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What is a Democrat?

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Jewish Underground State
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Jewish Underground State » Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:49 am

A democrat is a member of the Democratic Party of the USA. This party is seen to be progressive in the US. A democrat will support some of these issues.

Equal Rights For All
Pro Choice
Cutting funding from the military
And funding public education
Last edited by Jewish Underground State on Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:26 am

Thomasi wrote:
Sordhau wrote:
Dems are socially progressive, economically liberal, politically conservative.

Reps are socially traditionalist, economically liberal, politically conservative.

The differences are few enough to not really matter in the grand scheme of things.


Republicans are NOT economically liberal. If not for our two DINOs we would have passed a massive $6T economic package for the lower class americans.

Those were just the rotating villains chosen this time 'round.
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Postby Saiwania » Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:38 am

Thomasi wrote:Republicans are NOT economically liberal. If not for our two DINOs we would have passed a massive $6T economic package for the lower class americans.


It is probably for the best that this didn't get passed. If inflation is far above 2% as of now, we don't need $6 trillion more dollars floating around so inflation can be 12%+ instead. We need more money taken out of economy and not added to it.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Crylante » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:25 pm

A Democrat is a supporter of the Italian centre to centre-left Democratic Party which emerged from the amalgamation of post-communist social democrats with social liberals and the left-wing of the old formerly dominant Christian Democracy party.
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:56 pm

How does the old quote go? "I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."

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Postby Harjanika » Sat Jun 25, 2022 1:56 pm

Ikania wrote:Let me try as best I can to explain the Democratic Party without much snark or simplification. Because it's honestly a very interesting question with an interesting answer. Forgive the length of this post, but I think understanding the history of the Democrats is important to understanding where they are today.

What is a Democrat? The meaning of the word in American political discourse has changed many times over the past two centuries. A Democrat is a member of the Democratic Party, the oldest continuous political party in the United States. With its roots in the original Democratic-Republican Party, the Democrats formed in 1828 on a set of common ideas: low tariffs, a weak central government, against the national bank, and for expanding the country's territory. Their opposition for most of this time were the Whigs, who favoured high tariffs, internal improvements, a national bank, and were against territorial expansion. There were anti-slavery northern Democrats and pro-slavery southern Whigs (Cotton Whigs), but for the most part it was a north-south divide.

By the time the civil war came around, the Whigs had fallen apart over divisions on slavery and immigration, and the Republican Party came around as a pro-tariff, pro-improvement and most importantly, abolitionist party. Northern Democrats mostly wanted to continue finding compromises on slavery to keep the union together, while Southern Democrats would rather die than give up their slaves. The party broke in two in 1860 shortly before the election of Lincoln (a Republican), and during the civil war, Northern Democrats supported the Union, although many pushed for a compromise that would allow the South to either secede or keep their slaves (they saw the war effort as a waste and futile effort). After the war concluded, the Democrats lost power for many years. They didn't win the Presidency until 1884. In this time, they mostly pushed for the end of Reconstruction in the South, and in the North, the business wing (Bourbon Democrats) supported low tariffs, low taxes, anti-imperialism and immigration. The party was controlled by the corrupt political machine called Tammany Hall, run by rich industrial bosses who used the votes of immigrants and the working class to get what they wanted. Their power waned by the end of the century.

In 1896, while the Republicans fell in line behind their own business wing, populist Democrats won control of the party, supporting radical measures against tariffs and against business. Their platform had to do with workers' rights to form unions, against the railroad monopolies, and mostly representing the interests of farmers and urban labourers. For the most part, however, the Democrats were the party of white supremacy, and from 1876 onward the Republicans gave up trying to enforce civil rights - this was the Jim Crow era. Most former slaveowners were Democrats, as were members of the Ku Klux Klan. Their voter base also included large amounts of Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants, which caused a bit of division around the time of prohibition. Notably, the Democrats didn't win any elections while the populists were in control. Instead, the progressive mantle was carried by western and northern Republicans, such as Theodore Roosevelt and Robert La Follette - ultimately, the Republican business wing won out.

