"What are your pronouns?"

[Aussie Australia]

Listen science doesn't just change suddenly because you want to be special.

Science changes as we learn more about the world around us. As we have learned more about human biology, the scientific understanding of sex has changed.

If Bob has to convince the gynaecologist he has a cervix who cares most medial profesionals have enough of an understanding about there feild to know some people are built with some anomalies.

You should care, because the fact that things like that happen contradicts your belief that "making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care".

It doesn't matter if early people didn't understand basic geneomics. We can clearly observe two sets of people, one male and another female that's obvious to everyone.

That is obvious. But scientists study the world more closely than what is obvious. And it turns out that sex is rather more complicated than what our ancestors believed before they had mastered fire.

There are clear differences like males are larger and stronger, females have the ability to produce offspring, have a lower sex drive. Not even mentioning the anatomical, genomic, hormonal and reproductive differences.

As I said, the differences are real, but the categories we place on top of them are invented. And scientific study of the differences between humans has shown that sex is not a simple binary.

It is found in nearly every species there are two sexes that play different roles in there heiarcies. And no it isn't determined by if you have a mental condition where you have a hormone imbalance or you have a mental illness it is determined by your chromosomes which cause you to develope sex charecteristics.

Chromosomes aren't the only factor in one's sex.

And yes we do understand it quite well even if we have a lot more to learn in the field of genetics

You clearly do not understand sex very well.

Ok let me put this to you simply. Sex is determined by your chromosomes as is everything about you as that determines each trait that will appear and your chromosomes will determine the development of sex charecteristics. If you would like to point out how our understanding of sex has changed that allows someone to decide what gender they are based on no physiological factors without inculding neurology that would be fantastic. And no being intersex doesn't make you gender fluid you are a specific gender but due to an anomoly you developed secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender.

I'd actually like you to defend your argument that proves not only is sex determined by your own preference but it can be changed. Also why do having new pronouns that don't reflect your biological gender in any way helpful to society or important enough you should be allowed to change your literal gender on your birth certificate.

[Aussie Australia]

Well no sex is not made up and neither is race, they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures. Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis. And no you can not change your sex and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

What if they're XXY or XXX?

Like i said before that is an anomoly and is extremely rare and still determines sex. a xxy is still a male and a xxx is still a female. I love how you think because a genomic disorder exists you can suddenly change genders at will and make up your own pronouns for your own ego

[New haven america]

What if they're XXY or XXX?

Like i said before that is an anomoly and is extremely rare and still determines sex. a xxy is still a male and a xxx is still a female. I love how you think because a genomic disorder exists you can suddenly change genders at will and make up your own pronouns for your own ego

It's not, intersex people are actually rather common, 2% of the American population in fact.

[Racoda]

Not snarking, but whatever. You asked for a source, I gave you the definitive one on the English language. I never said it was used "longer", I said it was acceptable since the 14th century. If you still want to go through these gymnastics on why it's not acceptable when it has been for seven hundred years, you do you.

I think you're ascribing to me a position I don't hold. I never said that singular they is unacceptable. In fact, I have nothing against singular they. I only remarked that the claim that "singular they" is older than "singular you" is unfounded.

You might have never said that it was "used longer", but my response requesting a source was specifically to the poster claiming that it was used longer, therefore I naturally assumed that your response to me with the OED was to back that claim.

[Big Jim P]

Like i said before that is an anomoly and is extremely rare and still determines sex. a xxy is still a male and a xxx is still a female. I love how you think because a genomic disorder exists you can suddenly change genders at will and make up your own pronouns for your own ego

It's not, intersex people are actually rather common, 2% of the American population in fact.

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

[Armeattla]

Ok let me put this to you simply. Sex is determined by your chromosomes as is everything about you as that determines each trait that will appear and your chromosomes will determine the development of sex charecteristics.

No, chromosomes are by themselves pretty unimportant and useless. Chromosomes are themselves merely storage media, so what actually matters is genotype, not karyotype. This was already demonstrated by the XX Male and XY Female syndromes.

If you would like to point out how our understanding of sex has changed that allows someone to decide what gender they are based on no physiological factors without inculding neurology that would be fantastic.

Gender and Sex are till two very different things and operate largely independent of eachothers.
Sex itself is a biological construct. Gender is a social construct.
When it comes to gender recognition, the recognition is based on both gender expression secondary sexual characteristics - and for prepubescent children it is entirely gender epxression (as there is no dimorphism in secondary sexual characteristics before puberty).
Secondary sexual characteristics are also exceedingly easy to change (HRT, surgeries), and even easier to fake (Binders, Corsettes).

