Should Somaliland be recognized?

[Great Heathen Air Force]

LGBTQ+ rights are just about nonexistent in both Somalia and Somaliland. While I do support giving them rights, I unfortunately do not see how this helps your argument given the presence of these rights is relatively the same in both regions.

It's my fault it's not about you. It's very difficult to write in English. I am aware that both regions are bad, but it would be more appropriate to talk about a merger rather than a split. "I don't know the Somaliland region very well" It should be the united states with the values ​​of the European Union, not the division policy of the nation states.

A Somali, a Tuareg, a Tunisian, and an Omani walk into a bar.

They proceed to sit separately because they don't have much in common.

There is no joke. Except the map.

[El Lazaro]

It's my fault it's not about you. It's very difficult to write in English. I am aware that both regions are bad, but it would be more appropriate to talk about a merger rather than a split. "I don't know the Somaliland region very well" It should be the united states with the values ​​of the European Union, not the division policy of the nation states.

(Image)

A Somali, a Tuareg, a Tunisian, and an Omani walk into a bar.

They proceed to sit separately because they don't have much in common.

There is no joke. Except the map.

It’s not that bad. It solves the Egypt-Sudan border dispute and ends the Syrian Civil War by virtue of ending Syria.

[Sweitchland]

I didn't mean it, I want to apologize if it was perceived as such, there may have been a translation error. I wanted to emphasize secularism, I didn't want to call the people from the Somaliland region nazis. I'm just wondering why those who want to recognize the independence of places like Palestine and Somaliland stay in the background when it comes to Israel and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. these people are anti-secular, anti-Semitic people.

“I didn’t call Somalilanders Nazis, I just called Palestinians Nazis and people who don’t support my world view anti-semites.”
Incredible stuff.

bruhhhhhhhh
this is why I fear nationalism

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

I didn't mean it, I want to apologize if it was perceived as such, there may have been a translation error. I wanted to emphasize secularism, I didn't want to call the people from the Somaliland region nazis. I'm just wondering why those who want to recognize the independence of places like Palestine and Somaliland stay in the background when it comes to Israel and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. these people are anti-secular, anti-Semitic people.

“I didn’t call Somalilanders Nazis, I just called Palestinians Nazis and people who don’t support my world view anti-semites.”
Incredible stuff.

“And any ideology that gets elected I don’t agree with is not real democracy.”
Indeed

[Bear Stearns]

“I didn’t call Somalilanders Nazis, I just called Palestinians Nazis and people who don’t support my world view anti-semites.”
Incredible stuff.

“And any ideology that gets elected I don’t agree with is not real democracy.”
Indeed

trump is a fascist and a threat to the our democracy

[The Land of the Ephyral]

Whether or not Somaliland should be recognised depends on how much you hate Somalia. At a geopolitical level it's whether or not your country benefits. Bids for independence are judged either as heroic campaigns for freedom or terrorist separatist ambitions. Rarely do the circumstances in each area actually determine this judgement.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

A Somali, a Tuareg, a Tunisian, and an Omani walk into a bar.

They proceed to sit separately because they don't have much in common.

There is no joke. Except the map.

It’s not that bad. It solves the Egypt-Sudan border dispute and ends the Syrian Civil War by virtue of ending Syria.

yes it is, but so-called democrats see division as a democratic right. I am not an American citizen, I am European. My past saw Rome, saw Byzantium, saw the Ottoman. That's why my future is the European Union. If necessary, we will forcibly make non-democratic nations the heir of the European Union.

[Mestovakia]

It’s not that bad. It solves the Egypt-Sudan border dispute and ends the Syrian Civil War by virtue of ending Syria.

yes it is, but so-called democrats see division as a democratic right. I am not an American citizen, I am European. My past saw Rome, saw Byzantium, saw the Ottoman. That's why my future is the European Union. If necessary, we will forcibly make non-democratic nations the heir of the European Union.

"Forcibly"?

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

It’s not that bad. It solves the Egypt-Sudan border dispute and ends the Syrian Civil War by virtue of ending Syria.

yes it is, but so-called democrats see division as a democratic right. I am not an American citizen, I am European. My past saw Rome, saw Byzantium, saw the Ottoman. That's why my future is the European Union. If necessary, we will forcibly make non-democratic nations the heir of the European Union.

So if people want to do something, it’s not democracy (unless it’s something you want, in which case it totally is democracy)

[Chan Island]

It's functionally acted as an independent state now for decades. It should be recognised.

[The Land of the Ephyral]

It's functionally acted as an independent state now for decades. It should be recognised.

If longevity of de facto independence gives weight to the legitimacy of de jure independence, is it immoral for a state to quash a nascent bid for independence on the basis that it denies that independence bid the opportunity to prove itself effective enough to earn recognition?

[Page]

Whether or not Somaliland should be recognised depends on how much you hate Somalia.

