If You Can Read Þis

[Eahland]

Þis may surprise you to learn, but once upon a time þe English language had a letter to represent þe combined 't' and 'h' sound we see in words like 'faþer', 'moþer', 'wreaþ', 'wealþ', etc. Þis letter is referred to as "þorn" and in þis þread I would like to gauge interest on the reintroduction of þe letter þorn to Modern English.

Fæder, modor, ƿræd, ƿela, and sƿa forð. None of eoƿer examples ƿere spelled ƿiþ þorn, or even eð.

Personally, I þinc ƿe scolde bring bæc ƿynn. Þinc about it... "ƿynn-ƿynn-ƿynn", far sƿifter to say ðan "double-you double-you double-you". Ðæt's even longer ðan just saying "World Wide Web"!

[Sordhau]

Þis may surprise you to learn, but once upon a time þe English language had a letter to represent þe combined 't' and 'h' sound we see in words like 'faþer', 'moþer', 'wreaþ', 'wealþ', etc. Þis letter is referred to as "þorn" and in þis þread I would like to gauge interest on the reintroduction of þe letter þorn to Modern English.

Fæder, modor, ƿræd, ƿela, and sƿa forð. None of eoƿer examples ƿere spelled ƿiþ þorn, or even eð.

Personally, I þinc ƿe scolde bring bæc ƿynn. Þinc about it... "ƿynn-ƿynn-ƿynn", far swifter to say ðan "double-you double-you double-you". Ðæt's even longer ðan just saying "World Wide Web"!

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Slow down there, Offa! This isn't the Nerd Olympics!

[Isle of Westland]

Yeah go on, it'll be right laugh

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
si þin nama gehalgod
tobecume þin rice
gewurþe þin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us to dæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele

soþlice.

[Continental Free States]

Þis may surprise you to learn, but once upon a time þe English language had a letter to represent þe combined 't' and 'h' sound we see in words like 'faþer', 'moþer', 'wreaþ', 'wealþ', etc. Þis letter is referred to as "þorn" and in þis þread I would like to gauge interest on the reintroduction of þe letter þorn to Modern English.

Let me start by asking why it is necessary for the English language to represent an entire sound by smashing two letters togeþer when it already had a letter that represented þat exact sound? It seems pointlessly regressive and redundant to drop þe letter þorn. Yes, languages evolve, but in þis instance I would say þat English evolved incorrectly and þis can be blamed on French. Perhaps it is French's fault, perhaps it is not; it doesn't matter. It will be blamed regardless. It is no secret þat þe Normans ruined þe English language by mixing it wiþ French to create the abomination þat once was Middle English and later became the abomination þat is Modern English. Was þis change surely the result of Norman import of French because þey were too lazy to learn the local dialect? Who cares? It's þeir fault regardless. Let þe reintroduction of þe letter þorn be þe first step toward total de-Latinization of þe English language, to þe benefit of all people!

But of course you must be asking yourself, "Is þis really necessary?" To which I would say: no, of course it isn't necessary; but a change need not be necessary in order to be implemented. As it stands we have absolutely noþing to lose by reintroducing þorn to the English language. It is not as if such a small change would present any kind of difficulty. By now, after having read þis far, you have undoubtedly begun to associate þorn with the more familiar "th" sound you're used to. In þis you can see it is easy to learn how to use þe letter, and since no vocal change has been added to þe language, it becomes a matter of triviality in remembering to use þorn instead of "th". I myself have admittedly slipped up here and þere while typing all of þis by spelling words 'normally' instead of using þorn, but "with practice comes perfect" as þey say! It would be a spelling difference so simple and easy to learn and teach þat it would be equivalent to how Americans spell words correctly and the British (and þose influenced by þem) feel the irritable need to place an 'O' before every 'U' (or a 'U' after every 'O') so a word looks even more French - even when it isn't! And yet still the apparent spelling is so subtly different þat one still knows þat "honor" is pronounced the same as "honour" whether one is using the correct, Germanic spelling or the incorrect, Gallophilic spelling.

