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PASSWORD

"What are your pronouns?"

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Aussie Australia
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Postby Aussie Australia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:39 am

Diarcesia wrote:
Aussie Australia wrote:
Well no sex is not made up and neither is race, they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures. Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis. And no you can not change your sex and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

The only race that is not made up is the human race.

Thanks for the input genius

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:50 am

Aussie Australia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Race and gender are also made up identities.

All labels are made up.

Those are made up categories.

Obviously a person's identity is based on their feelings about themselves. What on Earth else would it be? Our anatomy does not define who we are.


Well no sex is not made up and neither is race,

They definitely are.
they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures.

People also have differences in several other features of their anatomies and genetics. Those difference are real, but what is made up is the categories we place on top of those differences. Keep in mind that these categories, race and sex, long predate our modern understanding of genetics. When European race scientists started talking about Africans being members of the Negroid race, they didn't have the slightest fucking notion what DNA was. Since discovering DNA and studying human genetics we have found there to be massive genetic diversity in Africa. It doesn't make any scientific sense to classify all of those people as one race. Likewise for the other races, genetics simply does not support the idea of humans being white, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Pacific Islander.

The story is similar for sex. We came up with the idea of humans being either male or female probably in pre-history based on differences in external anatomy. But unsurprisingly, 21st century biology has shown the matter to be considerably more complex. Sex is not one simple, binary factor, sex is a complex mechanism with various interacting elements that I imagine we probably don't yet entirely understand.
Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis.

Of course it does. Do you think we discover language in nature?
And no you can not change your sex

We can change a lot about our bodies, actually. Some of which could in some ways be said to constitute changing our sex.
and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care

No it doesn't. This is such a weird lie that transphobes tell. Like, transgender people actually struggle in a lot of places to get appropriate medical care. Trans man calls up a gynaecologist to get his cervix checked and faces an uphill battle to convince medical professionals that yes, the man on the phone named Bob is trying to book a cervix exam for himself, not his wife or girlfriend or daughter, he has a cervix and would like someone to check if it's healthy.
and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

Hey look, there's that workplace discrimination showing up again.
Last edited by Ifreann on Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Diarcesia
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Postby Diarcesia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:00 am

Aussie Australia wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:The only race that is not made up is the human race.

Thanks for the input genius

You're welcome. I'm flattered.

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Armeattla
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Postby Armeattla » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:08 am

Aussie Australia wrote:If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that,

We already did bring Intersex people up, so that's straight up idiotic.
There exist far more combinations than simply XY and XX, Karyotype 45,X and Karyotype 47,XXY or 47,XYY aren't that rare. XX Male Syndrome and XY Female Syndrome also exist, and so do 45,X/46,XY and 46,XX/46,XY Mosaicisms.

Also, Sex and Gender still are not the same thing. Sex is biologically constructed, Gender is socially constructed (and gender identity is psychosocially constructed).
They are loosely related, mostly by sexual development - which can be an absolute bloody mess from start to finish.
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Yohaulticetlia
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Postby Yohaulticetlia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:46 am

Why are people so angry about respecting others' pronouns?
Last edited by Yohaulticetlia on Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aussie Australia
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Postby Aussie Australia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:50 am

Ifreann wrote:
Aussie Australia wrote:
Well no sex is not made up and neither is race,

They definitely are.
they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures.

People also have differences in several other features of their anatomies and genetics. Those difference are real, but what is made up is the categories we place on top of those differences. Keep in mind that these categories, race and sex, long predate our modern understanding of genetics. When European race scientists started talking about Africans being members of the Negroid race, they didn't have the slightest fucking notion what DNA was. Since discovering DNA and studying human genetics we have found there to be massive genetic diversity in Africa. It doesn't make any scientific sense to classify all of those people as one race. Likewise for the other races, genetics simply does not support the idea of humans being white, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Pacific Islander.

The story is similar for sex. We came up with the idea of humans being either male or female probably in pre-history based on differences in external anatomy. But unsurprisingly, 21st century biology has shown the matter to be considerably more complex. Sex is not one simple, binary factor, sex is a complex mechanism with various interacting elements that I imagine we probably don't yet entirely understand.
Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis.

