Another Mass Shooting...In Norway

[Big Jim P]

Two dead is not a mass shooting by current American definitions.

Yes it is. DOJ definitions say that it happens when more than three people are shot, and nearly two dozen were shot in this case.

I stand corrected. I was going by kills, not shots.

[Sordhau]

Never mind that it's missing the point entirely. For the first 700/800-ish years of it's existence holy war was not a thing in Christianity. This didn't change until Charlemagne warred against the pagan Saxons, and even then this war was in retaliation of attacks on Frankish territory by Saxon raiders. This trend of 'holy retaliation' continues up until the crusades.

Jesus didn't wage or call for holy war. Neither did Abraham or Moses. Neither did Zoroaster or Buddha. Muhammad and Muhammad alone stands as the only prophetic figure of a modern religion who was simultaneously a warlord who told his followers to spread the faith which, given his own violent example, meant holy war was inevitable. Whether the Qur'an itself condemns holy war is irrelevant; Muhammad set a precedent, and as prophet his actions can't be ignored - which leads to the conundrum of whether or not it is right for Muslims to emulate or condemn their own prophet. The former seems more acceptable than the latter, however.

Never mind that the Hadiths also support holy war, and rejecting the Hadiths is to Islam what rejecting the Church Fathers is to Christianity. You can do it, sure, but you're probably a heretic if you do.

Religions kill as much people as guns do.

Apples to oranges.

Guns are tools and are thus morally neutral; religion instructs on behavior, etiquette, honor, and values - the moral alignment of which is dependent on the perspective of individuals, organizations, societies, and polities.

It is fundamentally true that, yes, neither guns nor religion can kill a person. Yet unlike guns religion has the ability to influence the decisions of a person, for good or for evil. It is one thing if the religion's teachings/traditions are being ignored or corrupted for the sake of consistency in evil deeds, it is another if there is a precedent for these evil deeds set in said teachings/traditions. There is ample precedent for the persecution and destruction of unbelievers in Islam because these are actions which were carried out by the Islamic Prophet, who as a prophet is held to a higher standard than that of others; after all if a man chosen by God can wage holy war, take slaves, marry children, desecrate temples, and commit genocide then how can these things be immoral?

[Kingdom of Snoreway]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, 2 people were killed and 21 more wounded after an Iranian-Norwegian Islamic extremist opened fire in the famous London Pub, a celebrated gay nightclub, in Oslo.

Another terrorist attack against people just wanting to live their lives. I will not succumb to outright Islamophobia, I will, however, say, that this is a terrible case of religious extremism that actually could've been prevented as the PST knew the man had mental health issues and was in Islamist circles for seven years before this morning. In addition, Norwegian Police services, traditionally unarmed, will now be armed until further notice(this happened after the Oslo attack 10 years ago as well, and the police were disarmed when things calmed down).

There's my take, how about yours? This will be a place to share news and info, etc.

The investigation is ongoing. While it is being treated as a potential islamist terrorist attack, the perpetrator has not spoken about motive yet. The police are also looking into his mental health, as he has a long history of mental illness. The one doesn't preclude the other, of course, but it's still too soon to conclude, as you seem to do. It's actually too early to conclude that it was an anti-gay attack as well, though that's the most likely motive at present.The two people who were killed were sitting at a different pub, which he opened fire on first.

I'm curious how you think it could have been prevented.

[Kingdom of Snoreway]

Is there any news going into what firearms were used in the incident? Depending on how or what happened, it'd answer questions about gun control. So far as who wins and who loses within Norway.

Two unregistered weapons, a handgun and a rifle, both apparently older models. ("Not modern", I think the police said)

[Kingdom of Snoreway]

It should also be mentioned that the yearly Pride parade was cancelled due to security concerns, but that hundreds of people spontaneously took to the streets and walked the route - with a police escort - even if the official march was postponed until further notice.

In addition, it's worth mentioning that the perpetrator was chased down by unarmed people, and was being subdued by them until the police arrested him 4 minutes after the shooting had started.

[Shrillland]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, 2 people were killed and 21 more wounded after an Iranian-Norwegian Islamic extremist opened fire in the famous London Pub, a celebrated gay nightclub, in Oslo.

Another terrorist attack against people just wanting to live their lives. I will not succumb to outright Islamophobia, I will, however, say, that this is a terrible case of religious extremism that actually could've been prevented as the PST knew the man had mental health issues and was in Islamist circles for seven years before this morning. In addition, Norwegian Police services, traditionally unarmed, will now be armed until further notice(this happened after the Oslo attack 10 years ago as well, and the police were disarmed when things calmed down).