It has nothing to do with hating Somalia. Somaliland had their own thing going on before the Europeans came and cut up Africa and they want to have their own thing going on now.

Being Somaliland is like being handcuffed to somebody who likes completely different things than you and also has covid. You may not hate this person but you want the handcuffs off.

[The Land of the Ephyral]

Whether or not Somaliland should be recognised depends on how much you hate Somalia.

It has nothing to do with hating Somalia. Somaliland had their own thing going on before the Europeans came and cut up Africa and they want to have their own thing going on now.

Being Somaliland is like being handcuffed to somebody who likes completely different things than you and also has covid. You may not hate this person but you want the handcuffs off.

Somaliland is a colonial creation, not a pre-existing colonial state. To return it to pre-colonial conditions would be to return many small pieces of territory to their traditional clans and tribes. If they want to campaign for returning to that that's of course up to them, might even work out since these tribal identities have always been stronger than the national one.

Of course the precedent of "return this part of Countryland to the control of Folkpeople as it was before Colonialinvader arrived" would cause a lot of border shifting across the world. Another messier part of course is the reality that the Folkpeople it is returned to, and whatever their tribal self-expression is, are almost always just the last people to have conquered it before Europeans arrived. I don't see any especial reason why the European carving of territory is less legitimate than theirs, and so on that basis I again argue it comes down to how you feel about Somalia.

[RedBrickLand]

In my opinion, Somaliland should be recognized. They managed to fend for themselves and stay relatively stable. Meanwhile, Somalia, well Somalia's being Somalia. However, I don't think it can gain recognition currently, which is somewhat unfortunate since recognition would attract aid and international business.

Foreign nations won't allow it to happen for plenty of reasons.

Some(Italy) are motivated by economic interests in southern Somalia and ex-colonial ties.
Egypt supports Somali unity to keep Ethiopia under control, with whom it is competing for the use of the Nile water.
Some countries are trying to stabilize Somalia. Recognizing Somaliland would not help.
Some countries fear that recognizing Somaliland would result in more secession.

Foreign nations each have their own reasons but it's usually the nation fearing an increase in secessionist movements or the nation preferring to support Somalia. There's just too many repercussions that could come from recognizing Somaliland that prevents it from being recognized at the moment. I think after a couple of decades is most likely when they'll gain recognition.

[Risottia]

That's why my future is the European Union. If necessary, we will forcibly make non-democratic nations the heir of the European Union.

How about you keep your tyranny out of the EU, starting with Cyprus.

[Heloin]

Whether or not Somaliland should be recognised depends on how much you hate Somalia.

Whether or not you think Somaliland should be recognised depends solely on how much or little yours know about Somalia. In the case of your post I will go with "not a clue".

It has nothing to do with hating Somalia. Somaliland had their own thing going on before the Europeans came and cut up Africa and they want to have their own thing going on now.

Being Somaliland is like being handcuffed to somebody who likes completely different things than you and also has covid. You may not hate this person but you want the handcuffs off.

Somaliland is a colonial creation, not a pre-existing colonial state. To return it to pre-colonial conditions would be to return many small pieces of territory to their traditional clans and tribes. If they want to campaign for returning to that that's of course up to them, might even work out since these tribal identities have always been stronger than the national one.

Of course the precedent of "return this part of Countryland to the control of Folkpeople as it was before Colonialinvader arrived" would cause a lot of border shifting across the world. Another messier part of course is the reality that the Folkpeople it is returned to, and whatever their tribal self-expression is, are almost always just the last people to have conquered it before Europeans arrived. I don't see any especial reason why the European carving of territory is less legitimate than theirs, and so on that basis I again argue it comes down to how you feel about Somalia.

The Somali government attempted to totally exterminate the Isaaq people of Somaliland in the late 80s. This genocide was stopped solely by Somaliland winning it's war of independence.

[Bistritza]

No. Three arguments.

(1) Somaliland is currently an aggressor.
The Ishaak and Dir are two ethnic groups who constituted Somaliland. During the ongoing Somali Civil War, Somaliland has taken control over the regions of Sanaag and Sool. The majority ethnic group in those two regions in Darod, the same people who live in Puntland. Despite being unrepresented in Somalia's public themselves, the Darod support Somalia on the issue. This tells me that the Ishaak and Dir controlled Somaliland may not be very tolerant of other ethnic groups.

(2) The African Horn troubles.
The Ishaak and Dir are infamous in the African Horn and East Africa for using violent means to achieve political goals. Djibouti, Ethiopia and recently South Sudan. Honestly, go to Djibouti and ask how they feel about the Ishaak. Go to central Ethiopia (also populated by the Darod) and ask the same. While on the topic of Ethiopia.