Of course it does. Do you think we discover language in nature?
And no you can not change your sex

We can change a lot about our bodies, actually. Some of which could in some ways be said to constitute changing our sex.
and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care

No it doesn't. This is such a weird lie that transphobes tell. Like, transgender people actually struggle in a lot of places to get appropriate medical care. Trans man calls up a gynaecologist to get his cervix checked and faces an uphill battle to convince medical professionals that yes, the man on the phone named Bob is trying to book a cervix exam for himself, not his wife or girlfriend or daughter, he has a cervix and would like someone to check if it's healthy.
and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

Hey look, there's that workplace discrimination showing up again.


Listen science doesn't just change suddenly because you want to be special. If Bob has to convince the gynaecologist he has a cervix who cares most medial profesionals have enough of an understanding about there feild to know some people are built with some anomalies. It doesn't matter if early people didn't understand basic geneomics. We can clearly observe two sets of people, one male and another female that's obvious to everyone. There are clear differences like males are larger and stronger, females have the ability to produce offspring, have a lower sex drive. Not even mentioning the anatomical, genomic, hormonal and reproductive differences. It is found in nearly every species there are two sexes that play different roles in there heiarcies. And no it isn't determined by if you have a mental condition where you have a hormone imbalance or you have a mental illness it is determined by your chromosomes which cause you to develope sex charecteristics. And yes we do understand it quite well even if we have a lot more to learn in the field of genetics

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Aussie Australia
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Postby Aussie Australia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:57 am

Armeattla wrote:
Aussie Australia wrote:If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that,

We already did bring Intersex people up, so that's straight up idiotic.
There exist far more combinations than simply XY and XX, Karyotype 45,X and Karyotype 47,XXY or 47,XYY aren't that rare. XX Male Syndrome and XY Female Syndrome also exist, and so do 45,X/46,XY and 46,XX/46,XY Mosaicisms.

Also, Sex and Gender still are not the same thing. Sex is biologically constructed, Gender is socially constructed (and gender identity is psychosocially constructed).
They are loosely related, mostly by sexual development - which can be an absolute bloody mess from start to finish.


Yes except the those conditions are abnormalities not the norm and the fact that they are classified as infertile shows that. Also is your point that we should make chromosomes the main determinant of sex invalidiating transgenders who are biologically male or female and go through reasignment. Gender is socially constructed yes but that is to give label to what something is. We would gender a biological male because he is a male so that would be his gender, nothing to do with how he feels. A dress might be gendered female because that is typically used by females. What i am saying is things are gendered with a reason not because when you were born your parents felt like gendering you male rather than female.
We already did bring Intersex people up, so that's straight up idiotic.

If you want to see something idiotic i would only sugest you look in the mirror

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Aussie Australia
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Postby Aussie Australia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:03 am

Ifreann wrote:
Aussie Australia wrote:


Well look that's a fact of life sorry, in sport women and men can not compete because men are physically more adept than females and would ruin female's competition and there are restrictions like how a female police officer must be present to search a female detainee, or in some military positions are restricted by gender because men are more physically capable against other men and it prevents some of the fraternising in the ranks which can harm a missions chance of success

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:06 am

Aussie Australia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:They definitely are.

People also have differences in several other features of their anatomies and genetics. Those difference are real, but what is made up is the categories we place on top of those differences. Keep in mind that these categories, race and sex, long predate our modern understanding of genetics. When European race scientists started talking about Africans being members of the Negroid race, they didn't have the slightest fucking notion what DNA was. Since discovering DNA and studying human genetics we have found there to be massive genetic diversity in Africa. It doesn't make any scientific sense to classify all of those people as one race. Likewise for the other races, genetics simply does not support the idea of humans being white, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Pacific Islander.

The story is similar for sex. We came up with the idea of humans being either male or female probably in pre-history based on differences in external anatomy. But unsurprisingly, 21st century biology has shown the matter to be considerably more complex. Sex is not one simple, binary factor, sex is a complex mechanism with various interacting elements that I imagine we probably don't yet entirely understand.

