American Politics XIII: (Un)Lucky For Some

[Sordhau]

Portugal is still a capitalist country despite the Socialist party having control. It's a social democracy.

"The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people's decision to defend national independence, guarantee citizens' fundamental rights, establish the basic principles of democracy, ensure the primacy of a democratic state based on the rule of law and open up a path towards a socialist society, with respect for the will of the Portuguese people and with a view to the construction of a country that is freer, more just and more fraternal."

My man it doesn't matter what they say they're gonna do; what matters is what they've done. You can't call them a Socialist state until the means of production are in the workers' hands.

And considering it's still operating within the framework of a liberal democracy, this will never happen.

[Senkaku]

Oh yeah here comes the "that wasnt real socialism arguement"

Yes, the country with the largest number of billionaires on the planet is in fact not a Socialist country.

Is this surprising to you? Because if you know what Socialism is it shouldn't be.

Maybe the party is just managing the historical stage of bourgeois-led industrial development and will eventually manage a post-industrial turn towards socialism? I guess we can dream

[Celritannia]

"The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people's decision to defend national independence, guarantee citizens' fundamental rights, establish the basic principles of democracy, ensure the primacy of a democratic state based on the rule of law and open up a path towards a socialist society, with respect for the will of the Portuguese people and with a view to the construction of a country that is freer, more just and more fraternal."

My man it doesn't matter what they say they're gonna do; what matters is what they've done. You can't call them a Socialist state until the means of production are in the workers' hands.

And considering it's still operating within the framework of a liberal democracy, this will never happen.

I think it will, and the best example of how to transition.

[Senkaku]

No. Ban then from doing it. Them striking is a threat to public health and safety.

If it happens around November and power goes out Democrats won’t keep the Senate.

How incredibly Machiavellian of you. Are you quite sure you have the moral consistency to be debating what's good for public health and safety from the safety of your chair? Check the ergonomics of it, could be bad for your arms.

Delaying a crisis or repressing workers to eke out a few more seats in the Senate isn’t “incredibly” Machiavellian, I think it’s just about an average amount of Machiavellian tbh

[Sordhau]

My man it doesn't matter what they say they're gonna do; what matters is what they've done. You can't call them a Socialist state until the means of production are in the workers' hands.

And considering it's still operating within the framework of a liberal democracy, this will never happen.

I think it will, and the best example of how to transition.

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

[Celritannia]

I think it will, and the best example of how to transition.

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

Portugal has been moving towards socialism for decades now.
I dislike totalitarian forms of government. Even in a socialist utopia, elections still need to occur.

[Tarsonis]

I think it will, and the best example of how to transition.

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

[Celritannia]

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

Which, tbh, I do like.

[Prima Scriptura]

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

American socialists don’t seem to realize that socialist parties in Europe are much closer to the center than they are. Mainly because a efficient and comprehensive welfare state has already been established. The socialists over there know that they need revenue to fund said welfare state, unlike the socialist over here that think it’s gonna be some fucking utopia where money does not exist and it will operate out of the kindness of other people alone.

[Senkaku]

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

Which, tbh, I do like.

You should buy Sordhau’s bridge, these summer deals won’t last forever

[Celritannia]

Which, tbh, I do like.

You should buy Sordhau’s bridge, these summer deals won’t last forever

No thanks

[Sordhau]

You think the best way to attain Socialism is by playing by the rules the elites set up and hoping they won't use the system they themselves designed and know intricately to keep us from obtaining our goals which they know will be to their own detriment?

My man, I just remembered I have a bridge to sell you.

Portugal has been moving towards socialism for decades now.
I dislike totalitarian forms of government. Even in a socialist utopia, elections still need to occur.

That's nice and all but liberal democracy is not compatible with a Socialist system. If you want democracy and Socialism then you need a Socialist democratic system, not a Capitalist democratic system.

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

Which, tbh, I do like.

I initially thought you were a Democratic Socialist. Apparently I was wrong.

You're a Social Democrat, which is even worse.

[Celritannia]

Portugal has been moving towards socialism for decades now.
I dislike totalitarian forms of government. Even in a socialist utopia, elections still need to occur.

That's nice and all but liberal democracy is not compatible with a Socialist system. If you want democracy and Socialism then you need a Socialist democratic system, not a Capitalist democratic system.

Which, tbh, I do like.

I initially thought you were a Democratic Socialist. Apparently I was wrong.

You're a Social Democrat, which is even worse.

It's still democratic, regardless if it is socialist or capitalist, as long as elections occur its otherwise just pedantic

I'm a libertarian socialist.

[Senkaku]

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

American socialists don’t seem to realize that socialist parties in Europe are much closer to the center than they are. Mainly because a efficient and comprehensive welfare state has already been established. The socialists over there know that they need revenue to fund said welfare state, unlike the socialist over here that think it’s gonna be some fucking utopia where money does not exist and it will operate out of the kindness of other people alone.

“Efficient and comprehensive” comes off as a bit of a hard sell to anyone who’s ever spent any amount of time in a French post office lol

[Prima Scriptura]

American socialists don’t seem to realize that socialist parties in Europe are much closer to the center than they are. Mainly because a efficient and comprehensive welfare state has already been established. The socialists over there know that they need revenue to fund said welfare state, unlike the socialist over here that think it’s gonna be some fucking utopia where money does not exist and it will operate out of the kindness of other people alone.