Woodrow Wilson was the first "progressive" Democratic President, and he laid the groundwork for the party's later embrace of liberalism. While not a champion of civil rights (quite the opposite), he achieved a number of domestic reforms that made life better for the average worker. He outlawed child labour, created the eight-hour work day, and established overtime pay laws, among many other things. He also was the first truly internationalist President, having established the League of Nations, although his own country refused to join it.

Wilson was the last Democrat to hold the office until 1932, when the Republicans' longstanding support of laissez-faire capitalism and big business led to the Great Depression. In comes Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who created the "New Deal". The short story of the New Deal is that FDR spent a lot of money to create programs to employ people out of work; he invested heavily in the economy, and led the country out of its economic woes and into the 40s. Roosevelt, once and for all, broke the back of isolationism and brought America into the world during World War II. The United States led the founding of the United Nations, saw some advances in civil rights, and moved away from the ultra-capitalist economic philosophy that had guided it hitherto.

After Roosevelt and his successor, Truman, these were the Democratic Party's values: Liberalism, as a cohesive philosophy; interventionist foreign policy and strength against the Soviet Union; civil rights, first in small increments and then in leaps and bounds. The election of John F. Kennedy solidified the liberalism of the Democrats, as civil rights became one of his major initiatives. During the civil rights struggle of the 60s, JFK was assassinated, and his successor Lyndon B. Johnson used the good will and popularity of Kennedy to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This was a turning point. Until now, there were conservative and liberal Democrats and Republicans - but that year, the Republican Party was seized by its conservative wing, while Johnson made it clear that the Democrats would no longer stand for racism and white supremacy. The south, which had always voted Democrat without fail, started to switch in droves to the Republican Party. In the next few years, evangelical Protestants coalesced with business interests to create a new brand of conservative, sometimes called neoconservatism. The Conservative Democrats made a few last stands, particularly the Presidential runs of Strom Thurmond and George Wallace, but by 1972 they were fast on their way out.

By 1980, the party lines had finally solidified to something you can recognize today. The Democrats were liberals, and the Republicans were conservatives. After twelve years of neoconservative government under Reagan and Bush, the GOP (as the Republicans are called) was more united than ever. And the Democrats, now the party of high taxes and unions, had to find a way to win in the late 20th century after some stinging defeats with George McGovern and Michael Dukakis. In comes Bill Clinton, whose politics are very similar to your own Tony Blair. He drove significantly to the centre ground, alienating some progressive Democrats but by and large maintaining high popularity among most voters.

Between 2000 and 2016, the progressive wing of the Democrats mostly kept quiet while the centrist mainstream did their thing. However, they more or less exploded when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, not only appealing to the old guard left, but inspiring a new generation of young progressive voters. Joe Biden has tried to tie the knot between the moderate and progressive wing of the party, to some effect, but it remains to be seen how well that will work by 2024. The Republicans, meanwhile, have completely abandoned neoconservatism for right-wing populism under Donald Trump. This has had the effect of driving more centrist voters to the Democrats, only intensifying the party's division between its two factions.

What does it mean to be a Democrat in 2022? I would say this: higher taxes on the rich, universal healthcare, labour unions, an interventionist foreign policy, supporting the rights of LGBT+ people, women and minorities. The Republican Party by contrast is isolationist, anti-union, highly reactionary, and violently anti-abortion. There are isolationists in both parties, and you'll find that progressive Democrats sometimes have concerning similarities with Trumpist Republicans on foreign policy. But by and large, if we were to compare to your own parties...

The Democrats are Labour - its moderate wing more like Keir Starmer or the Lib Dems, its left wing more like Jeremy Corbyn. The Republicans are far past the Conservatives at this point, more akin to UKIP or the politics of Nigel Farage. Some disaffected progressives would find more in common with the UK Green Party than anyone. And, of course, the country is more polarized than ever.

I hope this answers your question.