(3) The Pakistan-Afghanistan Ouroboros.
The current Ethiopian war which has been going on for 2-3 years between the Oroma and the Tigray, back-and-forth and heavily unreported on, with the most horrifying war crimes which the world 21st century world is yet to see.
Now I will cover my base by giving you vital information instead of being called Ishaakophobic or whatever. Both the Ishaak Somaliland and the Tigrayan revolts are openly and directly sponsored, funded and trained by Eritrea. Given that Ethiopia has finished the Nile River Dam and has fractured their relations with Egypt, Sudan and South Sudan; I except that now Eritrea will have to deal with a balkanized environment full of militant groups. It's very much reminiscent of current Pakistan. An ironic event was that a splinter Tigrayan squadron instigated a border dispute with Eritrean officials. I recall the Talibans doing the same and Pakistan crying wolf about it.

So no, recognizing Somaliland would only worsen the already destabilized region.

[Page]

All of the above can basically be summarized as "violence along ethnic lines is a thing and it's bad" but that is not an argument against independence.

[Chan Island]

It's functionally acted as an independent state now for decades. It should be recognised.

If longevity of de facto independence gives weight to the legitimacy of de jure independence, is it immoral for a state to quash a nascent bid for independence on the basis that it denies that independence bid the opportunity to prove itself effective enough to earn recognition?

No, not really. It would in fact be a normal, if authoritarian, method for that state to hold itself together. You haven’t even posted a hypothetical- when the Spanish authorities quashed that independence referendum in Catalonia a few years ago, they were doing exactly this. Longevity is a critical component to the stories of nations, with even new ones always trying to hark to some past state in their region.

[Bistritza]

All of the above can basically be summarized as "violence along ethnic lines is a thing and it's bad" but that is not an argument against independence.

Yes it can. States can be guilty of committing international crime.

You're referring to what was the standard during the Nuremberg trials because ''an entire nation cannot be accused of committing a crime'', that's been changed significantly. By contemporary international law, not only committing but establishing a state on the basis of (crime against humanity)/(genocide) is illegal.

Citing: ''Responsibility of States for Intentionally Wrongful Acts'' (2001), Link: https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/draft_articles/9_6_2001.pdf

Article 10, rule 2: The conduct of a movement, insurrectional or other, which succeeds in establishing a new State in part of the territory of a pre-existing State or in a territory under its administration shall be considered an act of the new State under international law.

Furthermore,

Article 1: Every internationally wrongful act of a State entails the international responsibility of that State.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

That's why my future is the European Union. If necessary, we will forcibly make non-democratic nations the heir of the European Union.

How about you keep your tyranny out of the EU, starting with Cyprus.

Why are you afraid of the idea of ​​the great roman republic ? Are you homophobic? No we don't allow it! Do you have anti-feminist rhetoric? No, we do not allow it! Are you racist, no we don't allow it. You are as free as the borders drawn by the social democrats. I'm calling out to people who stay in the medieval mentality like Brexit, the footsteps of the revolution are rising, one day the African Union will be solidly strong like the European Union !

No. Three arguments.

(1) Somaliland is currently an aggressor.
The Ishaak and Dir are two ethnic groups who constituted Somaliland. During the ongoing Somali Civil War, Somaliland has taken control over the regions of Sanaag and Sool. The majority ethnic group in those two regions in Darod, the same people who live in Puntland. Despite being unrepresented in Somalia's public themselves, the Darod support Somalia on the issue. This tells me that the Ishaak and Dir controlled Somaliland may not be very tolerant of other ethnic groups.

(2) The African Horn troubles.
The Ishaak and Dir are infamous in the African Horn and East Africa for using violent means to achieve political goals. Djibouti, Ethiopia and recently South Sudan. Honestly, go to Djibouti and ask how they feel about the Ishaak. Go to central Ethiopia (also populated by the Darod) and ask the same. While on the topic of Ethiopia.

(3) The Pakistan-Afghanistan Ouroboros.
The current Ethiopian war which has been going on for 2-3 years between the Oroma and the Tigray, back-and-forth and heavily unreported on, with the most horrifying war crimes which the world 21st century world is yet to see.
Now I will cover my base by giving you vital information instead of being called Ishaakophobic or whatever. Both the Ishaak Somaliland and the Tigrayan revolts are openly and directly sponsored, funded and trained by Eritrea. Given that Ethiopia has finished the Nile River Dam and has fractured their relations with Egypt, Sudan and South Sudan; I except that now Eritrea will have to deal with a balkanized environment full of militant groups. It's very much reminiscent of current Pakistan. An ironic event was that a splinter Tigrayan squadron instigated a border dispute with Eritrean officials. I recall the Talibans doing the same and Pakistan crying wolf about it.

So no, recognizing Somaliland would only worsen the already destabilized region.

I don't know enough about this subject, but the idea of ​​division seems silly to me. Those who defend the partition of Somaliland are the same as the mentality that sees Israel as a murderous state in the middle east.