There's my take, how about yours? This will be a place to share news and info, etc.

The investigation is ongoing. While it is being treated as a potential islamist terrorist attack, the perpetrator has not spoken about motive yet. The police are also looking into his mental health, as he has a long history of mental illness. The one doesn't preclude the other, of course, but it's still too soon to conclude, as you seem to do. It's actually too early to conclude that it was an anti-gay attack as well, though that's the most likely motive at present.The two people who were killed were sitting at a different pub, which he opened fire on first.

I'm curious how you think it could have been prevented.

You are correct. Given what we know, it's probably not likely that it could've been. It just seemed with what was known at the time, that there might have been ways to keep him from getting his guns, for example.

[Existential Cats]

Then I will. The Islamic religion celebrates and encourages violence against nonbelievers. It's own prophet was a warlord who spread his faith by the sword so holy war has all the precedent in the world for Islam. No other (living) religion has that same precedent.

Eh, I've met a fair amount of Muslims, and none of them have slipped pipe bombs under the table while we drink ayran.

This guy's Iranian, and Sordhau, I know you're familiar with the US-backed coup against Mosaddegh and Iran's subsequent backsliding to reactionary politics, a backlash against Western imperialism. Islam's not as pacific as Christianity, but anyone familiar with both theology and history will know that religious types seldom follow their religions to a T and are more motivated by political or socio-economic factors. Islamic extremism has less to do with some supposed inherent violence of Islam and more to do with the collapse of Arab socialism, Saudi propagation of Wahhabism, the West's historically poor relations with the Middle East and their failure to integrate Muslim immigrants/refugees, etc.

[Big Jim P]

It should also be mentioned that the yearly Pride parade was cancelled due to security concerns, but that hundreds of people spontaneously took to the streets and walked the route - with a police escort - even if the official march was postponed until further notice.

In addition, it's worth mentioning that the perpetrator was chased down by unarmed people, and was being subdued by them until the police arrested him 4 minutes after the shooting had started.

More courage shown than by the Uvalde cops.

[Sordhau]

Eh, I've met a fair amount of Muslims, and none of them have slipped pipe bombs under the table while we drink ayran.

That's probably because most Muslims are human beings with a conscious, something I notably never disputed.

This guy's Iranian, and Sordhau, I know you're familiar with the US-backed coup against Mosaddegh and Iran's subsequent backsliding to reactionary politics, a backlash against Western imperialism.

Irrelevant.

Islam's not as pacific as Christianity,

While Christian teachings can easily be used to argue in favor of pacifism the Christian religion itself isn't necessarily pacifistic, but that's a debate better suited for the CDT.

but anyone familiar with both theology and history will know that religious types seldom follow their religions to a T and are more motivated by political or socio-economic factors.

This is half-true, at least.

Islamic extremism has less to do with some supposed inherent violence of Islam

It is not so much that violence is inherent in Islam but more that it is far more difficult to argue non-violence from within the framework of Islam than it is from within the framework of other religions. This is because while violence is not inherent to the religion itself violence was intrinsic to the foundation and spread of Islam, so much so that separating the two takes a great deal of effort to justify. Even those Muslims who advocate non-violence cannot help but celebrate the violent conquests of the Caliphate.

and more to do with the collapse of Arab socialism,

Arab Fascism you mean. Ba'athism has more common with Mussolini's Italy than with any Left-wing movement, especially the kind practiced by Saddam Hussein.

Saudi propagation of Wahhabism,

Which is a uniquely Sunni phenomenon, failing to explain the 'extremism' supported by Shia Iran.

the West's historically poor relations with the Middle East

Brought in part by the unprovoked violent conquest of Christian lands by the young Caliphate.

and their failure to integrate Muslim immigrants/refugees, etc.

It is notably quite difficult to integrate people who think you're a lesser being undeserving of life just by being an infidel.

[Big Jim P]

Eh, I've met a fair amount of Muslims, and none of them have slipped pipe bombs under the table while we drink ayran.

That's probably because most Muslims are human beings with a conscious, something I notably never disputed.

This guy's Iranian, and Sordhau, I know you're familiar with the US-backed coup against Mosaddegh and Iran's subsequent backsliding to reactionary politics, a backlash against Western imperialism.

Irrelevant.

Islam's not as pacific as Christianity,

While Christian teachings can easily be used to argue in favor of pacifism the Christian religion itself isn't necessarily pacifistic, but that's a debate better suited for the CDT.

but anyone familiar with both theology and history will know that religious types seldom follow their religions to a T and are more motivated by political or socio-economic factors.