In short it is undeniable truþ þat þe English language loses noþing of particular wealþ by reintroducing þe letter þorn. But what say ȝe, NSG? Should þorn make a comeback?

Thorn and many other letters were abandoned not because of 'English latinization', as they were still in use in Middle and even early Modern English, but dropped because writing them on a press was hard, considering nobody else was using them. With that in mind, yeah bringing back Englisc would be cool. Probably.

[Sordhau]

Þis may surprise you to learn, but once upon a time þe English language had a letter to represent þe combined 't' and 'h' sound we see in words like 'faþer', 'moþer', 'wreaþ', 'wealþ', etc. Þis letter is referred to as "þorn" and in þis þread I would like to gauge interest on the reintroduction of þe letter þorn to Modern English.

Let me start by asking why it is necessary for the English language to represent an entire sound by smashing two letters togeþer when it already had a letter that represented þat exact sound? It seems pointlessly regressive and redundant to drop þe letter þorn. Yes, languages evolve, but in þis instance I would say þat English evolved incorrectly and þis can be blamed on French. Perhaps it is French's fault, perhaps it is not; it doesn't matter. It will be blamed regardless. It is no secret þat þe Normans ruined þe English language by mixing it wiþ French to create the abomination þat once was Middle English and later became the abomination þat is Modern English. Was þis change surely the result of Norman import of French because þey were too lazy to learn the local dialect? Who cares? It's þeir fault regardless. Let þe reintroduction of þe letter þorn be þe first step toward total de-Latinization of þe English language, to þe benefit of all people!

But of course you must be asking yourself, "Is þis really necessary?" To which I would say: no, of course it isn't necessary; but a change need not be necessary in order to be implemented. As it stands we have absolutely noþing to lose by reintroducing þorn to the English language. It is not as if such a small change would present any kind of difficulty. By now, after having read þis far, you have undoubtedly begun to associate þorn with the more familiar "th" sound you're used to. In þis you can see it is easy to learn how to use þe letter, and since no vocal change has been added to þe language, it becomes a matter of triviality in remembering to use þorn instead of "th". I myself have admittedly slipped up here and þere while typing all of þis by spelling words 'normally' instead of using þorn, but "with practice comes perfect" as þey say! It would be a spelling difference so simple and easy to learn and teach þat it would be equivalent to how Americans spell words correctly and the British (and þose influenced by þem) feel the irritable need to place an 'O' before every 'U' (or a 'U' after every 'O') so a word looks even more French - even when it isn't! And yet still the apparent spelling is so subtly different þat one still knows þat "honor" is pronounced the same as "honour" whether one is using the correct, Germanic spelling or the incorrect, Gallophilic spelling.

In short it is undeniable truþ þat þe English language loses noþing of particular wealþ by reintroducing þe letter þorn. But what say ȝe, NSG? Should þorn make a comeback?

Thorn and many other letters were abandoned not because of 'English latinization', as they were still in use in Middle and even early Modern English, but dropped because writing them on a typewriter was hard, considering nobody else was using them. With that in mind, yeah bringing back Englisc would be cool. Probably.

I don't care. I'm blaming the Normans anyway.

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

It's a thorny issue. So thorny, thorny, thorny, thorny.

[The Holy Therns]

Bring back dead things for no reason whatsoever?

Nah.

[Ethel mermania]

Bring back dead things for no reason whatsoever?

Nah.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QcbR1J_4ICg

Just sayin

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

þat poll title þo.

as for þe question, yes. really, it’d make sense to have one letter per sound. it’d make English a lot easier to learn.

þæt pōl titûl þō.

æz fûr þû kwesʧûn, yes, riûli, ît’d māk sens tu hæv wûn letûr pûr sãnd. ît’d māk iŋglîʃ û lät iziûr tu lûrn.

[Senkaku]

We should just ditch this writing stuff and go back to having an oral tradition, the Sumerians made a terrible mistake letting us permanently record our thoughts and it's all been downhill from there

[Great Heathen Air Force]

The internet is for Þorn.