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Postby Meadowfields » Sat Jun 25, 2022 3:31 pm

Crylante wrote:A Democrat is a supporter of the Italian centre to centre-left Democratic Party which emerged from the amalgamation of post-communist social democrats with social liberals and the left-wing of the old formerly dominant Christian Democracy party.

Wrong country.
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The United Penguin Commonwealth
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Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:27 pm

to put it incredibly simply, anyone left of the center-right. there are two political parties in America that matter, and they're both pretty fuzzy and wide-reaching. both parties (especially the democrats) encompass a wide range of ideologies, which is why people have had trouble definitively defining who is and isn't a Democrat.

so the first thing you have to understand is that American politics is weighted towards the right. there are a number of reasons for this, the primary one probably being the electoral college, a system that disproportionately favors small states in terms of voting power. small states which tend to vote for the rightist Republican party. additionally, the senate, which is composed of two people from each state, tends to be republican because there are more republican states than Democrat states.

to drastically oversimplify this, Democrats are "leftist", Republicans are "rightist". but not the normal left and right. most Democrat politicians aren't social democrats like the labour parties of European nations. instead, both parties are somewhat rightist, Democrats being more moderate and Republicans ranging from the right to the far-right. both parties are a sort of mix of liberalism and conservatism. note that "conservatism" can also mean a different thing in America. the biggest difference is cultural. Democrats are generally progressive and somewhat culturally left. Republicans are traditionalist and culturally right.

my definitions have been kinda vague, so maybe it'll help to list some general policies:
Democrats support universal healthcare (it might surprise you to learn this, but government-provided healthcare is a major debate topic in the US)
Democrats support unions
Democrats support higher minimum wages, subsidies, and benefits for the poor
Democrats support investing in renewable energy
Democrats wish to improve public schools and school availability (student loan debt is a huge problem in the US)
Democrats support LGBTQ+ rights
Democrats support social equality
Democrats support voting rights
Democrats support abortion
Democrats support immigration reform that makes it easier for immigrants to enter the US legally
Democrats support Puerto Rican statehood (the island of Puerto Rico has more people living on it than multiple states, but is not currently a state and lacks representation in the government) and sometimes DC statehood (the District of Columbia, the capital region of the US, which houses more people than some states, is not currently in a state and is not a state of its own)
Democrats support gun control
Democrats support the abolishment of the death penalty and often also torture
Democrats support the right to privacy
Democrats overlap a lot with Republicans over foreign policy, but Democrats tend to be less isolationist.

note that these statements are general and don't apply to everybody. this is also by no means an exhaustive list. if I'm honest, I read the article on wikipedia myself to make sure on this stuff.
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Postby Existential Cats » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:34 pm

Major-Tom wrote:How does the old quote go? "I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat."

Will Rogers.

Another good quote of his: "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and you've got to be a humorist to stay one."
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Postby Big Jim P » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:41 pm

Sordhau wrote:
The Jamesian Republic wrote:Democrat- Liberalism
Republican- Conservatism


Point of order: both parties are liberal and conservative by every definition save for the American one, so this doesn't help explain anything to an outsider.


OP was asking about American politics. Thus, use American definitions.
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Postby Big Jim P » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:44 pm

Emotional Support Crocodile wrote:The lesser of two evils.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wait, you actually believe this?

Even funnier.
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Postby DeSanta Peradino » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:44 pm

Democrats don't hate the gays
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Postby Floofybit » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:49 pm

DeSanta Peradino wrote:Democrats don't hate the gays

I'm conservative and I don't hate them :blink:

The biggest different imo is that democrats promote freedom even if it harms the people and country and conservatives restrict freedom to help the people and country. :)
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Jun 25, 2022 4:50 pm

Thomasi wrote:History

In the mid 1800s the Republic party was the abolitionist party and the party of civil rights & the democrats were the party of slavery.

The North Republican, South Democrat held until FDR

After FDR Democrats were the Economically Left socially conservative party and the GOP was the Economically not as far left but close and socially liberal.