Of course it does. Do you think we discover language in nature?

We can change a lot about our bodies, actually. Some of which could in some ways be said to constitute changing our sex.

No it doesn't. This is such a weird lie that transphobes tell. Like, transgender people actually struggle in a lot of places to get appropriate medical care. Trans man calls up a gynaecologist to get his cervix checked and faces an uphill battle to convince medical professionals that yes, the man on the phone named Bob is trying to book a cervix exam for himself, not his wife or girlfriend or daughter, he has a cervix and would like someone to check if it's healthy.

Hey look, there's that workplace discrimination showing up again.


Listen science doesn't just change suddenly because you want to be special.

Science changes as we learn more about the world around us. As we have learned more about human biology, the scientific understanding of sex has changed.
If Bob has to convince the gynaecologist he has a cervix who cares most medial profesionals have enough of an understanding about there feild to know some people are built with some anomalies.

You should care, because the fact that things like that happen contradicts your belief that "making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care".
It doesn't matter if early people didn't understand basic geneomics. We can clearly observe two sets of people, one male and another female that's obvious to everyone.

That is obvious. But scientists study the world more closely than what is obvious. And it turns out that sex is rather more complicated than what our ancestors believed before they had mastered fire.
There are clear differences like males are larger and stronger, females have the ability to produce offspring, have a lower sex drive. Not even mentioning the anatomical, genomic, hormonal and reproductive differences.

As I said, the differences are real, but the categories we place on top of them are invented. And scientific study of the differences between humans has shown that sex is not a simple binary.
It is found in nearly every species there are two sexes that play different roles in there heiarcies. And no it isn't determined by if you have a mental condition where you have a hormone imbalance or you have a mental illness it is determined by your chromosomes which cause you to develope sex charecteristics.

Chromosomes aren't the only factor in one's sex.
And yes we do understand it quite well even if we have a lot more to learn in the field of genetics

You clearly do not understand sex very well.
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:12 am

Aussie Australia wrote:
Armeattla wrote:We already did bring Intersex people up, so that's straight up idiotic.

If you want to see something idiotic i would only sugest you look in the mirror

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Katganistan
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Postby Katganistan » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:26 pm

Racoda wrote:
Erynia and Draconia wrote:People have been using they/them singular pronouns for longer than singular “you” has been a thing

Source: trust me bro


https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-his ... ular-they/

I don't know, the Oxford English Dictionary is the recognized source for everything about the language: will THEY do?

The Huskar Social Union wrote:It takes me like no effort to use someones preferred pronouns, so if someone wants me to say he/she/they whatever ill do my best to use them when i talk or interact with that person. But i think some people have gotten really worked up over the use of pronouns, stop being dicks about it ffs. Ill also just use they as a general catch all term for people in general conversation

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Though mine are hij/hem.
lmao what the fuck

Dutch, I assume?
Floofybit wrote:I always refer to someone by their name or "you" and if I need to use pronouns I'm not talking to them so I don't understand why it matters. I mean, I respect the people, I just don't first ask someone, "hey, what are your pronouns?"

(Btw mine are he/he/he/ha)

I find that if they are important to someone I'm meeting, they will say, "I prefer..." and it's easy to, you know, remember and use them. As easy as remembering their name.
Last edited by Katganistan on Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:41 pm

Katganistan wrote:
Floofybit wrote:I always refer to someone by their name or "you" and if I need to use pronouns I'm not talking to them so I don't understand why it matters. I mean, I respect the people, I just don't first ask someone, "hey, what are your pronouns?"

(Btw mine are he/he/he/ha)

I find that if they are important to someone I'm meeting, they will say, "I prefer..." and it's easy to, you know, remember and use them. As easy as remembering their name.

I remember pronouns before I remember names. Mostly because before I’ve finished talking to someone I already forgot their name.

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Waspocalypse
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Postby Waspocalypse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:09 pm

Yohaulticetlia wrote:Why are people so angry about respecting others' pronouns?