And no being intersex doesn't make you gender fluid you are a specific gender but due to an anomoly you developed secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender.

Again, gender and sex are two different things. You are identified by your secondary sexual characteristics, not your sex - therefore you didn't develop the characteristics of the opposite gender, but started with the chromosomes of the opposite gender.
Also I have no idea why you keep bringing up gender fluid people, who are nothing but one specific subset of trans/non-binary people. Also none of us ever said being inter makes you bloody gender-fluid.

I'd actually like you to defend your argument that proves not only is sex determined by your own preference but it can be changed.

Sex is irrelevant in this case.
By your (very narrow and unusable definition) of sex it indeed cannot be changed.
By a more scientific definition - sex as spectral biological construct with two (or more) poles - it is quite easy, and something we do as a constant throughout our entire lives, starting with puberty.

Also why do having new pronouns that don't reflect your biological gender in any way helpful to society or important enough you should be allowed to change your literal gender on your birth certificate.

Gender and Sex are still two seperate things and there is no such thing as biological gender, and pronouns have quite literally no basis in biology.

[Armeattla]

It's not, intersex people are actually rather common, 2% of the American population in fact.

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

It can be argued to be statistically insignificant, but due to the scales we are working on it is numerically significant.
2% out of 80 million makes 1.6 million.
2% out of 360 million makes 7.2 million.

[Aussie Australia]

Ok let me put this to you simply. Sex is determined by your chromosomes as is everything about you as that determines each trait that will appear and your chromosomes will determine the development of sex charecteristics.

No, chromosomes are by themselves pretty unimportant and useless. Chromosomes are themselves merely storage media, so what actually matters is genotype, not karyotype. This was already demonstrated by the XX Male and XY Female syndromes.

If you would like to point out how our understanding of sex has changed that allows someone to decide what gender they are based on no physiological factors without inculding neurology that would be fantastic.

Gender and Sex are till two very different things and operate largely independent of eachothers.
Sex itself is a biological construct. Gender is a social construct.
When it comes to gender recognition, the recognition is based on both gender expression secondary sexual characteristics - and for prepubescent children it is entirely gender epxression (as there is no dimorphism in secondary sexual characteristics before puberty).
Secondary sexual characteristics are also exceedingly easy to change (HRT, surgeries), and even easier to fake (Binders, Corsettes).

And no being intersex doesn't make you gender fluid you are a specific gender but due to an anomoly you developed secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender.

Again, gender and sex are two different things. You are identified by your secondary sexual characteristics, not your sex - therefore you didn't develop the characteristics of the opposite gender, but started with the chromosomes of the opposite gender.
Also I have no idea why you keep bringing up gender fluid people, who are nothing but one specific subset of trans/non-binary people. Also none of us ever said being inter makes you bloody gender-fluid.

I'd actually like you to defend your argument that proves not only is sex determined by your own preference but it can be changed.

Sex is irrelevant in this case.
By your (very narrow and unusable definition) of sex it indeed cannot be changed.
By a more scientific definition - sex as spectral biological construct with two (or more) poles - it is quite easy, and something we do as a constant throughout our entire lives, starting with puberty.

Also why do having new pronouns that don't reflect your biological gender in any way helpful to society or important enough you should be allowed to change your literal gender on your birth certificate.

Gender and Sex are still two seperate things and there is no such thing as biological gender, and pronouns have quite literally no basis in biology.

Ok so what i'm getting from your argument is you believe there are more than one genders based on the fact there are chromosome abnormalities which definitely are abnormalities as they limit basic functions such as reproduction maybe not making it impossible but making it severely hindered. You also believe that gender and sex are completely independent and have no correlation. If i got that wrong correct me because this is what i'm going to try and correct you on.

Sex IS based on your sex chromsomes which develop the fetus into a male. That last y chromsome is what will determine primary and secondary sex characteristics. If you have an abnormality that doesn't create a new sex. They just developed the wrong primary sex characteristics. And also this is quite irrelevent to the conversation as the vast majority of people who spout this gender fluidity nonsense are not suffering from this they only have neurological issues.

The gender argument that sex and gender are independent is nonsense too. Yes they are different in that gender is more of a descriptive adjective that can be applied to inanimate objects but it is still describing a characteristic of that object which is the part that you don't seem to understand. A pair of pants may be classed as masculine because traditionally they were mens apparel same with a skirt. A person likewise is gendered male or female because it is in reference to their biological sex not their wishes or opinion. This makes the whole thing nonsense and why it has no basis in the real world. The distinction is there for a reason like separating sports, affirmative action programs, in minors they need to be seperated sometimes like in field trips that you need to sleep over for and some medicine applications. An intersex male does not suddenly get a one or the other choice as it may be important to their doctor to understand that this is a male who is intersex and not a biological female.

