Brittney Griner in jail

[The South Sea Bubble]

Who the fuck cares

Inoffensive Centrist Democracy be like

[American Legionaries]

Seriously? Then what was your point?

Exactly what I said. That while you might think that her words show that she hates America, her actions show patriotism, and someone once told me that actions speak louder than words.

She only ever said words in opposition to the anthem being played at WNBA events?

[Senkaku]

I haven't said anything about her intent.

Au contre

..... I would propose that her actions of competing and winning for her country on the international stage speak louder of her patriotism than her words in opposition to the national anthem being played at WNBA matches and similar sporting events...

you perceive her as inadequately patriotic and therefore find it funny/deserved that she's getting tossed in the gulag over some vape cartridges and geopolitical bullshit... but see yourself as a patriot, I'm guessing?

[Risottia]

As much as you want to push the narrative that Trevor Reed is "just an average joe" that's clearly not true. He was a USMC veteran, the article you linked is headlined by saying he was a "Marine vet" and if you don't think that counts for something above and beyond "average joe" in the American public conciousness, you haven't been paying attention.

I would guess that an Olympic gold winner counts for something above and beyond "average joe" too.

Playing for another country's team is treason.

Are you aware of the difference between a professional team and a national team?

[Page]

This thread is a depressing testament as to how much more people value the aesthetics of their own politics over basic human decency.

[Big Bad Blue]

Two things can both be true, such as that she had whatever the Russians say she had and that they are using her and her case to embarrass and try to get something from the US. The latter is certainly true.

Putin is using her case to weaken US, and by extension Western, resolve to oppose his megalomaniac imperial expansionist regime, in Ukraine and everywhere else. He's making a mistake imo; the US has a long history (through its Department of State diplomats abroad) of being able to take care of both its political interests and the welfare of its citizens abroad.

If she can be sprung from a Moscow hoosegow without giving up anything of excessive value, that would be good. But the US should not, nor should it ever, weaken its efforts or resolve to oppose authoritarianism to release any number of its citizens wrongly imprisoned overseas.

Also keep in mind that if the shoe were on the other foot, Putin would not lift a finger to help anyone outside his coterie of kleptocrats out of any foreign jail.

[Page]

But the US should not, nor should it ever, weaken its efforts or resolve to oppose authoritarianism to release any number of its citizens wrongly imprisoned overseas.

Nobody is expecting America to lift every sanction just to get Britney Griner home. All that is needed is an arrangement that each side can spin as a victory. It's not a terribly difficult thing to pull off.

[Ethel mermania]

Seriously? Then what was your point?

Exactly what I said. That while you might think that her words show that she hates America, her actions show patriotism, and someone once told me that actions speak louder than words.

You are presuming her intent. We have no idea why she played on the team, but you came up with that

[Ethel mermania]

Au contre

..... I would propose that her actions of competing and winning for her country on the international stage speak louder of her patriotism than her words in opposition to the national anthem being played at WNBA matches and similar sporting events...

you perceive her as inadequately patriotic and therefore find it funny/deserved that she's getting tossed in the gulag over some vape cartridges and geopolitical bullshit... but see yourself as a patriot, I'm guessing?

I perceive it ironic that she claims America is not worth respecting and is a shithole, she gets stopped by a real shit hole, and now gets to find out the difference.

Deserved? No even though she is guilty, the punishment is disproportionate to the crime.

[Drongonia]

Lol owned

"But it was just a weed vape!!!"... which is illegal in Russia. It's been posted before but if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

[Ifreann]

Exactly what I said. That while you might think that her words show that she hates America, her actions show patriotism, and someone once told me that actions speak louder than words.

She only ever said words in opposition to the anthem being played at WNBA events?

I'm sure she's said many things over the course of her life. I mentioned that since that's what was in the article posted a bit up-thread.

---

Exactly what I said. That while you might think that her words show that she hates America, her actions show patriotism, and someone once told me that actions speak louder than words.

You are presuming her intent. We have no idea why she played on the team, but you came up with that

I'm not presuming intent at all. I said that her actions show patriotism, not that she intended patriotism by her actions. I don't know her intentions, and neither do you, and nor does anyone to whom she does not tell her intentions, and I'm sure you recall that words speak less loudly than actions.

---

Lol owned

"But it was just a weed vape!!!"... which is illegal in Russia. It's been posted before but if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

It's been posted before that possession of small quantities of hashish is an administrative offence, not a crime, punishable by a small fine or 15 days in jail.

[Elwher]

Who fucking cares what anyone expects? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? She's being unjustly incarcerated by a totalitarian dictatorship.