This is half-true, at least.

Islamic extremism has less to do with some supposed inherent violence of Islam

It is not so much that violence is inherent in Islam but more that it is far more difficult to argue non-violence from within the framework of Islam than it is from within the framework of other religions. This is because while violence is not inherent to the religion itself violence was intrinsic to the foundation and spread of Islam, so much so that separating the two takes a great deal of effort to justify. Even those Muslims who advocate non-violence cannot help but celebrate the violent conquests of the Caliphate.

and more to do with the collapse of Arab socialism,

Arab Fascism you mean. Ba'athism has more common with Mussolini's Italy than with any Left-wing movement, especially the kind practiced by Saddam Hussein.

Saudi propagation of Wahhabism,

Which is a uniquely Sunni phenomenon, failing to explain the 'extremism' supported by Shia Iran.

the West's historically poor relations with the Middle East

Brought in part by the unprovoked violent conquest of Christian lands by the young Caliphate.

and their failure to integrate Muslim immigrants/refugees, etc.

It is notably quite difficult to integrate people who think you're a lesser being undeserving of life just by being an infidel.

Indeed. Muslims need to get over themselves, They, and their faith is in no way special or worthy of special consideration.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

In addition, it's worth mentioning that the perpetrator was chased down by unarmed people, and was being subdued by them until the police arrested him 4 minutes after the shooting had started.

I admire the culture of a people who are willing to risk being the last one to die if that means putting an end to the killing. The comparison to the Texan police from the last newsworthy American mass shooting, already made by a previous poster in this thread, is very apt.

Perhaps this is one of the pillars that keep Norwegian democracy healthy.

[Ifreann]

Ignore the bits of the Quran that explicitly say that spreading it by the sword is un-Islamic. And all the violent spreading done by Christians throughout history.

Call us back when Christians start another Crusade. Then you might be able to use them as a scapegoat here and not make a fucking stupid comparison like you currently are.

Self-described "Christian fascist" movement is trying to sabotage LGBTQ Pride Month

[Haganham]

In addition, it's worth mentioning that the perpetrator was chased down by unarmed people, and was being subdued by them until the police arrested him 4 minutes after the shooting had started.

I admire the culture of a people who are willing to risk being the last one to die if that means putting an end to the killing. The comparison to the Texan police from the last newsworthy American mass shooting, already made by a previous poster in this thread, is very apt.

Perhaps this is one of the pillars that keep Norwegian democracy healthy.

I garuntee you there were many people willing to do the same in texas, the police just would not let them.

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Someone of Iranian heritage would likely be Shi'a as opposed to the usual Sunni Islamist terrorists?

[Shrillland]

The guy who did it refuses to be interrogated unless the recordings of his interrogation sessions are publicly broadcast

At this point, NRK and the Norwegian Press should just follow NZ's principle and purge his name from public view, leaving it available only in the historical sense.

[Great Heathen Air Force]

Seems that the guy was taken down by unarmed civilians.

Who are apparently quite capable when the police don't arrest them instead of the shooter.

[Big Jim P]

Seems that the guy was taken down by unarmed civilians.

Who are apparently quite capable when the police don't arrest them instead of the shooter.

More courage shown than by the Uvalde cops.

[Torisakia]

I don't know what's worse: this event happening in such a nice country like Norway, or the fact that the perpetrator will get (at most) 21 years in "prison" which is actually just college dorm.

[Betoni]

Religions kill as much people as guns do.

Apples to oranges.

Guns are tools and are thus morally neutral; religion instructs on behavior, etiquette, honor, and values - the moral alignment of which is dependent on the perspective of individuals, organizations, societies, and polities.

It is fundamentally true that, yes, neither guns nor religion can kill a person. Yet unlike guns religion has the ability to influence the decisions of a person, for good or for evil. It is one thing if the religion's teachings/traditions are being ignored or corrupted for the sake of consistency in evil deeds, it is another if there is a precedent for these evil deeds set in said teachings/traditions. There is ample precedent for the persecution and destruction of unbelievers in Islam because these are actions which were carried out by the Islamic Prophet, who as a prophet is held to a higher standard than that of others; after all if a man chosen by God can wage holy war, take slaves, marry children, desecrate temples, and commit genocide then how can these things be immoral?

You don't think the fact that they had a gun influenced the decision to use a gun? You can go all but Islam bad but fundamentally it is the exact same argument you make for why gungrabbers are bad, as you said yourself.