And no the xx male syndrome is because of interrelated ploygenic factors that can have an effect on phenotype development but still we can observe this in there genome and define there sex as male. But this isn't your argument because if we are only talking about a sex spectrum in relation to your genome that would invalidate this whole trans movement.

SO NO. You don't choose your gender as much as you don't choose your sex because they are related. Your gender is a description of your sex as i explained above and isn't up to your opinion. This whole pronoun thing is nonsense and narcissistic

[Ifreann]

Science changes as we learn more about the world around us. As we have learned more about human biology, the scientific understanding of sex has changed.

You should care, because the fact that things like that happen contradicts your belief that "making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care".

That is obvious. But scientists study the world more closely than what is obvious. And it turns out that sex is rather more complicated than what our ancestors believed before they had mastered fire.

As I said, the differences are real, but the categories we place on top of them are invented. And scientific study of the differences between humans has shown that sex is not a simple binary.

Chromosomes aren't the only factor in one's sex.

You clearly do not understand sex very well.

Ok let me put this to you simply. Sex is determined by your chromosomes as is everything about you as that determines each trait that will appear and your chromosomes will determine the development of sex charecteristics.

That may be what you were taught in school when you were 14, but I'm afraid that it isn't entirely true. We know that some people develop as female but have XY chromosomes, for example. And you can object that this is an abnormality, but regardless of how rare or common it is, it does happen, and that does mean that sex is not always a simple function of one's chromosomes.

If you would like to point out how our understanding of sex has changed that allows someone to decide what gender they are based on no physiological factors without inculding neurology that would be fantastic. And no being intersex doesn't make you gender fluid you are a specific gender but due to an anomoly you developed secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender.

Gender is a psychosocial phenomenon, distinct from sex.

I'd actually like you to defend your argument that proves not only is sex determined by your own preference but it can be changed.

Well, it depends what you mean by "sex". As I've said, sex is not just a simple function of one's chromosomes. And medical technology does allow people to change other elements of their physiology. People can just take drugs and change their hormone levels and they will then see changes in their bodies akin to going through puberty.

Also why do having new pronouns that don't reflect your biological gender in any way helpful to society or important enough you should be allowed to change your literal gender on your birth certificate.

People should be allowed to change these details because each person's identity belongs to them, not to society or to our biology. If I want to change my name, it is my name.

---

It's not, intersex people are actually rather common, 2% of the American population in fact.

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

It's about the same rate of occurrence as red hair. And I think it would be very silly indeed for a person to proclaim that redheads are actually anomalous blondes.

---

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

It can be argued to be statistically insignificant, but due to the scales we are working on it is numerically significant.
2% out of 80 million makes 1.6 million.
2% out of 360 million makes 7.2 million.

So there's about as many intersex Americans as there are Arizonans. Probably more.

[Aussie Australia]

Ok let me put this to you simply. Sex is determined by your chromosomes as is everything about you as that determines each trait that will appear and your chromosomes will determine the development of sex charecteristics.

That may be what you were taught in school when you were 14, but I'm afraid that it isn't entirely true. We know that some people develop as female but have XY chromosomes, for example. And you can object that this is an abnormality, but regardless of how rare or common it is, it does happen, and that does mean that sex is not always a simple function of one's chromosomes.

If you would like to point out how our understanding of sex has changed that allows someone to decide what gender they are based on no physiological factors without inculding neurology that would be fantastic. And no being intersex doesn't make you gender fluid you are a specific gender but due to an anomoly you developed secondary sex characteristics of the opposite gender.

Gender is a psychosocial phenomenon, distinct from sex.

I'd actually like you to defend your argument that proves not only is sex determined by your own preference but it can be changed.

Well, it depends what you mean by "sex". As I've said, sex is not just a simple function of one's chromosomes. And medical technology does allow people to change other elements of their physiology. People can just take drugs and change their hormone levels and they will then see changes in their bodies akin to going through puberty.

Also why do having new pronouns that don't reflect your biological gender in any way helpful to society or important enough you should be allowed to change your literal gender on your birth certificate.

People should be allowed to change these details because each person's identity belongs to them, not to society or to our biology. If I want to change my name, it is my name.

---

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

It's about the same rate of occurrence as red hair. And I think it would be very silly indeed for a person to proclaim that redheads are actually anomalous blondes.

---

It can be argued to be statistically insignificant, but due to the scales we are working on it is numerically significant.
2% out of 80 million makes 1.6 million.
2% out of 360 million makes 7.2 million.

