Armenia-Azerbaijan Clashes

[Port Caverton]

Artsakh official: Cultural monuments' removal from Berdzor, Aghavno, Sus will be completed next week

DON'T THINK IT DON'T SAY IT DON'T THINK IT DON'T SAY IT DON'T THINK IT DON'T SAY IT DON'T THINK IT DON'T SAY IT

And then you claim that you can pass as a millenial

[Mets Hayk]

President of Artsakh calls for adherence to path of independence

[The House of Hamid]

“The Armenians living in Karabakh should take the right step and understand that their future lies only in integration into the Azerbaijani society. It is not possible otherwise. We are living real life. From the point of view of economy, geography and transport, Karabakh is an integral part of Azerbaijan. From the point of view of history, from the point of view of international law, it is an integral part of Azerbaijan,” -İlham Əliyev

https://azertag.az/en/xeber/Azerbaijani ... ge-2252000

[Mets Hayk]

“The Armenians living in Karabakh should take the right step and understand that their future lies only in integration into the Azerbaijani society. It is not possible otherwise. We are living real life. From the point of view of economy, geography and transport, Karabakh is an integral part of Azerbaijan. From the point of view of history, from the point of view of international law, it is an integral part of Azerbaijan,” -Ilham Aliyev

https://azertag.az/en/xeber/Azerbaijani ... ge-2252000

Ah yes...cultural genocide.

[Perikuresu]

“The Armenians living in Karabakh should take the right step and understand that their future lies only in integration into the Azerbaijani society.

Integration is a "nice" word to use

[The House of Hamid]

“The Armenians living in Karabakh should take the right step and understand that their future lies only in integration into the Azerbaijani society.

Integration is a "nice" word to use

It's the same one the germans use regarding their own immigrants...it works pretty well here, so why not in Azerbaycan?

[Mets Hayk]

Integration is a "nice" word to use

It's the same one the germans use regarding their own immigrants...it works pretty well here, so why not in Azerbaycan?

The Germans aren't committing actual genocide...

[Perikuresu]

It's the same one the germans use regarding their own immigrants...it works pretty well here, so why not in Azerbaycan?

The Germans aren't committing actual genocide...

iirc the Germans were very accommodating to refugees from the middle east in 2015, Azerbaijan tho doesn't show accommodation unless it's to jesus

[The House of Hamid]

It's the same one the germans use regarding their own immigrants...it works pretty well here, so why not in Azerbaycan?

The Germans aren't committing actual genocide...

Neither does Azerbaycan.

Instantly you snap to the usual accusations, take "integration" to mean...what? Forced into the mosque ad gun-point? What's your opinion on multiculturalism anyway?

[Mets Hayk]

The Germans aren't committing actual genocide...

Neither does Azerbaycan.

Instantly you snap to the usual accusations, take "integration" to mean...what? Forced into the mosque ad gun-point? What's your opinion on multiculturalism anyway?

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

[The House of Hamid]

Neither does Azerbaycan.

Instantly you snap to the usual accusations, take "integration" to mean...what? Forced into the mosque ad gun-point? What's your opinion on multiculturalism anyway?

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

Well yes, the governments Turkey and Azerbaycan have today are less than optimal, but that accusation is just... it makes no sense. So the turks are genocidal maniacs because 100 years ago bad shit happened, but the Germans and their gas-chambers in the 1940s are fine? Besides I wasn't implying that Turkey or Azerbaycan are in favour of multiculturalism, I was asking your opinion on it.

Edit: What Aliyev said there imho basically boils down to "It's ours now, and you're not getting it back." - looking at the military situation he's propably right.

[Mets Hayk]

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

Well yes, the governments Turkey and Azerbaycan have today are less than optimal, but that accusation is just... it makes no sense. So the turks are genocidal maniacs because 100 years ago bad shit happened, but the Germans and their gas-chambers in the 1940s are fine? Besides I wasn't implying that Turkey or Azerbaycan are in favour of multiculturalism, I was asking your opinion on it.

"Integration" and "extermination" are the same when it comes to the Azeris...which is evident when you, y'know, actually take the time to look into all the shady shit they did...