After 1964 the Democrats became Economically Left and Socially Liberal with the GOP changing to Economically Right and pro big business and socially conservative aka the southern strategy.

That's not the greatest summary- before the very late 20th century Democrats simply didn't have a shared ideology. They were an alliance of political machines and were not based on shared policy views. And Republicans prior to the Reagan revolution had very similar shared ideological commitments to what they have today- pro-business, immigration skeptical, opposed to communism/socialism and left wing social experiments, generally pro-security state, and family values.
The big change in the late 20th century was democrats started imposing litmus tests in ways their base didn't like and republicans started wanting to cut taxes. Thus, political realignment.
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Postby The United Penguin Commonwealth » Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:02 pm

Floofybit wrote:
DeSanta Peradino wrote:Democrats don't hate the gays

I'm conservative and I don't hate them :blink:

The biggest different imo is that democrats promote freedom even if it harms the people and country and conservatives restrict freedom to help the people and country. :)


that's almost exactly the opposite of what happens.
Last edited by The United Penguin Commonwealth on Sat Jun 25, 2022 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sordhau » Sat Jun 25, 2022 5:04 pm

Big Jim P wrote:
Sordhau wrote:
Point of order: both parties are liberal and conservative by every definition save for the American one, so this doesn't help explain anything to an outsider.


OP was asking about American politics. Thus, use American definitions.


American definitions aren't going to help a non-American understand American politics. "Liberal" and "Conservative" mean entirely different things across the pond.
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Postby Narland » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:55 pm

Harjanika wrote:
Ikania wrote:Let me try as best I can to explain the Democratic Party without much snark or simplification. Because it's honestly a very interesting question with an interesting answer. Forgive the length of this post, but I think understanding the history of the Democrats is important to understanding where they are today.
What is a Democrat? The meaning of the word in American political discourse has changed many times over the past two centuries. A Democrat is a member of the Democratic Party, the oldest continuous political party in the United States. With its roots in the original Democratic-Republican Party, the Democrats formed in 1828 on a set of common ideas: low tariffs, a weak central government, against the national bank, and for expanding the country's territory. Their opposition for most of this time were the Whigs, who favoured high tariffs, internal improvements, a national bank, and were against territorial expansion. There were anti-slavery northern Democrats and pro-slavery southern Whigs (Cotton Whigs), but for the most part it was a north-south divide.

By the time the civil war came around, the Whigs had fallen apart over divisions on slavery and immigration, and the Republican Party came around as a pro-tariff, pro-improvement and most importantly, abolitionist party. Northern Democrats mostly wanted to continue finding compromises on slavery to keep the union together, while Southern Democrats would rather die than give up their slaves. The party broke in two in 1860 shortly before the election of Lincoln (a Republican), and during the civil war, Northern Democrats supported the Union, although many pushed for a compromise that would allow the South to either secede or keep their slaves (they saw the war effort as a waste and futile effort). After the war concluded, the Democrats lost power for many years. They didn't win the Presidency until 1884. In this time, they mostly pushed for the end of Reconstruction in the South, and in the North, the business wing (Bourbon Democrats) supported low tariffs, low taxes, anti-imperialism and immigration. The party was controlled by the corrupt political machine called Tammany Hall, run by rich industrial bosses who used the votes of immigrants and the working class to get what they wanted. Their power waned by the end of the century.

In 1896, while the Republicans fell in line behind their own business wing, populist Democrats won control of the party, supporting radical measures against tariffs and against business. Their platform had to do with workers' rights to form unions, against the railroad monopolies, and mostly representing the interests of farmers and urban labourers. For the most part, however, the Democrats were the party of white supremacy, and from 1876 onward the Republicans gave up trying to enforce civil rights - this was the Jim Crow era. Most former slaveowners were Democrats, as were members of the Ku Klux Klan. Their voter base also included large amounts of Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants, which caused a bit of division around the time of prohibition. Notably, the Democrats didn't win any elections while the populists were in control. Instead, the progressive mantle was carried by western and northern Republicans, such as Theodore Roosevelt and Robert La Follette - ultimately, the Republican business wing won out.