So there's about as many intersex Americans as there are Arizonans. Probably more.

Well judging from the fact we can tell if a xy female syndrome is female and an xx male is male should tell you enough about that and the fact that it's typically caused by a mistaken transfer from the male sry gene should also tell you enough. And yes it is a function of your chromosomes as the chromosomes as a whole are what package your genes so anything that occures within them that effects your development is an effect within your chromosomes.

And gender may be a psychosocial phenomonon in the same way colour is but at the end of the day something that is black is black and not white and a male is still a male no matter how many times you call it a female. Like i said gendering is an adjective so a describing word like how we gender objects due to cultural associations with a certain sex same way we gender people based on their sex and NOT their OPINION of what they are. While yes you can change secondary sex charecteristics too i would hope your not saying that is a way of changing your gender.

I agree your identity is entirely your own and you can choose who you are to an extent but at some point it is delusion, i.e. i can change my name legally but i can't suddenly wake up one day and say i'm jamaican because it's completely not true same way i can't decide i feel like being a female today.

Look accept it you were wrong, you don't choose your own pronouns and you don't choose your own gender. You'll save yourself so much future embarrassment if you accept reality now

[Heloin]

You'll save yourself so much future embarrassment if you accept reality now

And yet you’re still posting a point without any scientific merit.

[Aussie Australia]

You'll save yourself so much future embarrassment if you accept reality now

And yet you’re still posting a point without any scientific merit.

Says you lol

[Ifreann]

That may be what you were taught in school when you were 14, but I'm afraid that it isn't entirely true. We know that some people develop as female but have XY chromosomes, for example. And you can object that this is an abnormality, but regardless of how rare or common it is, it does happen, and that does mean that sex is not always a simple function of one's chromosomes.

Gender is a psychosocial phenomenon, distinct from sex.


Well, it depends what you mean by "sex". As I've said, sex is not just a simple function of one's chromosomes. And medical technology does allow people to change other elements of their physiology. People can just take drugs and change their hormone levels and they will then see changes in their bodies akin to going through puberty.

People should be allowed to change these details because each person's identity belongs to them, not to society or to our biology. If I want to change my name, it is my name.

---

It's about the same rate of occurrence as red hair. And I think it would be very silly indeed for a person to proclaim that redheads are actually anomalous blondes.

---

So there's about as many intersex Americans as there are Arizonans. Probably more.

Well judging from the fact we can tell if a xy female syndrome is female and an xx male is male should tell you enough about that and the fact that it's typically caused by a mistaken transfer from the male sry gene should also tell you enough. And yes it is a function of your chromosomes as the chromosomes as a whole are what package your genes so anything that occures within them that effects your development is an effect within your chromosomes.

So sex is not, in fact, determined simply by whether one has XX or XY chromosomes.

And gender may be a psychosocial phenomonon in the same way colour is but at the end of the day something that is black is black and not white and a male is still a male no matter how many times you call it a female. Like i said gendering is an adjective so a describing word like how we gender objects due to cultural associations with a certain sex same way we gender people based on their sex and NOT their OPINION of what they are. While yes you can change secondary sex charecteristics too i would hope your not saying that is a way of changing your gender.

A pronoun is a word which stands in for another noun. It is not an adjective. And the proposition that we choose gendered personal pronouns for a person based on that person's sex is just silly. Realistically you don't know anything about the sex of the vast majority of the people you will ever talk about. At least, I hope that you do not strip people naked and subject them to a battery of medical exams before choosing the pronouns by which to refer to them.

I agree your identity is entirely your own and you can choose who you are to an extent but at some point it is delusion, i.e. i can change my name legally but i can't suddenly wake up one day and say i'm jamaican because it's completely not true same way i can't decide i feel like being a female today.

Transgender people don't wake up one day and decide on a gender. My understanding, based on trying to listen to the accounts of trans people, is that it's a matter more of accepting and acknowledging long-held feelings about their internal gender identity. But of course, the trans community is diverse and different people might well have radically different understandings of their own gender.

And incidentally, you can become Jamaican. https://jis.gov.jm/information/faqs/app ... tizenship/

Look accept it you were wrong, you don't choose your own pronouns and you don't choose your own gender. You'll save yourself so much future embarrassment if you accept reality now

I'm not the one denying reality here, chief.

[Aussie Australia]

So sex is not, in fact, determined simply by whether one has XX or XY chromosomes.