She broke the law and is incarcerated for it. How is that unjust?

[Elwher]

Lol owned

"But it was just a weed vape!!!"... which is illegal in Russia. It's been posted before but if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

It's been posted before that possession of small quantities of hashish is an administrative offence, not a crime, punishable by a small fine or 15 days in jail.

But she was not busted for possession but for smuggling, a more serious offense.

[Senkaku]

Lol owned

"But it was just a weed vape!!!"... which is illegal in Russia. It's been posted before but if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

She broke the law and is incarcerated for it. How is that unjust?

On a daily basis, how many people in possession of weed vapes would you guess are walking free somewhere in the Russian Federation? I'm guessing most of them aren't minor celebrities who the Kremlin thinks they can leverage to get an arms dealer back, eh?

[Necroghastia]

She broke the law and is incarcerated for it. How is that unjust?

Because the law itself is unjust. Duh.

[Elwher]

Lol owned

"But it was just a weed vape!!!"... which is illegal in Russia. It's been posted before but if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.

She broke the law and is incarcerated for it. How is that unjust?

On a daily basis, how many people in possession of weed vapes would you guess are walking free somewhere in the Russian Federation? I'm guessing most of them aren't minor celebrities who the Kremlin thinks they can leverage to get an arms dealer back, eh?

Is it your point that any law which does not catch 100% of the violators is unjust? Never mind that she was carrying it across the border, not walking around in Russia.

[Elwher]

She broke the law and is incarcerated for it. How is that unjust?

Because the law itself is unjust. Duh.

You do not believe that a country has a right to determine what drugs are legal?

[Necroghastia]

Because the law itself is unjust. Duh.

You do not believe that a country has a right to determine what drugs are legal?

I believe that if they do there should be extensive justification, and prison sentences are out of the question. No such justification exists for marijuana - especially when it's not even the actual damn plant.

[Senkaku]

On a daily basis, how many people in possession of weed vapes would you guess are walking free somewhere in the Russian Federation? I'm guessing most of them aren't minor celebrities who the Kremlin thinks they can leverage to get an arms dealer back, eh?

Is it your point that any law which does not catch 100% of the violators is unjust? Never mind that she was carrying it across the border, not walking around in Russia.

I'm sorry, is your theory here that she had acquired vape cartridges in Russia and was smuggling them out for the lucrative Russian vape cartridge export market? They didn't give a fuck when she presumably brought them in-- the law has nothing to do with any element of this case, it's just a fig leaf being used to justify a political detention. If the Russians gave a fuck about this, there'd be dozens of oligarchs' kids and pop stars and major league hockey players in the gulag by now. Pursing your lips and wagging your finger and going "well, I guess she shouldn't have broken the law :^)))" in this case is just going to unbelievable lengths to justify your dislike of the woman.

Because the law itself is unjust. Duh.

You do not believe that a country has a right to determine what drugs are legal?

Why are you so hot to defend the criminalization of a plant?

[Elwher]

Is it your point that any law which does not catch 100% of the violators is unjust? Never mind that she was carrying it across the border, not walking around in Russia.

I'm sorry, is your theory here that she had acquired vape cartridges in Russia and was smuggling them out for the lucrative Russian vape cartridge export market? They didn't give a fuck when she presumably brought them in-- the law has nothing to do with any element of this case, it's just a fig leaf being used to justify a political detention. If the Russians gave a fuck about this, there'd be dozens of oligarchs' kids and pop stars and major league hockey players in the gulag by now. Pursing your lips and wagging your finger and going "well, I guess she shouldn't have broken the law :^)))" in this case is just going to unbelievable lengths to justify your dislike of the woman.

Actually, until this happened I had never heard of her. My dislike is for the fuss over a person who broke the law and is in jail for it. If she was attempting civil disobedience to get the law changed that would be one thing, but crossing the border with an illegal substance because you didn't care is a different matter.

You do not believe that a country has a right to determine what drugs are legal?

Why are you so hot to defend the criminalization of a plant?

I am not defending the law but the right of a government to make and enforce a law, no matter how stupid(which this one is).

[Elwher]

You do not believe that a country has a right to determine what drugs are legal?

I believe that if they do there should be extensive justification, and prison sentences are out of the question. No such justification exists for marijuana - especially when it's not even the actual damn plant.

In a perfect world, yes. However, I do not believe there is a single country that does not have laws generating prison sentences for at least some substances.

[Necroghastia]

I believe that if they do there should be extensive justification, and prison sentences are out of the question. No such justification exists for marijuana - especially when it's not even the actual damn plant.