Woodrow Wilson was the first "progressive" Democratic President, and he laid the groundwork for the party's later embrace of liberalism. While not a champion of civil rights (quite the opposite), he achieved a number of domestic reforms that made life better for the average worker. He outlawed child labour, created the eight-hour work day, and established overtime pay laws, among many other things. He also was the first truly internationalist President, having established the League of Nations, although his own country refused to join it.

Wilson was the last Democrat to hold the office until 1932, when the Republicans' longstanding support of laissez-faire capitalism and big business led to the Great Depression. In comes Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who created the "New Deal". The short story of the New Deal is that FDR spent a lot of money to create programs to employ people out of work; he invested heavily in the economy, and led the country out of its economic woes and into the 40s. Roosevelt, once and for all, broke the back of isolationism and brought America into the world during World War II. The United States led the founding of the United Nations, saw some advances in civil rights, and moved away from the ultra-capitalist economic philosophy that had guided it hitherto.

After Roosevelt and his successor, Truman, these were the Democratic Party's values: Liberalism, as a cohesive philosophy; interventionist foreign policy and strength against the Soviet Union; civil rights, first in small increments and then in leaps and bounds. The election of John F. Kennedy solidified the liberalism of the Democrats, as civil rights became one of his major initiatives. During the civil rights struggle of the 60s, JFK was assassinated, and his successor Lyndon B. Johnson used the good will and popularity of Kennedy to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This was a turning point. Until now, there were conservative and liberal Democrats and Republicans - but that year, the Republican Party was seized by its conservative wing, while Johnson made it clear that the Democrats would no longer stand for racism and white supremacy. The south, which had always voted Democrat without fail, started to switch in droves to the Republican Party. In the next few years, evangelical Protestants coalesced with business interests to create a new brand of conservative, sometimes called neoconservatism. The Conservative Democrats made a few last stands, particularly the Presidential runs of Strom Thurmond and George Wallace, but by 1972 they were fast on their way out.

By 1980, the party lines had finally solidified to something you can recognize today. The Democrats were liberals, and the Republicans were conservatives. After twelve years of neoconservative government under Reagan and Bush, the GOP (as the Republicans are called) was more united than ever. And the Democrats, now the party of high taxes and unions, had to find a way to win in the late 20th century after some stinging defeats with George McGovern and Michael Dukakis. In comes Bill Clinton, whose politics are very similar to your own Tony Blair. He drove significantly to the centre ground, alienating some progressive Democrats but by and large maintaining high popularity among most voters.

Between 2000 and 2016, the progressive wing of the Democrats mostly kept quiet while the centrist mainstream did their thing. However, they more or less exploded when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, not only appealing to the old guard left, but inspiring a new generation of young progressive voters. Joe Biden has tried to tie the knot between the moderate and progressive wing of the party, to some effect, but it remains to be seen how well that will work by 2024. The Republicans, meanwhile, have completely abandoned neoconservatism for right-wing populism under Donald Trump. This has had the effect of driving more centrist voters to the Democrats, only intensifying the party's division between its two factions.

What does it mean to be a Democrat in 2022? I would say this: higher taxes on the rich, universal healthcare, labour unions, an interventionist foreign policy, supporting the rights of LGBT+ people, women and minorities. The Republican Party by contrast is isolationist, anti-union, highly reactionary, and violently anti-abortion. There are isolationists in both parties, and you'll find that progressive Democrats sometimes have concerning similarities with Trumpist Republicans on foreign policy. But by and large, if we were to compare to your own parties...

The Democrats are Labour - its moderate wing more like Keir Starmer or the Lib Dems, its left wing more like Jeremy Corbyn. The Republicans are far past the Conservatives at this point, more akin to UKIP or the politics of Nigel Farage. Some disaffected progressives would find more in common with the UK Green Party than anyone. And, of course, the country is more polarized than ever.


I hope this answers your question.