[Sordhau]

The internet is for Þorn.

God Himself looked at this post and thought: "Marvelous."

[Communist Beijing Must be China]

Just make ampersand a letter again

at least ampersand is a symbol

[Diarcesia]

We should just ditch this writing stuff and go back to having an oral tradition, the Sumerians made a terrible mistake letting us permanently record our thoughts and it's all been downhill from there

The invention of the wheel and its consequences have been a downhill trajectory for the human race.

[Abarri]

þat poll title þo.

as for þe question, yes. really, it’d make sense to have one letter per sound. it’d make English a lot easier to learn.

þæt pōl titûl þō.

æz fûr þû kwesʧûn, yes, riûli, ît’d māk sens tu hæv wûn letûr pûr sãnd. ît’d māk iŋglîʃ û lät iziûr tu lûrn.

If all languages tried to just use the IPA, that would be weird, yes?

[Communist Beijing Must be China]

We should just ditch this writing stuff and go back to having an oral tradition, the Sumerians made a terrible mistake letting us permanently record our thoughts and it's all been downhill from there

The invention of the wheel and its consequences have been a downhill trajectory for the human race.

If it weren't for the weel* we would be stuck banging rocks together.

*ah crikey i spelled wheel wrong

[Untecna]

þat poll title þo.

as for þe question, yes. really, it’d make sense to have one letter per sound. it’d make English a lot easier to learn.

þæt pōl titûl þō.

æz fûr þû kwesʧûn, yes, riûli, ît’d māk sens tu hæv wûn letûr pûr sãnd. ît’d māk iŋglîʃ û lät iziûr tu lûrn.

If all languages tried to just use the IPA, that would be weird, yes?

It might look confusing, but given that they all have different sounds, and its one representation per sound, we could easily make any word and know how to pronounce it immediately.

Within some time, it'd just be like learning your language in school.

[The United Penguin Commonwealth]

þat poll title þo.

as for þe question, yes. really, it’d make sense to have one letter per sound. it’d make English a lot easier to learn.

þæt pōl titûl þō.

æz fûr þû kwesʧûn, yes, riûli, ît’d māk sens tu hæv wûn letûr pûr sãnd. ît’d māk iŋglîʃ û lät iziûr tu lûrn.

If all languages tried to just use the IPA, that would be weird, yes?

I wasn’t actually using the IPA, I was using an (admittedly stupid) “romanization” (if that word applies here). it might look like the IPA because of the esh symbol (couldn’t think of a different way to represent sh), but I’m not.

regardless, I think it’s weird that English uses three sounds for the letter o. hell, “ough” has like seven pronounciations.

[Ordo Theutonicorum]

In my opinion, it's weird to place Old English letters in a language using in 21st-century. By the way, the modern German language has far more combined words than Mittelhochdeutsch, some of them made a single word reallylong and it's hard to print on menus or store signs. But who would have a barrier to understanding these words?

p.s. If you need an example of the comparison between Mittelhochdeutsch and modern German language, just check some poem wrote in the High Middle Ages-Those written by Walther von Vogelweide are great (Special recommendation: Palästinalied). If you need a long modern German word, and I'll give you something like, 'Selbstverständlich'.

[Page]

I'm more in favor of trimming down the English language by getting rid of the letters C, Q, and X, all 3 of which are redundant. Though this is a hard sell because it makes words like seks less seksy.

But I do accept the premise that the th sound is ubiquitous enough to warrant a letter of its own.