Well seeing as those genetic abnormalities are caused by a gene from the y sex chromosome crossing over into a female x chromosome yeah you can say it's a bit more complicated but it doesn't change the fact that we can still tell what sex they are which proves my point

A pronoun is a word which stands in for another noun. It is not an adjective. And the proposition that we choose gendered personal pronouns for a person based on that person's sex is just silly. Realistically you don't know anything about the sex of the vast majority of the people you will ever talk about. At least, I hope that you do not strip people naked and subject them to a battery of medical exams before choosing the pronouns by which to refer to them.

Realistically i do because i'm not stupid and can make inferences based on evidence likelihood that they are that sex which is what a normal person would base their gendering on, it's not complicated. Like it's not very likely every second person i meet is a crossdresser is it?

Transgender people don't wake up one day and decide on a gender. My understanding, based on trying to listen to the accounts of trans people, is that it's a matter more of accepting and acknowledging long-held feelings about their internal gender identity. But of course, the trans community is diverse and different people might well have radically different understandings of their own gender. And incidentally, you can become Jamaican. https://jis.gov.jm/information/faqs/app ... tizenship/

Oh really what is this long held feeling based on? some magical inner identity that is busting to come out or mental illness. Feelings don't determine sex and as a consequence gender as you gender will be determined by your sex otherwise gender would be meaningless.
Oh well maybe i should have said an ethnicity by your logic i should be able to tell everyone i'm native american and force everyone to acknoledge me as such. Do you see how ridiculous that is?

I'm not the one denying reality here, chief.

Well you certainly are inventing realities lol

[Giovenith]

No, you stated that you stopped helping her when she was rude. If you did you didn't initially state that you had.


You likely don't based on your still posting here complaining about it but I couldn't be certain.


If that's what you argued then you didn't argue it well. If the person you told a story about ever existed and this isn't just a colourful metaphor.


It's less that and more I think you likely don't treat others with the common decency you pretend to care about.

"after she scolded me, my goodwill was through" =/= my assistance stopped.
Goodwill is about readiness, reluctance, and anger.

"I couldn´t be certain"
Yet you asserted my position. Therein lies the root of all mischaracterisations you made about me and my arguments.
Therein, too, lies the bad attitude: it is assumed that anything other than self-flagellating readiness to divine the correct pronoun is indicative of a lack of respect / refusal. Things just aren´t that balck-and-white.

"You didn´t argue well"
Yes, I made a mistake in assuming good faith on the part of those who´d read my answer.

"Colourfull metaphor"
Your refusal to accept reality as such is becoming a persistent pattern.

"You likely don´t treat"
"You pretend"

More unfounded assertions, when earlier you admitted there was no certainty on your part. Earlier you wrote that you were "not pretending to be polite". Perhaps you assume the worst in me because you assume me to be similarly disposed as yourself? Your attitude, however, is not a standard. Nor even a sub-standard. Your attitude is a problem. As are the replies that spring from it.

They really remind me of Karen on her scooter: she was utterly incapable of perspective, nuance, and courtesy. All she cared about was to shout at someone. She might have been deputed by gender as female, but a woman? Not on my terms. She was a c**t.

A long, indirect way of calling another player the c-word is still calling another player the c-word.

*** Warning for Flamebaiting ***

Shivering in my boots.

I'm honestly not sure why you think censuring your own swear words is needed.

Ad 1. This vapid reply has now been given twice. Do you have anything substantive to offer? Or shall I take it as a mostly tacid but wholly reluctant acceptance of the arguments it ignores?

Ad 2. When someone is low-key flaming, it is best not to reply with anything that can be taken out of context. Erring on the safe side and all that. As for you being honest... hope springs eternal in my mind.

As you so eloquently said

I couldn´t be certain

But until I am certain, I will be censoring my own swearwords.
Which neatly brings us back to the response to your question why I would do so.

If someone is breaking the rules, report them. If you are uncertain, keep your suspicions to yourself. Glibly flirting with the idea without putting your money where your mouth is is just baiting someone.

Cut down on the dismissive snark in general as well.

[Twilight Imperium]

-snip-

This is how most people who post like this end up - all full of righteous indignation and cherry picked "facts" who crumble swiftly at the slightest resistance. Almost like they know the truth but can't.. quite.. bring themselves to admit it.

Do yourself a favor, Aussie Australia, and actually have an original thought about this one.

[Ifreann]

So sex is not, in fact, determined simply by whether one has XX or XY chromosomes.

Well seeing as those genetic abnormalities are caused by a gene from the y sex chromosome crossing over into a female x chromosome yeah you can say it's a bit more complicated but it doesn't change the fact that we can still tell what sex they are which proves my point

Of course we can examine a person and determine their sex. Who ever suggested otherwise?