[Shrillland]

I don't know what's worse: this event happening in such a nice country like Norway, or the fact that the perpetrator will get (at most) 21 years in "prison" which is actually just college dorm.

No, just like Brevik, he'll get 21 years and then indefinite five-year renewals. They know he's not the repentant type and he has mental issues, so they'll just hand out extensions until death.

[Torisakia]

I don't know what's worse: this event happening in such a nice country like Norway, or the fact that the perpetrator will get (at most) 21 years in "prison" which is actually just college dorm.

No, just like Brevik, he'll get 21 years and then indefinite five-year renewals. They know he's not the repentant type and he has mental issues, so they'll just hand out extensions until death.

Still doesn't change the fact that he'll be living in a glorified college dorm.

[Betoni]

No, just like Brevik, he'll get 21 years and then indefinite five-year renewals. They know he's not the repentant type and he has mental issues, so they'll just hand out extensions until death.

Still doesn't change the fact that he'll be living in a glorified college dorm.

Yeah, Norways penal system really should be modelled more after the US system. Just look at the results. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-does-norway-have-recidivism-rate-20-tammy-holwell

[The Reformed American Republic]

To be blunt, I'm not surprised it was a radical Muslim.

[Existential Cats]

That's probably because most Muslims are human beings with a conscious, something I notably never disputed.

Eh, just curious, and besides I recall one of your old accounts boasted "Islamophobic" in its sig, and you just now recently said you'd be Islamophobic in response to Shrillland's comment. I don't know that many people who would boast of themselves as "homophobic" would have high opinions of most gays, for instance.

Irrelevant.

It's not if you're trying to understand to better understand the route cause of Iranian Islamic extremism.

While Christian teachings can easily be used to argue in favor of pacifism the Christian religion itself isn't necessarily pacifistic, but that's a debate better suited for the CDT.

Oh no, I didn't say pacifistic, I said pacific. As in peaceable. And my main point is that adherents of religion rarely follow religion exactly since Christianity is much more than the Bible and Islam is much more than the Koran.

It is not so much that violence is inherent in Islam but more that it is far more difficult to argue non-violence from within the framework of Islam than it is from within the framework of other religions. This is because while violence is not inherent to the religion itself violence was intrinsic to the foundation and spread of Islam, so much so that separating the two takes a great deal of effort to justify. Even those Muslims who advocate non-violence cannot help but celebrate the violent conquests of the Caliphate.

Your argument, then, is that the violence of modern-day Muslims is rooted in the foundation and spread of Islam? Yeah, I'm really not convinced that the conquests of Muhammad and his immediate disciples 1300 years ago are a bigger cause of terrorist attacks committed by Muslims than the reasons I've outlined.

Arab Fascism you mean. Ba'athism has more common with Mussolini's Italy than with any Left-wing movement, especially the kind practiced by Saddam Hussein.

I'm not interested in a semantics debate. The point is economic failures (and the Arab world being BTFO'd by Israel around the same time period) played a huge role in the growth of Islamism.

Which is a uniquely Sunni phenomenon, failing to explain the 'extremism' supported by Shia Iran.

I was referring to the explosion of extremism across the Middle East in general. Apologies for the confusion.

Islamic extremism has less to do with some supposed inherent violence of Islam

Brought in part by the unprovoked violent conquest of Christian lands by the young Caliphate.

I can't help but find it ironic how you dismiss the US-sponsored Iranian coup as irrelevant, but feel the need to bring up the early Muslim conquests. Incidentally, I think early Muslim-Christian conflicts define your relation with Islam stronger than most Muslims' (the non-fundamentalists, at least) relations with Christianity.

But anyway, I was specifically referring to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the US-backed coup in Iran, the Suez crisis, European colonialism in the Middle East, etc.

It is notably quite difficult to integrate people who think you're a lesser being undeserving of life just by being an infidel.

Though these people are few and far between at least, as you expressed earlier, no?

That's probably because most Muslims are human beings with a conscious, something I notably never disputed.

If it's a problem with a minority of radicals, then, the problem has much more to do with their dangerous interpretation of Islam than mainstream Islam. And more importantly, the specific sociocultural factors of the radicals, as it's of no small note that Islamic terrorists and would-be terrorists are disproportionately young, recent converts.

[Zottistan]

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet,

It's outside America so no one cares. After all, "we're the only country where this happens".

You're the only country where this happens regularly, by an absurdly wide margin, despite having a very low muslim population compared to all the european states where this barely ever happens.