[The Archregimancy]

WHILEIAPPLAVDTHESVGGESTIONFROMTHEOP
IDONOTTHINKITGOESFARENOVGHTHEREALSO
LVTIONTOOVRORTHOGRAPHIKPROBLEMSISTO
RETVRNTOTHEROMANVIRTVUESOFALLKAPITA
LEPIGRAPHYWITHOUTPVNKTVATIONORTHELE
TTERSEASILYWRITTENWITHVKORSANDWRAPP
INGTEXTONTOTHENEXTLINEFORKONVENIENS

[Reploid Productions]

WHILEIAPPLAVDTHESVGGESTIONFROMTHEOP
IDONOTTHINKITGOESFARENOVGHTHEREALSO
LVTIONTOOVRORTHOGRAPHIKPROBLEMSISTO
RETVRNTOTHEROMANVIRTVUESOFALLKAPITA
LEPIGRAPHYWITHOUTPVNKTVATIONORTHELE
TTERSEASILYWRITTENWITHVKORSANDWRAPP
INGTEXTONTOTHENEXTLINEFORKONVENIENS

Arch, y u do þis?

[Duvniask]

Are you not sometimes using þorn where you should instead be using eð? For example Ðe faþer laid ðhis wreaþ.

Okay Arch, we get it, you're the bigger nerd here. No need to rub it in.

I claim the right to also be referred to as a big nerd on the level of Arch.

Eth is still in use in Icelandic, Faroese and Elfdalian, while thorn is also still used in Icelandic.

Now let me be a pedantic.

Are you not sometimes using þorn where you should instead be using eð? For example 'Ðe faþer laid ðis wreaþ'.

You're right, although it's gotta be spelled like faðer if that's what we're going for (although I think you might've realised this?). After all, "father" uses the th- sound of "the", "then", "this" and not the th- sound from "thick, thug, thin, Thor", which is where thorn comes in.

Naturally, in Old English both thorn and eth could be used for both sounds interchangeably, but that is stupid, so let's do the right thing and use them for different sounds - English-speaking people simply cannot fucking help themselves when it comes to making spelling ambiguous.

þorn is like my favorite letter. i'm so happy þis is getting more attention.

edit: alſo, return to þe ſecond-beſt letter from þe old timeſ.

It's "ðis is getting more attention", if we're going to make things properly phonetically distinct. Although I guess it's not wrong in the sense that earlier forms of English used them interchangeably. See above.

As for the second bit, it really should be: "alſo, return to ðe ſecond-beſt letter from ðe old times". Normal s is used at the ending of words. And "the" = ðe. Somewhat of a tangent, but the reason you see pseudo-Early Modern English phraseology like "Ye olde" is actually because the lettering used [ yͤ ], was an alternate way of writing the eth sound. So for anyone thinking "ye" is pronounced with, well, the y from "year", you are wrong. It's said the exact same way as normal "the".

[Communist Beijing Must be China]

WHILEIAPPLAVDTHESVGGESTIONFROMTHEOP
IDONOTTHINKITGOESFARENOVGHTHEREALSO
LVTIONTOOVRORTHOGRAPHIKPROBLEMSISTO
RETVRNTOTHEROMANVIRTVUESOFALLKAPITA
LEPIGRAPHYWITHOUTPVNKTVATIONORTHELE
TTERSEASILYWRITTENWITHVKORSANDWRAPP
INGTEXTONTOTHENEXTLINEFORKONVENIENS

Do you want it as the roman language or the roman alphabet? I don't understand why anyone would want to have the roman language as the universal language. It's so different from english.

[Abarri]

If all languages tried to just use the IPA, that would be weird, yes?

I wasn’t actually using the IPA, I was using an (admittedly stupid) “romanization” (if that word applies here). it might look like the IPA because of the esh symbol (couldn’t think of a different way to represent sh), but I’m not.

regardless, I think it’s weird that English uses three sounds for the letter o. hell, “ough” has like seven pronounciations.

Oh, I'm aware that yours was not IPA.

As for your second point, yes, the same a-lotta-vowel-sounds trope makes other languages difficult as well (think of Danish).

I'm more in favor of trimming down the English language by getting rid of the letters C, Q, and X, all 3 of which are redundant. Though this is a hard sell because it makes words like seks less seksy.

But I do accept the premise that the th sound is ubiquitous enough to warrant a letter of its own.

Are you in favor of dropping silent letters from spelling too?