A pronoun is a word which stands in for another noun. It is not an adjective. And the proposition that we choose gendered personal pronouns for a person based on that person's sex is just silly. Realistically you don't know anything about the sex of the vast majority of the people you will ever talk about. At least, I hope that you do not strip people naked and subject them to a battery of medical exams before choosing the pronouns by which to refer to them.

Realistically i do because i'm not stupid and can make inferences based on evidence likelihood that they are that sex which is what a normal person would base their gendering on, it's not complicated. Like it's not very likely every second person i meet is a crossdresser is it?

As mentioned in this thread, intersex conditions occur in around 2% of people. So for every hundred people you meet, 2 probably have some element of their biology that is not what you would expect based on how they appear walking down the street.

And it's probably actually more than 2%. There is some number of people that have some kind of intersex condition but never notice because it doesn't cause them any negative symptoms worth going to a doctor over. There was a case of an XY female woman whose only divergence from an ordinary female puberty were growing sparse pubic hair. Hardly something to see a geneticist about. Her condition was only discovered when her daughter, who is also XY female, did have abnormal sexual development and went to the doctor about it. Take note of that, by the way, and XY woman got pregnant, without any medical intervention, and gave birth.

Transgender people don't wake up one day and decide on a gender. My understanding, based on trying to listen to the accounts of trans people, is that it's a matter more of accepting and acknowledging long-held feelings about their internal gender identity. But of course, the trans community is diverse and different people might well have radically different understandings of their own gender. And incidentally, you can become Jamaican. https://jis.gov.jm/information/faqs/app ... tizenship/

Oh really what is this long held feeling based on? some magical inner identity that is busting to come out

Yeah, basically.

or mental illness.

No.

Feelings don't determine sex and as a consequence gender as you gender will be determined by your sex otherwise gender would be meaningless.

Gender is determined by our psychology, not by our sex.

Oh well maybe i should have said an ethnicity by your logic i should be able to tell everyone i'm native american and force everyone to acknoledge me as such. Do you see how ridiculous that is?

Ethnicity and gender aren't the same thing.

I'm not the one denying reality here, chief.

Well you certainly are inventing realities lol

No, I am just describing this reality to you.

[Aussie Australia]

Well seeing as those genetic abnormalities are caused by a gene from the y sex chromosome crossing over into a female x chromosome yeah you can say it's a bit more complicated but it doesn't change the fact that we can still tell what sex they are which proves my point

Of course we can examine a person and determine their sex. Who ever suggested otherwise?

Realistically i do because i'm not stupid and can make inferences based on evidence likelihood that they are that sex which is what a normal person would base their gendering on, it's not complicated. Like it's not very likely every second person i meet is a crossdresser is it?

As mentioned in this thread, intersex conditions occur in around 2% of people. So for every hundred people you meet, 2 probably have some element of their biology that is not what you would expect based on how they appear walking down the street.

And it's probably actually more than 2%. There is some number of people that have some kind of intersex condition but never notice because it doesn't cause them any negative symptoms worth going to a doctor over. There was a case of an XY female woman whose only divergence from an ordinary female puberty were growing sparse pubic hair. Hardly something to see a geneticist about. Her condition was only discovered when her daughter, who is also XY female, did have abnormal sexual development and went to the doctor about it. Take note of that, by the way, and XY woman got pregnant, without any medical intervention, and gave birth.

Oh really what is this long held feeling based on? some magical inner identity that is busting to come out

Yeah, basically.

or mental illness.

No.

Feelings don't determine sex and as a consequence gender as you gender will be determined by your sex otherwise gender would be meaningless.

Gender is determined by our psychology, not by our sex.

Oh well maybe i should have said an ethnicity by your logic i should be able to tell everyone i'm native american and force everyone to acknoledge me as such. Do you see how ridiculous that is?

Ethnicity and gender aren't the same thing.

Well you certainly are inventing realities lol

No, I am just describing this reality to you.

Wow good job not addressing any of my points and bringing nothing new in, it's almost like your argument is crumbling because it has no basis in reality.

Seeing as how you are struggling to grasp these concepts i'll do you a favour and lay them out very simply.

Having a chromosome abnormality doesn't make you a new sex it just means you have a primary sex yet you developed the wrong parts. And yes they can give birth but it is still at a reduced capacity due to this abnormality because it is an abnormality not normal. And as a result is not supporting your argument

As i explained before

Gender is determined by your sex because that is what it describes what your sex is. Just because it's psychological doesn't mean it's up to individual interpretation there is still a set logic behind these categorisations otherwise they would have no practical use and we might as well call everyone it.