As for my opinion on multiculturalism? It's alright, I guess.

[The House of Hamid]

"Integration" and "extermination" are the same when it comes to the Azeris...which is evident when you, y'know, actually take the time to look into all the shady shit they did...

Nah, if we argue about that for another ten pages we'd propably get mod-slapped.

As for my opinion on multiculturalism? It's alright, I guess.

So... what, in your opinion, should the Azeri minority that lives in many parts of armenia do? How should that be handled?

[Mets Hayk]

"Integration" and "extermination" are the same when it comes to the Azeris...which is evident when you, y'know, actually take the time to look into all the shady shit they did...

Nah, if we argue about that for another ten pages we'd propably get mod-slapped.

As for my opinion on multiculturalism? It's alright, I guess.

So... what, in your opinion, should the Azeri minority that lives in many parts of armenia do? How should that be handled?

I mean, we aren't actively hunting them down...nor are we, y'know, murdering them in droves. Most Azeris left Armenia a while ago, so...I suppose those that remain could keep their cultural practices.

[Sordhau]

Nah, if we argue about that for another ten pages we'd propably get mod-slapped.



So... what, in your opinion, should the Azeri minority that lives in many parts of armenia do? How should that be handled?

I mean, we aren't actively hunting them down...nor are we, y'know, murdering them in droves. Most Azeris left Armenia a while ago, so...I suppose those that remain could keep their cultural practices.

My dude why do you waste time on this guy. He posts nothing but bait and has not seriously contributed to any kind of discussion since the thread began. He's not worth the effort.

[The House of Hamid]

Aliyev warns Armenians not to test Azerbaijan's patience

Azerbaijani servicemen participated in the exercises held in Türkiye

Azerbaijan sets measures to organize return of residents to Lachin, Zabukh, Susa

[Mets Hayk]

Aliyev warns Armenians not to test Azerbaijan's patience

Azerbaijani servicemen participated in the exercises held in Türkiye

Azerbaijan sets measures to organize return of residents to Lachin, Zabukh, Susa

Wow...Aliyev's making threats? How surprising...

[The House of Hamid]

Aliyev warns Armenians not to test Azerbaijan's patience

Azerbaijani servicemen participated in the exercises held in Türkiye

Azerbaijan sets measures to organize return of residents to Lachin, Zabukh, Susa

Wow...Aliyev's making threats? How surprising...

Well, he can back them up.

Can you blame him? Qarabağ is part of Azerbaycan after all.

[Vistulange]

Neither does Azerbaycan.

Instantly you snap to the usual accusations, take "integration" to mean...what? Forced into the mosque ad gun-point? What's your opinion on multiculturalism anyway?

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

I can't speak for Azerbaijan, but the notion that the Turkish government wants any sort of "pan-Turkic" state is laughably ridiculous.

[Qihein]

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

I can't speak for Azerbaijan, but the notion that the Turkish government wants any sort of "pan-Turkic" state is laughably ridiculous.

And not to mention how hard such state would be due to how far spread apart the Turkic nations are.

[Mets Hayk]

That's what the Turks did back in 1915 so...probably(?)

Neither Azerbaijan nor Turkey want a 'multicultural' state. Their governments would rather have some sort of a pan-Turkic hellhole...

I can't speak for Azerbaijan, but the notion that the Turkish government wants any sort of "pan-Turkic" state is laughably ridiculous.

Neo-Ottomanism and pan-Turkism go hand in hand...

[Sordhau]

I can't speak for Azerbaijan, but the notion that the Turkish government wants any sort of "pan-Turkic" state is laughably ridiculous.

Neo-Ottomanism and pan-Turkism go hand in hand...

Neo-Ottomanism isn't nearly as prominent in Turkey as one may assume and is honestly quite a bit distinct from Pan-Turanism. It isn't the only form of Turkish nationalism (Kemalism is mainstream ffs) so it has to compete with these other branches of Turkish nationalism on the reg, and as it stands more people simp for Kemal than any Sultan.

