis to kill a Russian propagandist that required Green wigs, unworn Swastika T-shirts, and three copies of the SIMs 3 in the place of SIM cards.
Claimed that Poland was going to invade West Ukraine.
Claimed that the Moskva was fine.
Claimed the Moskva had an internal fire not related to war.
Claimed that the Moskva safely made it back to harbor,
Claimed that the Moskva was sunk in an accident.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in June.
Claimed that Russia had Cauldroned all of the Ukrainians located in the Luhansk district in June.
Claimed the Ukrainian defensive lines in Donbass were routed in July.
Claimed that the Ukrainians are Genetically enhanced supersoldiers with STDs.
Claimed that Ukrainians were selling them Western artillery... failed to produce any.
Claimed a logging truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed a supply truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed an Ambulance was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed another civilian truck was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed that a second story room in an old factory was a destroyed HIMARs.
Claimed Ukraine has lost more drones than Ukraine has ever owned.
Claimed that Ukraine has lost more aircraft than they ever owned.
Claimed Ukraine has lost all their HIMARs.
Claimed they weren't going to bomb Odessa after agreeing to a trade deal.... before bombing Odessa.
Claimed that a Ukrainian HIMARs killed the Azov POWs who were clearly set on fire.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was not hit.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was hit but damage was mild.
Claimed the Kherson bridge was hit but the damage wasn't to the point that the bridge wasn't usable despite traffic at the bridge stopping and Russians being forced to use ferries to cross the water.
Claimed that no aircraft were destroyed in the Crimea explosion.
by Shamhnan Insir » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:19 am
Darwinish Brentsylvania wrote:Shamhnan Insir started this wonderful tranquility, ALL PRAISE THE SHEPHERD KING
by Picairn » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:04 am
Shamhnan Insir wrote:What do we think of the EU visa ban on Russians?
I think it's fair. Can't be party to a country bombing the shit out of a neighbor and consider it unfair that the other neighbors will deny you a cosy holiday destination.
by Vistulange » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:11 am
Shamhnan Insir wrote:What do we think of the EU visa ban on Russians?
I think it's fair. Can't be party to a country bombing the shit out of a neighbor and consider it unfair that the other neighbors will deny you a cosy holiday destination.
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