As i explained before

If you believe your gender is not in line with your sex you are not living in reality because then that gendered pronoun is not based on any reality or logic and just feeling which makes it useless. And if this is because you believe you are female yet you are biologically a male it is clear cut mental illness

As i explained before

I wasn't saying ethnicity and gender are not the same thing i'm saying by your logic because race could be classed as psychological i could just as easily identify as black when i'm clearly not. The reason you can't is because as soon as those classifications do not reflect reality they become useless.

As i explained before

If you're starting to realise your wrong you don't have to keep digging yourself into a hole

[Thermodolia]

It's not, intersex people are actually rather common, 2% of the American population in fact.

2% is hardly common. It isn't extremely rare either.

It’s not even that. The 1.7% used an overly broad definition of intersex, the actual amount is less than 1%
https://www.leonardsax.com/how-common-i ... -sterling/

Yet again this is a case of people misunderstanding how statistics work just like the abortion debate

[Twilight Imperium]

If you're starting to realise your wrong you don't have to keep digging yourself into a hole

And yet you keep posting! You're the one insisting that cultural constructs = reality here, maybe if we all get together we can wish the moon pink too?

[Armeattla]

Having a chromosome abnormality doesn't make you a new sex it just means you have a primary sex yet you developed the wrong parts. And yes they can give birth but it is still at a reduced capacity due to this abnormality because it is an abnormality not normal.

You may attempt to keep handwaving the intersex arguments by demoting it as "abnormal", but that doesn't change that it is a disproval of your hypothesis that sex is solely determined by chromosomes. But you might not be familiar enough with the scientific process to realize that...

Gender is determined by your sex because that is what it describes what your sex is. Just because it's psychological doesn't mean it's up to individual interpretation there is still a set logic behind these categorisations otherwise they would have no practical use and we might as well call everyone it.

Again, no it isn't, not by your definition (chromosomes).
Gender in all it's social aspects is based on gender expression and secondary characteristics.
It doesn't matter if you have a dick, it doesn't matter if you hav XY chromosomes, if you look like a woman, you will be recognized as a woman.

If you believe your gender is not in line with your sex you are not living in reality because then that gendered pronoun is not based on any reality or logic and just feeling which makes it useless. And if this is because you believe you are female yet you are biologically a male it is clear cut mental illness

You do know that the human is a species where the brain is actually alot more important than anything else?
Also, I don't think you are in any form capable of making a judgement of what isa mental illness or not.
The APA seems to have that well in hand.

Also I hope you realise trans people transition? A vast majority also medically transition, which has the explicit goal of changing secondary sexual characteristics (and often also primary secondary characteristics).
That is mostly done by undergoing HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy), thereby changing the hormone household (which actually determines your secondary sexual characteristics and physiology), and undergoing surgery (usually to remove already develloped, unwanted characteristics, such as narrowing the shoulders or removing the breasts - not counting SRS yet).
Most trans people who have finished their medical transition are usually indistinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

[Aussie Australia]

Having a chromosome abnormality doesn't make you a new sex it just means you have a primary sex yet you developed the wrong parts. And yes they can give birth but it is still at a reduced capacity due to this abnormality because it is an abnormality not normal.

You may attempt to keep handwaving the intersex arguments by demoting it as "abnormal", but that doesn't change that it is a disproval of your hypothesis that sex is solely determined by chromosomes. But you might not be familiar enough with the scientific process to realize that...

Gender is determined by your sex because that is what it describes what your sex is. Just because it's psychological doesn't mean it's up to individual interpretation there is still a set logic behind these categorisations otherwise they would have no practical use and we might as well call everyone it.

Again, no it isn't, not by your definition (chromosomes).
Gender in all it's social aspects is based on gender expression and secondary characteristics.
It doesn't matter if you have a dick, it doesn't matter if you hav XY chromosomes, if you look like a woman, you will be recognized as a woman.

If you believe your gender is not in line with your sex you are not living in reality because then that gendered pronoun is not based on any reality or logic and just feeling which makes it useless. And if this is because you believe you are female yet you are biologically a male it is clear cut mental illness

You do know that the human is a species where the brain is actually alot more important than anything else?
Also, I don't think you are in any form capable of making a judgement of what isa mental illness or not.
The APA seems to have that well in hand.

Also I hope you realise trans people transition? A vast majority also medically transition, which has the explicit goal of changing secondary sexual characteristics (and often also primary secondary characteristics).
That is mostly done by undergoing HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy), thereby changing the hormone household (which actually determines your secondary sexual characteristics and physiology), and undergoing surgery (usually to remove already develloped, unwanted characteristics, such as narrowing the shoulders or removing the breasts - not counting SRS yet).
Most trans people who have finished their medical transition are usually indistinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

OMG i'm not saying that it's literally just XX and XY that determine your sex but also your genes which exist in your sex chromosomes. That's why they're called your sex chromosomes.