[Vistulange]

I can't speak for Azerbaijan, but the notion that the Turkish government wants any sort of "pan-Turkic" state is laughably ridiculous.

Neo-Ottomanism and pan-Turkism go hand in hand...

Neo-Ottomanism isn't even an ideology. It's an epithet for Ahmet Davutoğlu's foreign policy of expanding Turkish soft power over the Middle East, through efforts to introduce conservative liberalism (idealised as a Muslim edition of Germany's Christian Democrats), soap operas, and emphasis on Turkey's Western, high standards of living (relatively speaking—and back in 2011-2013, Turkey did have a pretty decent standard of living), coupled with the "Zero Problems with Neighbours Policy". The man actually despised the description himself (I know this for a fact, and actually have a somewhat amusing anecdote regarding this one), and never used it himself.

Of course, starting mostly with the Arab Spring and particularly the Syrian Civil War, much of that foreign policy collapsed in pretty much every single way you can think of. "Zero Problems with Neighbours" wasn't working out perfectly, but prior to the disaster that was the Arab Spring, it was...okay-ish. Anyway, what was referred to as "neo-Ottomanism" by foreign pundits was, in reality, a rejection of the old Kemalist principle of avoiding involvement in the Middle East at all costs. Prior to 2007, Turkey's involvement in the Middle East had always been overly cautious, tentative, and distanced, ideally involving itself only as much as it needed to, then leaving things alone. The AKP sought to change this established foreign policy outlook, and largely succeeded at it by bypassing the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and utilising or establishing alternative institutions, such as the Directorate for Religious Affairs, or the less well-known Turkish Cooperation and Coordination Agency (TİKA).

On the other hand, pan-Turkism is an ideology that has always, always been at the fringes of modern Turkish politics. Pan-Turkists have almost always been opposed to the Kemalist state apparatus and its organisation; they've generally rejected the National Pact, and the ideology itself is not a monolithic worldview. Its earliest iteration was staunchly anti-Islam, borderline Nazi in its approach towards citizenship; while the Atsızcılar, named after the ultranationalist philosopher Nihal Atsız, did not directly advocate for concentration camps, they probably would have constructed such camps if they had a chance. Many of these folks were purged during the Second World War as Nazi sympathisers in order to improve standing with the Soviet Union.

That set off a conflict within the movement that is referred to in Turkish scholarship as the "Crescent-Wolf" dispute; essentially, the former group advocated that Islam was a fundamental aspect of Turkish identity ("The soul of a Turk is Islam; the body cannot live without the soul") whereas the latter group was anti-Islam (to an extreme point: they were often neo-Shamanists harkening back to pre-Islamic Turkic faiths), rejecting Islam has having "Arabised" Turks and led them into decadence. The former group, under Alparslan Türkeş, won the battle of ideals, and from there the modern Nationalist Action Party (MHP) was born. They still advocated for uniting all Turkic lands under the Turkish flag, but considering the Soviet Union really was leagues above Turkey, and that the MHP was never really a substantial force in determining foreign policy, it was all bluster with no substance.

Come 1991, when the Soviet Union is no longer a threat, you'd expect that these folks to realise their hopes. Not so. The 12 September 1980 coup d'etat had thoroughly emasculated the ultranationalist movement in Turkey, along with the radical left and the centre-left. Lacking organisation, and having their ultranationalist programme co-opted, diluted to 1%, and wrapped under the veneer of neoliberal investment by the centre-right Turgut Özal and his Motherland Party (ANAP), they spent the period between 1990-1999 largely trying to figure their shit out. In 1999, the MHP did manage to get into government as a junior partner in a triple coalition, but by that point, its leadership had changed (Alparslan Türkeş, leader since 1969, died in 1997 and was replaced with Devlet Bahçeli) and was far less radical compared to the Cold War years. To add onto that, they had to share power as the weakest coalition power with the centre-left and the centre-right. In laymen's terms, that amounted to "squat" in terms of proper political influence, at least over foreign policy. They didn't get the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (the centre-left did), they didn't get the Ministry of Tourism (the centre-right did) but they got the Ministry of National Security—at a time when the post was basically restricted to nodding along to what the generals down at the Chief of General Staff said was a threat.