Because it is demanded, rather than asked.

Analogy:

I was once walking in the supermarket, when a very angry lady in an assisted mobility scooter shouted at me I needed to help her get something from a shelf out of her reach. I wasn´t even in the same section as she was, just the nearest person, I guess. I did not work there; it´s just that the staff was somewhere alse at that moment.
Karen had a meltdown because I was concentrating on finding my own groceries, and oblivious to her sense of entitlement.

Initially I helped her, but when she proceded to scold me for not offering to help her before she started shouting, my goodwill was through. I told her that her attitude was horrendous, and no amount of frustration justified how she was treating me. Just because I am able-bodied doesn´t mean that she can forgo courtesies like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" etcetera.

Most people would be happy to help / assist / extend a courtesy to someone who asks nicely.
Most people feel like pronouns are now demanded with a similar lack of courtesy as the one I experienced from that Karen on wheels.

Just because you need a special consideration doesn´t give you an excuse to be a d**k about it, or a c**t, or any combination thereof.

Does that answer make sense to you?

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:24 pm

Waspocalypse wrote:
Yohaulticetlia wrote:Why are people so angry about respecting others' pronouns?


Because it is demanded, rather than asked.

Analogy:

I was once walking in the supermarket, when a very angry lady in an assisted mobility scooter shouted at me I needed to help her get something from a shelf out of her reach. I wasn´t even in the same section as she was, just the nearest person, I guess. I did not work there; it´s just that the staff was somewhere alse at that moment.
Karen had a meltdown because I was concentrating on finding my own groceries, and oblivious to her sense of entitlement.

Initially I helped her, but when she proceded to scold me for not offering to help her before she started shouting, my goodwill was through. I told her that her attitude was horrendous, and no amount of frustration justified how she was treating me. Just because I am able-bodied doesn´t mean that she can forgo courtesies like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" etcetera.

Most people would be happy to help / assist / extend a courtesy to someone who asks nicely.
Most people feel like pronouns are now demanded with a similar lack of courtesy as the one I experienced from that Karen on wheels.

Just because you need a special consideration doesn´t give you an excuse to be a d**k about it, or a c**t, or any combination thereof.

Does that answer make sense to you?

Congrats on expressing nothing. Someone was rude to you once, tough shit. If your point is people should be polite then you should start using someone’s preferred pronouns if they ask you.

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Postby New haven america » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:26 pm

Aussie Australia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Race and gender are also made up identities.

All labels are made up.

Those are made up categories.

Obviously a person's identity is based on their feelings about themselves. What on Earth else would it be? Our anatomy does not define who we are.


Well no sex is not made up and neither is race, they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures. Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis. And no you can not change your sex and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

What if they're XXY or XXX?
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:29 pm

New haven america wrote:
Aussie Australia wrote:
Well no sex is not made up and neither is race, they are real tangible genetic differences and not determined by your mental state. If your chromosomes are xy you are male if they are xx you are female that's that, There are also genetic differences between ethnicities that determines things like melanin level fat deposition and traits like hair, and facial structures. Making up your own pronouns has no real world basis. And no you can not change your sex and making gender fluid removes any practical use for that information like medical care and sport as well as any profession that has gender preferences

What if they're XXY or XXX?

In the case of the latter they’d be Vin/Diesel.

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Postby HISPIDA » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:31 pm

Heloin wrote:
New haven america wrote:What if they're XXY or XXX?

In the case of the latter they’d be Vin/Diesel.

not to be confused with paul/levesque.
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Waspocalypse
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Postby Waspocalypse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:40 pm

Waspocalypse wrote:
Yohaulticetlia wrote:Why are people so angry about respecting others' pronouns?


Because it is demanded, rather than asked.

Analogy:

I was once walking in the supermarket, when a very angry lady in an assisted mobility scooter shouted at me I needed to help her get something from a shelf out of her reach. I wasn´t even in the same section as she was, just the nearest person, I guess. I did not work there; it´s just that the staff was somewhere alse at that moment.
Karen had a meltdown because I was concentrating on finding my own groceries, and oblivious to her sense of entitlement.