Tell me how is an intersex person not one male or female when there disorder names literally gender them. XY Female syndrome or XX Male syndrome. They may have the opposite sex chromosome set but in thy have genes that code to make that person a man or a woman not inbetween but one or the other.

And just looking like a woman doesn't make you a woman like what. It's like saying oh that person is dressed like Michael Jackson so it must obviously be Michael Jackson. What do you think gendering is, why would we have just by pure coincidence two genders and two sexes both named the same thing. I mean it's almost like they're supposed to reflect each other!

You can't change your sex and therefore you can't change your gender. And you shouldn't gender is there to give you information about someone like can you breed with them or can they join this sport or can they use this bathroom.

Going through hormone replacement therapy won't change your sex (i.e. genes) and while it might make you look like a woman you aren't so why on earth would you be gendered as one

[Aussie Australia]

If you're starting to realise your wrong you don't have to keep digging yourself into a hole

And yet you keep posting! You're the one insisting that cultural constructs = reality here, maybe if we all get together we can wish the moon pink too?

I don't think you understand your argument just supports what i'm saying. Like just saying the moon is pink doesn't make it pink and just saying a male is actually a female doesn't make it so

[Armeattla]

OMG i'm not saying that it's literally just XX and XY that determine your sex but also your genes which exist in your sex chromosomes. That's why they're called your sex chromosomes.

You may say that, but technically the only part that determines your sex is the presence of SRY and related genes. We have discovered 25, which are actually very few. (Also fun fact: what differentiates a Y chromosome from an X chromosome is it's lack of information in comparison, hence why it's so short and called Y (could have been called x (small) instead).)
Genes are also only a one-off thing, it mostly determines the development of your primary sexual organs (what your gonads turn into and whether the mesonephric duct or the paramesonephric ducts athropy). What later determines your secondary sexual characteristics is your hormone household and hormone sensitivity.

Tell me how is an intersex person not one male or female when there disorder names literally gender them. XY Female syndrome or XX Male syndrome. They may have the opposite sex chromosome set but in thy have genes that code to make that person a man or a woman not inbetween but one or the other.

Female and Male are anatomical descriptors, not social. Male and masculine are two seperate descriptors for a reason, and so are female and feminine.
Also Intersex is quite literally defined as "falling outside of the Male-Female dichotimy".

And just looking like a woman doesn't make you a woman like what. It's like saying oh that person is dressed like Michael Jackson so it must obviously be Michael Jackson.

A really horrible analogy...

What do you think gendering is, why would we have just by pure coincidence two genders and two sexes both named the same thing. I mean it's almost like they're supposed to reflect each other!

"Man" is not a sex and neither is "Woman", both are genders. "Male" is a sex and so is "Female".
Also those structures mostly exist in our society and cultures, which was always heavy on discrimination against anything which didn't fit a certain image which was always trimmed on reproduction and accumulation of capital.
Other cultures, who did not have the same development of material conditions as us often and frequently had third genders, often unrelated to sex. And it is very well possible to construct a society which is void of gender constructs or uses more than just two or three.

You can't change your sex and therefore you can't change your gender. And you shouldn't gender is there to give you information about someone like can you breed with them or can they join this sport or can they use this bathroom.

Gender is still pretty far removed from sex.
And how we structutre bathrooms is also based on our culture.
According to Freud children have an "anal phase", where they learn how to poop. The subsequent generation of psychoanalysists, to be exact the ethno-psychoanalysists, discovered that said anal phase was exclusive to cultures such as european or euro-american cultures, with african culture simply not having one.
Also I don't get this obsession with breeding, it's disgusting.
The sex drive does not have as goal reproduction, but merely the orgasm.

Going through hormone replacement therapy won't change your sex (i.e. genes) and while it might make you look like a woman you aren't so why on earth would you be gendered as one

Because you look like one. Again you say sex is based on chromosomes and genes (and possibly genitals), but those are things we don't look at when determining the gender of another person, we determine how the look. But you seem to stubbornly refuse such an observation.

[Thomasi]

TIL from Google that the brain in transgender people is a mix of the male and female brains. Since the 2 brains are different due to having to control different functions.

Now gender dysphoria makes more sense having parts of both brains must be confusing as fuck.


That said while we should call children by there preferred pronouns they should have to wait til 21 to transition to make sure they don't have regrets.