Fast-forwarding to today, the MHP is basically brain-dead as a party. It hasn't got any proper policies of pan-Turkism; it probably maintains some references to it in its party programme but not in a policy-oriented way. It has become a party that is entirely based around propping up the AKP and Erdoğan as long as it continues to pursue nominally nationalist policies. Even that stance is half-assed because they're also the ones nodding along as the AKP intensifies its open-borders policy towards Syrians, Iraqis, and Afghans; the far-right (incidentally, the not-very-pan-Turkic but still nationalist right) is practically leeching votes from them precisely because of this. So, basically, the pan-Turkic movement in Turkey is dead. The party representing it still exists, but it has moved on from advocating literal pan-Turkism a long, long time ago, either due to circumstances, or the change in politics over time.

Tl;dr: Neo-Ottomanism and pan-Turkism don't go hand-in-hand. They're very different things, and the very tradition that both of them draw upon are basically always at logger-heads with each other. Islamists and ultranationalists in Turkey don't get along. They almost never have. They have co-operated, but those instances were very reluctantly so, and oftentimes, collapsed very quickly. This is because while the ultranationalist wing may have sympathies for Islam and its place in Turkish identity, the Islamists have almost zero tolerance for any sort of nationalism. An "Islamist ultranationalist" in the context of Turkish politics is essentially an oxymoron: the person is either not an Islamist, or isn't an ultranationalist.

Neo-Ottomanism and pan-Turkism go hand in hand...

Neo-Ottomanism isn't nearly as prominent in Turkey as one may assume and is honestly quite a bit distinct from Pan-Turanism. It isn't the only form of Turkish nationalism (Kemalism is mainstream ffs) so it has to compete with these other branches of Turkish nationalism on the reg, and as it stands more people simp for Kemal than any Sultan.

I've done my best put in some effort to explain why neo-Ottomanism isn't even a proper "ideology" the way we conceptualise it above, but I'll use this as a jumping point to underline that insofar as it is an ideology, it's decidedly a non-nationalist one. There wasn't an "Ottoman nation" (despite efforts to cultivate one). That's the whole point of whatever it is we're calling "neo-Ottomanism". Ahmet Davutoğlu and the AKP foreign policy sought to "transcend" the boundary of Kemalist foreign policy by instrumentalising Turkey's identity as a Muslim-majority country, which had previously been rejected completely by the old Kemalists. That also meant expanding Turkey's influence over the nearby Arab states, also the Balkans, also the Caucasuses, by changing Turkey's face from the old, Cold War-era security state to a new, modern state which sought to mend ties with countries and regions it had historical connections to. Erdoğan, Prime Minister at the time, would hold speeches about how the AKP was not nationalist, an oft-quoted soundbite of his is "we have trampled nationalism beneath our feet", and it's exactly what it sounds like.

The current policies and orientation of the AKP really shouldn't be taken as an insight as to what their past looked like. This is a party with a relatively long history within the context of a multiparty democracy that was, up until 2018, parliamentary; parties are born and die very quickly in such systems, at least in countries where politics are not very stable. The only such party that has a similarly long history (well, definitely more so, but you get the point), the CHP, has also changed, transformed, and morphed throughout its century-long existence.

[Ostroeuropa]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... nocide.svg

Armenian genocide map of countries that acknowledge it.

+

In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) passed a resolution unanimously recognizing the Ottoman massacres of Armenians as genocide. In April 2006, the Turkish Human Rights Association (IHD) recognized the events as a genocide.

+

The verdict of the Istanbul trials, held by the Ottoman government in 1919–1920, acknowledged the massacre of Armenians as "war crimes", and sentenced the perpetrators to death. However, in 1921, during the resurgence of the Turkish National Movement, amnesty was given to those found guilty. Thereafter, the Turkish government, under Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, adopted a policy of denial.

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Yes, Artsakh should be independent and then allowed to enter union with Armenia.

[The House of Hamid]

Pakistan supports Azerbaijan's aspiration for stability in South Caucasus - ambassador