Initially I helped her, but when she proceded to scold me for not offering to help her before she started shouting, my goodwill was through. I told her that her attitude was horrendous, and no amount of frustration justified how she was treating me. Just because I am able-bodied doesn´t mean that she can forgo courtesies like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" etcetera.

Most people would be happy to help / assist / extend a courtesy to someone who asks nicely.
Most people feel like pronouns are now demanded with a similar lack of courtesy as the one I experienced from that Karen on wheels.

Just because you need a special consideration doesn´t give you an excuse to be a d**k about it, or a c**t, or any combination thereof.

Does that answer make sense to you?


Heloin wrote:Congrats on expressing nothing. Someone was rude to you once, tough shit. If your point is people should be polite then you should start using someone’s preferred pronouns if they ask you.


Oh dear. If I did not make my point by my answer, you certainly made my point by your ill-written reply.

First of all, let´s focus on the words "if they ask you".
That was sort of the quintessence of my anwer. That such consideration ought to be ASKED, not DEMANDED.

The analogy (that is a comparison with a different situation but a comparable dynamic) was that the rudeness that scootered lady in the supermarket had toward me, when it came to some sliced meat, is comparable to the attitude that certain non-cis-gendered individuals have to the rest of the world, when it comes to pronouns.

I did not imply that my reluctance to respect someone´s pronouns was based on an encounter with karen in the supermarket. That was a very suspicious misinterpretation of my words.

"Expressing nothing"

"Tough shit"

"You should"

Those are demanding words, belittling my answer, my argument, and even implying that somehow, Karen was justified to shout at me, that somehow I don´t deserve common courtesy.

It is this very attitude that I said - and still say - makes people reluctant to respect pronouns. Because the pronouns all too often belong to someone with a demanding, abrasive, Karen-like attitude.

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:51 pm

Waspocalypse wrote:
Heloin wrote:Congrats on expressing nothing. Someone was rude to you once, tough shit. If your point is people should be polite then you should start using someone’s preferred pronouns if they ask you.


Oh dear. If I did not make my point by my answer, you certainly made my point by your ill-written reply.

First of all, let´s focus on the words "if they ask you".
That was sort of the quintessence of my anwer. That such consideration ought to be ASKED, not DEMANDED.

I’m not pretending to be polite, you are. Being condescending to me doesn’t help your point that you’re being polite.

The analogy (that is a comparison with a different situation but a comparable dynamic) was that the rudeness that scootered lady in the supermarket had toward me, when it came to some sliced meat, is comparable to the attitude that certain non-cis-gendered individuals have to the rest of the world, when it comes to pronouns.

It had nothing to do with the topic but I hope if she’s real that she’s out there living her best life.

I did not imply that my reluctance to respect someone´s pronouns was based on an encounter with karen in the supermarket. That was a very suspicious misinterpretation of my words.

You’re the one who brought the example up. It’s not in suspicious to make assumptions based on your argument.

"Expressing nothing"

Yep.

"Tough shit"

Yep.

"You should"

Those are demanding words, belittling my answer, my argument, and even implying that somehow, Karen was justified to shout at me, that somehow I don´t deserve common courtesy.

Yeah and? You provided a story of hearsay, one that I frankly don’t believe. If you insist that it’s a reason to be rude to people for wanting to be referred how they want to be referred then I won’t pretend like you have a real point.

It is this very attitude that I said - and still say - makes people reluctant to respect pronouns. Because the pronouns all too often belong to someone with a demanding, abrasive, Karen-like attitude.

lol

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Waspocalypse
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Postby Waspocalypse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:08 pm

Heloin wrote:
Waspocalypse wrote:
Oh dear. If I did not make my point by my answer, you certainly made my point by your ill-written reply.

First of all, let´s focus on the words "if they ask you".
That was sort of the quintessence of my anwer. That such consideration ought to be ASKED, not DEMANDED.

I’m not pretending to be polite, you are. Being condescending to me doesn’t help your point that you’re being polite.