“Efficient and comprehensive” comes off as a bit of a hard sell to anyone who’s ever spent any amount of time in a French post office lol

I would give my left hand to have a welfare state similar to France. American post office is also suck. However my point still stands. Socialists in Europe are much closer to the center than socialists in America.

[Sordhau]

It's still democratic, regardless if it is socialist or capitalist, as long as elections occur its otherwise just pedantic

Democracy comes in a variety of forms. Liberal democracy is explicitly designed with liberalism in mind, and capitalism is part of liberalism. These are inseparable from the core concept of liberal democracy.

A Socialist democracy resembles the Soviet system; not the Western one.

I'm a libertarian socialist.

If you do not want to eliminate Capitalism then you are not a Socialist. Full stop.

[Celritannia]

It's still democratic, regardless if it is socialist or capitalist, as long as elections occur its otherwise just pedantic

Democracy comes in a variety of forms. Liberal democracy is explicitly designed with liberalism in mind, and capitalism is part of liberalism. These are inseparable from the core concept of liberal democracy.

A Socialist democracy resembles the Soviet system; not the Western one.

I'm a libertarian socialist.

If you do not want to eliminate Capitalism then you are not a Socialist. Full stop.

Listen chum, I've been left wing since I was 16, I don't need some recent convert of left wing principles telling me what I am or what I am not.

[Tarsonis]

The Socialist Party in Portugal is notably non-revolutionary, and is more interested in regulating capitalism than eliminating it.

Which, tbh, I do like.

So do I, but I'm a social Democrat, not a Socialist. And honestly, it seems thw Socialist party of Portugal is really a social democracy party. so that's cool

[Sordhau]

Democracy comes in a variety of forms. Liberal democracy is explicitly designed with liberalism in mind, and capitalism is part of liberalism. These are inseparable from the core concept of liberal democracy.

A Socialist democracy resembles the Soviet system; not the Western one.



If you do not want to eliminate Capitalism then you are not a Socialist. Full stop.

Listen chum, I've been left wing since I was 16, I don't need some recent convert of left wing principles telling me what I am or what I am not.

By your own confession you're not Left-wing, so you'll forgive me if I doubt you ever were to begin with as a consequence.

The Left does not exist to "restrain" Capitalism. The Left exists to destroy Capitalism. I don't care how long you *think* you've been a Leftist. Even when I was anti-Left I still knew what the Left stood for. Don't try and pull the seniority card on me, SocDem.

[Prima Scriptura]

Listen chum, I've been left wing since I was 16, I don't need some recent convert of left wing principles telling me what I am or what I am not.

By your own confession you're not Left-wing, so you'll forgive me if I doubt you ever were to begin with as a consequence.

The Left does not exist to "restrain" Capitalism. The Left exists to destroy Capitalism. I don't care how long you *think* you've been a Leftist. Even when I was anti-Left I still knew what the Left stood for. Don't try and pull the seniority card on me, SocDem.

Lol, you’re acting like a salafist.

[Tarsonis]

Listen chum, I've been left wing since I was 16, I don't need some recent convert of left wing principles telling me what I am or what I am not.

By your own confession you're not Left-wing, so you'll forgive me if I doubt you ever were to begin with as a consequence.

The Left does not exist to "restrain" Capitalism. The Left exists to destroy Capitalism. I don't care how long you *think* you've been a Leftist. Even when I was anti-Left I still knew what the Left stood for. Don't try and pull the seniority card on me, SocDem.

damn leftists, they ruined leftism

[Thomasi]

Parties should focus on purely economic issues and then let their individual candidates decide what social issues they want to back or campaign against. So that way, if for example your economically left, you can get both the economically left and socially liberal and the economically left in the socially conservative under your wing versus only getting socially liberal parts of economically left or the socially conservative parts.

[Sordhau]

By your own confession you're not Left-wing, so you'll forgive me if I doubt you ever were to begin with as a consequence.

The Left does not exist to "restrain" Capitalism. The Left exists to destroy Capitalism. I don't care how long you *think* you've been a Leftist. Even when I was anti-Left I still knew what the Left stood for. Don't try and pull the seniority card on me, SocDem.

damn leftists, they ruined leftism

This, but unironically!

[Senkaku]

By your own confession you're not Left-wing, so you'll forgive me if I doubt you ever were to begin with as a consequence.

The Left does not exist to "restrain" Capitalism. The Left exists to destroy Capitalism. I don't care how long you *think* you've been a Leftist. Even when I was anti-Left I still knew what the Left stood for. Don't try and pull the seniority card on me, SocDem.

damn leftists, they ruined leftism

circular firing squads are the most exciting kind of firing squad to be a part of

[Ifreann]

Parties should focus on purely economic issues and then let their individual candidates decide what social issues they want to back or campaign against. So that way, if for example your economically left, you can get both the economically left and socially liberal and the economically left in the socially conservative under your wing versus only getting socially liberal parts of economically left or the socially conservative parts.

Never trust people who claim to be economically left and socially anything else.