In a perfect world, yes. However, I do not believe there is a single country that does not have laws generating prison sentences for at least some substances.

And that is unjust.

[Senkaku]

I'm sorry, is your theory here that she had acquired vape cartridges in Russia and was smuggling them out for the lucrative Russian vape cartridge export market? They didn't give a fuck when she presumably brought them in-- the law has nothing to do with any element of this case, it's just a fig leaf being used to justify a political detention. If the Russians gave a fuck about this, there'd be dozens of oligarchs' kids and pop stars and major league hockey players in the gulag by now. Pursing your lips and wagging your finger and going "well, I guess she shouldn't have broken the law :^)))" in this case is just going to unbelievable lengths to justify your dislike of the woman.

Actually, until this happened I had never heard of her. My dislike is for the fuss over a person who broke the law and is in jail for it. If she was attempting civil disobedience to get the law changed that would be one thing, but crossing the border with an illegal substance because you didn't care is a different matter.

She isn't in jail because she broke the law, she's in jail because she seemed like a potentially useful political hostage. Crossing the border with a weed vape may be a crime in Russia, but it's one of those laws that exists to be enforced when the state finds it politically useful to target an individual who happens to do it. This isn't that complicated of a concept, and I'm not sure why you and others are doing this whole aw-shucks-I-guess-that's-just-the-rules routine. Arbitrary arrests pretty much always come with legal fig leaves (sort of definitionally, once they turn into prosecutions); that doesn't mean they aren't arbitrary.

Why are you so hot to defend the criminalization of a plant?

I am not defending the law but the right of a government to make and enforce a law, no matter how stupid(which this one is).

Why should I, or anyone, acknowledge the "right" of the Russian government to do anything? Rights are constructed by entities with the capability to enforce them, as the Russians are demonstrating as we speak vis-a-vis the rights to national self-determination and territorial integrity.

[Ethel mermania]

Actually, until this happened I had never heard of her. My dislike is for the fuss over a person who broke the law and is in jail for it. If she was attempting civil disobedience to get the law changed that would be one thing, but crossing the border with an illegal substance because you didn't care is a different matter.

She isn't in jail because she broke the law, she's in jail because she seemed like a potentially useful political hostage. Crossing the border with a weed vape may be a crime in Russia, but it's one of those laws that exists to be enforced when the state finds it politically useful to target an individual who happens to do it. This isn't that complicated of a concept, and I'm not sure why you and others are doing this whole aw-shucks-I-guess-that's-just-the-rules routine. Arbitrary arrests pretty much always come with legal fig leaves (sort of definitionally, once they turn into prosecutions); that doesn't mean they aren't arbitrary.

I am not defending the law but the right of a government to make and enforce a law, no matter how stupid(which this one is).

Why should I, or anyone, acknowledge the "right" of the Russian government to do anything? Rights are constructed by entities with the capability to enforce them, as the Russians are demonstrating as we speak vis-a-vis the rights to national self-determination and territorial integrity.

The notion that this happened because Russia is crap. 10 years ago You cross the US border with a couple vapes and you got caught you were doing jail time, not 10 years, but they were prosecuting. the company we were traveling for told us if caught we were on own, US customs don't play.

[Senkaku]

She isn't in jail because she broke the law, she's in jail because she seemed like a potentially useful political hostage. Crossing the border with a weed vape may be a crime in Russia, but it's one of those laws that exists to be enforced when the state finds it politically useful to target an individual who happens to do it. This isn't that complicated of a concept, and I'm not sure why you and others are doing this whole aw-shucks-I-guess-that's-just-the-rules routine. Arbitrary arrests pretty much always come with legal fig leaves (sort of definitionally, once they turn into prosecutions); that doesn't mean they aren't arbitrary.


Why should I, or anyone, acknowledge the "right" of the Russian government to do anything? Rights are constructed by entities with the capability to enforce them, as the Russians are demonstrating as we speak vis-a-vis the rights to national self-determination and territorial integrity.

The notion that this happened because Russia is crap. 10 years ago You cross the US border with a couple vapes and you got caught you were doing jail time, not 10 years, but they were prosecuting. the company we were traveling for told us if caught we were on own, US customs don't play.

That's great that that's what a company told you about US customs 10 years ago, but I'm struggling to see how that has anything to do with anything I just said. Do you honestly believe her arrest is totally unrelated to current geopolitical events and happened purely because the customs guys at Sheremetyevo are just so dang good at their job of finding people's vapes?