Indeed, there is no pretense on your part - and a ton of projection toward me.

The analogy (that is a comparison with a different situation but a comparable dynamic) was that the rudeness that scootered lady in the supermarket had toward me, when it came to some sliced meat, is comparable to the attitude that certain non-cis-gendered individuals have to the rest of the world, when it comes to pronouns.

It had nothing to do with the topic but I hope if she’s real that she’s out there living her best life.


Hence the word analogy - and the explanation of what an analogy is. You are either very oblivious, or purposefully pretending to be unaware of how the answer and its clarification were constructed.

I did not imply that my reluctance to respect someone´s pronouns was based on an encounter with karen in the supermarket. That was a very suspicious misinterpretation of my words.

You’re the one who brought the example up. It’s not in suspicious to make assumptions based on your argument.


Analogy =/= example. Please see previous reply.

"Expressing nothing"

Yep.

"Tough shit"

Yep.

"You should"

Those are demanding words, belittling my answer, my argument, and even implying that somehow, Karen was justified to shout at me, that somehow I don´t deserve common courtesy.

Yeah and? You provided a story of hearsay, one that I frankly don’t believe. If you insist that it’s a reason to be rude to people for wanting to be referred how they want to be referred then I won’t pretend like you have a real point.


More examples of dismissing someone´s answer and arguments by (deliberate?) misinterpretation. And somehow implying that such misinterpretation also justifies a lack of common courtesy, or a general disbelief. Whatever your pronouns, you really are an excellent illustration of the attitude I was referring to. An attitude that bears similarities to the scootered Karen in the supermarket, whose abrasive attitude sprang from a comparable but not equal mindset, even if the situation had nothing to do with pronouns. Comparison =/= causality.

It is this very attitude that I said - and still say - makes people reluctant to respect pronouns. Because the pronouns all too often belong to someone with a demanding, abrasive, Karen-like attitude.

lol


And with that, ladies and gentlemen and everyone in between, the debater ran out of arguments, opting instead for baseless ridicule. And He/She/They/Zhe/Xhe/Shex wonders why there are people who are reluctant to extend a courtesy toward Him/Her/Them/Zhim/Xhem/Herx when it comes to pronouns. If you try to explain the difference between asking and demanding, you get "laughing out loud": a bully´s defense.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Last edited by Waspocalypse on Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HISPIDA
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Postby HISPIDA » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:09 pm

man i just don't want to be killed on the street by skinheads and trump supporters
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:18 pm

Waspocalypse wrote:
Yohaulticetlia wrote:Why are people so angry about respecting others' pronouns?


Because it is demanded, rather than asked.

Analogy:

I was once walking in the supermarket, when a very angry lady in an assisted mobility scooter shouted at me I needed to help her get something from a shelf out of her reach. I wasn´t even in the same section as she was, just the nearest person, I guess. I did not work there; it´s just that the staff was somewhere alse at that moment.
Karen had a meltdown because I was concentrating on finding my own groceries, and oblivious to her sense of entitlement.

Initially I helped her, but when she proceded to scold me for not offering to help her before she started shouting, my goodwill was through. I told her that her attitude was horrendous, and no amount of frustration justified how she was treating me. Just because I am able-bodied doesn´t mean that she can forgo courtesies like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" etcetera.

Most people would be happy to help / assist / extend a courtesy to someone who asks nicely.
Most people feel like pronouns are now demanded with a similar lack of courtesy as the one I experienced from that Karen on wheels.

Just because you need a special consideration doesn´t give you an excuse to be a d**k about it, or a c**t, or any combination thereof.

Does that answer make sense to you?

Bit weird to compare someone telling you their pronouns to a lady asking you for help. However politely or rudely it might be phrased, being told someone's pronouns isn't a request that you do them a favour.
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Salus Maior
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Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:24 pm

Hispida wrote:man i just don't want to be killed on the street by skinheads and trump supporters


I mean, I dont know how asking them to be polite and respect your pronouns is going to help that.
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Heloin
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Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Heloin » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:32 pm

Waspocalypse wrote:
Heloin wrote:I’m not pretending to be polite, you are. Being condescending to me doesn’t help your point that you’re being polite.