Wow! Thank you so much! Best response so far! :D
Harjanika wrote:As a Brit, I am confused. On another thread I mistook a Democrat for a Republican (Thomasi). So I am now questioning to myself what a Democrat truly is. Thank you :D


Except for the jaundiced terms used to describe the Republican Party, and some inaccurate about the Republicans since 1960s, this is a good summary of the Democratic Party.

I would like to add that Labour never formed as a party in the US because of various Federal Government policy decisions, and socio-economic concerns of the country that diffused the independent third party left away from becoming a distinct coalition like it did in Canada.

Most US Democrats will vary from Democratic Socialist (Alexandria Ortega Cortez) (a small but growing part) to Regulated Market Economy with (comparatively) large safety net (Clintions) (the old guard that is fading away). But by and large, most Democrats are still what could be vaguely described as continental European center to center right.

2020 Democratic Party Platform
https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/2020-Democratic-Party-Platform.pdf
A bullet list of Democratic Party Positions
https://www.ontheissues.org/Democratic_Party.htm
Last edited by Narland on Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:03 pm

I think America is also confused on what a Democrat is as well. So you're not alone.
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Postby Hamidiye » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:17 am

Floofybit wrote:
DeSanta Peradino wrote:Democrats don't hate the gays

I'm conservative and I don't hate them :blink:

The biggest different imo is that democrats promote freedom even if it harms the people and country and conservatives restrict freedom to help the people and country. :)


Sorry if it's wrong, but I faintly remember once reading that Abraham Lincoln was a republican, no? :D
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hukhalia » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:19 am

Jewish Underground State wrote:A democrat is a member of the Democratic Party of the USA. This party is seen to be progressive in the US. A democrat will support some of these issues.

Equal Rights For All
Pro Choice
Cutting funding from the military
And funding public education

Equal Rights for All*

* unless you can't be used as a token minority, and if you don't like us you're an uncle sam who secretly wants the republicans to win
"It was this alone that drew so many Europeans to colonial North America: the dream in the settler mind of each man becoming a petty lord of his own land. Thus, the tradition of individualism and egalitarianism in America was rooted in the poisoned concept of equal privileges for a new nation of European conquerors." J. Sakai

an advocate of total warfare against heterosexual society, any/all

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Hukhalia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hukhalia » Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:22 am

Big Jim P wrote:
Sordhau wrote:
Point of order: both parties are liberal and conservative by every definition save for the American one, so this doesn't help explain anything to an outsider.


OP was asking about American politics. Thus, use American definitions.

American politics are (unfortunately) so dominant in the world that they affect other countries that don't use yank definitions. To assume all discourse around American politics has to take place within the profoundly artificial boundaries set up by Americans is basically trying to superimpose "Americanism" onto foreigners.
"It was this alone that drew so many Europeans to colonial North America: the dream in the settler mind of each man becoming a petty lord of his own land. Thus, the tradition of individualism and egalitarianism in America was rooted in the poisoned concept of equal privileges for a new nation of European conquerors." J. Sakai

an advocate of total warfare against heterosexual society, any/all

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WayNeacTia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:07 am

At this point they are just name for two groups of children who fight and squabble on Twitter and Tiktok, instead of running the country in the best interests of the people, like they were elected to do...
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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Emotional Support Crocodile
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Founded: Jun 06, 2022
New York Times Democracy

Postby Emotional Support Crocodile » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:54 am

Hamidiye wrote:
Floofybit wrote:I'm conservative and I don't hate them :blink:

The biggest different imo is that democrats promote freedom even if it harms the people and country and conservatives restrict freedom to help the people and country. :)


Sorry if it's wrong, but I faintly remember once reading that Abraham Lincoln was a republican, no? :D


I don't think personally that political beliefs of parties is that consistent over time. The Republican Party of fifty years ago is not the same as the Republican Party of today, same goes for the Democratic Party.
Just another surprising item on the bagging scale of life


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Untecna
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Untecna » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:58 am

The Holy Therns wrote:Baby don't hurt me.

Don't hurt me.
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