[Biladu Al Rafidayn]

How about you keep your tyranny out of the EU, starting with Cyprus.

Why are you afraid of the idea of ​​the great roman republic ? Are you homophobic? No we don't allow it! Do you have anti-feminist rhetoric? No, we do not allow it! Are you racist, no we don't allow it. You are as free as the borders drawn by the social democrats. I'm calling out to people who stay in the medieval mentality like Brexit, the footsteps of the revolution are rising, one day the African Union will be solidly strong like the European Union !

No. Three arguments.

(1) Somaliland is currently an aggressor.
The Ishaak and Dir are two ethnic groups who constituted Somaliland. During the ongoing Somali Civil War, Somaliland has taken control over the regions of Sanaag and Sool. The majority ethnic group in those two regions in Darod, the same people who live in Puntland. Despite being unrepresented in Somalia's public themselves, the Darod support Somalia on the issue. This tells me that the Ishaak and Dir controlled Somaliland may not be very tolerant of other ethnic groups.

(2) The African Horn troubles.
The Ishaak and Dir are infamous in the African Horn and East Africa for using violent means to achieve political goals. Djibouti, Ethiopia and recently South Sudan. Honestly, go to Djibouti and ask how they feel about the Ishaak. Go to central Ethiopia (also populated by the Darod) and ask the same. While on the topic of Ethiopia.

(3) The Pakistan-Afghanistan Ouroboros.
The current Ethiopian war which has been going on for 2-3 years between the Oroma and the Tigray, back-and-forth and heavily unreported on, with the most horrifying war crimes which the world 21st century world is yet to see.
Now I will cover my base by giving you vital information instead of being called Ishaakophobic or whatever. Both the Ishaak Somaliland and the Tigrayan revolts are openly and directly sponsored, funded and trained by Eritrea. Given that Ethiopia has finished the Nile River Dam and has fractured their relations with Egypt, Sudan and South Sudan; I except that now Eritrea will have to deal with a balkanized environment full of militant groups. It's very much reminiscent of current Pakistan. An ironic event was that a splinter Tigrayan squadron instigated a border dispute with Eritrean officials. I recall the Talibans doing the same and Pakistan crying wolf about it.

So no, recognizing Somaliland would only worsen the already destabilized region.

I don't know enough about this subject, but the idea of ​​division seems silly to me. Those who defend the partition of Somaliland are the same as the mentality that sees Israel as a murderous state in the middle east.

The problem starts when you want to forcibly block everyone who doesn’t agree with you. You want a social democrat state without the “democrat” bit

Well, Israel is murderous, but we can discuss that via TG

[Heloin]

Why are you afraid of the idea of ​​the great roman republic ? Are you homophobic?

Absolute golden take. Amazing dril tweet but you actually mean it.

[Heloin]

All of the above can basically be summarized as "violence along ethnic lines is a thing and it's bad" but that is not an argument against independence.

Yes it can. States can be guilty of committing international crime.

You're referring to what was the standard during the Nuremberg trials because ''an entire nation cannot be accused of committing a crime'', that's been changed significantly. By contemporary international law, not only committing but establishing a state on the basis of (crime against humanity)/(genocide) is illegal.

Citing: ''Responsibility of States for Intentionally Wrongful Acts'' (2001), Link: https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/draft_articles/9_6_2001.pdf

Article 10, rule 2: The conduct of a movement, insurrectional or other, which succeeds in establishing a new State in part of the territory of a pre-existing State or in a territory under its administration shall be considered an act of the new State under international law.

Furthermore,

Article 1: Every internationally wrongful act of a State entails the international responsibility of that State.

Somaliland was established in the midst of a Somalian genocide of the people who live in Somaliland.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

Why are you afraid of the idea of ​​the great roman republic ? Are you homophobic? No we don't allow it! Do you have anti-feminist rhetoric? No, we do not allow it! Are you racist, no we don't allow it. You are as free as the borders drawn by the social democrats. I'm calling out to people who stay in the medieval mentality like Brexit, the footsteps of the revolution are rising, one day the African Union will be solidly strong like the European Union !

I don't know enough about this subject, but the idea of ​​division seems silly to me. Those who defend the partition of Somaliland are the same as the mentality that sees Israel as a murderous state in the middle east.

The problem starts when you want to forcibly block everyone who doesn’t agree with you. You want a social democrat state without the “democrat” bit

Well, Israel is murderous, but we can discuss that via TG

I certainly do not think so, as an example, a person can defend the idea of ​​​​Somaliland or the idea of ​​Kurdistan, this is a democratic right. But I reject the white supremacist political Islamist homophobic thoughts. For example, I want a free state where pornographic art is practiced freely. A state where no one is killed because they do not believe in Islam. I want an LGBT-friendly state where gays have the same rights as straights.