Indeed, there is no pretense on your part - and a ton of projection toward me.

Sure whateves.

It had nothing to do with the topic but I hope if she’s real that she’s out there living her best life.


Hence the word analogy - and the explanation of what an analogy is. You are either very oblivious, or purposefully pretending to be unaware of how the answer and its clarification were constructed.

The analogy doesn't help whatever point you intend to make, if it's even related to the topic it only works against your point. That you made a bad argument doesn't mean other people are idiots.

You’re the one who brought the example up. It’s not in suspicious to make assumptions based on your argument.


Analogy =/= example. Please see previous reply.

If you're upset about assumptions made on your arguments make better arguments.

Yep.


Yep.


Yeah and? You provided a story of hearsay, one that I frankly don’t believe. If you insist that it’s a reason to be rude to people for wanting to be referred how they want to be referred then I won’t pretend like you have a real point.


More examples of dismissing someone´s answer and arguments by (deliberate?) misinterpretation. And somehow implying that such misinterpretation also justifies a lack of common courtesy, or a general disbelief. Whatever your pronouns, you really are an excellent illustration of the attitude I was referring to. An attitude that bears similarities to the scootered Karen in the supermarket, whose abrasive attitude sprang from a comparable but not equal mindset, even if the situation had nothing to do with pronouns. Comparison =/= causality.

Do you have a point beyond that you feel like you're being forced to regard other people with dignity?

lol


And with that, ladies and gentlemen and everyone in between, the debater ran out of arguments, opting instead for baseless ridicule. And He/She/They/Zhe/Xhe/Shex wonders why there are people who are reluctant to extend a courtesy toward Him/Her/Them/Zhim/Xhem/Herx when it comes to pronouns. If you try to explain the difference between asking and demanding, you get "laughing out loud": a bully´s defense.

To be totally honest if someone being rude to you because you don't want to be even slightly polite to them is the greatest adversity you've had in your life then god I wish I could live like that.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses.

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Waspocalypse
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Posts: 22
Founded: Jun 26, 2022
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Waspocalypse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:35 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Waspocalypse wrote:
Because it is demanded, rather than asked.

Analogy:

I was once walking in the supermarket, when a very angry lady in an assisted mobility scooter shouted at me I needed to help her get something from a shelf out of her reach. I wasn´t even in the same section as she was, just the nearest person, I guess. I did not work there; it´s just that the staff was somewhere alse at that moment.
Karen had a meltdown because I was concentrating on finding my own groceries, and oblivious to her sense of entitlement.

Initially I helped her, but when she proceded to scold me for not offering to help her before she started shouting, my goodwill was through. I told her that her attitude was horrendous, and no amount of frustration justified how she was treating me. Just because I am able-bodied doesn´t mean that she can forgo courtesies like "excuse me", "please", "thank you" etcetera.

Most people would be happy to help / assist / extend a courtesy to someone who asks nicely.
Most people feel like pronouns are now demanded with a similar lack of courtesy as the one I experienced from that Karen on wheels.

Just because you need a special consideration doesn´t give you an excuse to be a d**k about it, or a c**t, or any combination thereof.

Does that answer make sense to you?

Bit weird to compare someone telling you their pronouns to a lady asking you for help. However politely or rudely it might be phrased, being told someone's pronouns isn't a request that you do them a favour.


You missed part of the analogy:

The Karen in the supermarket was shouting at me for not seeing her need for assistance from another section.
She was rude to me for not being staff, not prioritising her needs over mine, not minding my own business - whatvever. She did not ask, she DEMANDED my assistance.

Respect for pronouns is - see my first answer - readily given if the pronoun is politely told: "I prefer", "Please", "Thank you".
Respect for pronouns is a lot less readily given when is it expected that I somehow divine the correct pronoun from ten different options, and have to take verbal abuse for explaining common courtesy. If pronouns become atithetical to courtesy, I will opt for courtesy.

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