[Abortion Thread] A Tough Pill To Swallow

[Alcala-Cordel]

Shouldn't you support it then?

No, because the baby is a separate person.

It's not a baby, it's not a person, and it's definitely not separate. If it was separate it wouldn't be developing inside someone.

Being unvaccinated, on the other hand, can cause separate people to die.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Y'all are just haggling at this point.

I was getting ready to leave but someone doubted that the Bible shows God considers a fetus a baby and wanted scripture. I am going to Genesis next.

nobody cares

[El Lazaro]

"And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost." Luke 1:41

Are you genuinely unaware of kicking in the womb?

Hardly innocent if its using another person's body without permission.

I've already explained why a toddler wandering into someone's house shouldn't be shot in the head.

Gun-grabber take
Free, patriotic, and sane states like Florida will stand up for the right to defend life, liberty, and property even if woke moralists won’t.

[New Goshen]

No, because the baby is a separate person.

Yes, and they might spread the virus and possibly even kill someone without the vaccine.

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

[Hispida]

"And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost." Luke 1:41

this is hardly evidence of anything, and even if it was, the laws of a country overrule the views of a group of people. i say this as a christian --- the bible should have no bearing on the laws of a country.

[Spirit of Hope]

First I haven't argued for absolute bodily autonomy. I'm actually fine with certain limited impositions. Second they weren't punished, they just weren't allowed to remain in the armed forces.

That is punishment, a loss of a career.

You aren't guaranteed a career in the armed forces, you have to compete for promotions and re enlistment spots. So no, not keeping a job in the military isn't a punishment its a rather ordinary thing to have happen.

[The Pacific Northwest]

Actually in a lot of cases (at least in the US) women have to jump through numerous hoops to get sterilized. There’s always some reason for not doing it, usually age, not having had enough children yet, the husband wanting more children (which is alarming), or in my case a hypothetical future husband I haven’t even met that might want a family.

I have my reasons for not wanting children and hating kids isn’t one of them, but the wishes of a nonexistent husband matter more than mine.

It’s not just women who know they may want children later, it’s every woman. So for myself and every other woman who wants to get a tubal ligation and hasn’t been able to, contraception remains the only form of pregnancy prevention besides abstinence (which still doesn’t work if rape is involved).

Actually, everyone does, most doctors won't give vasectomies to guys younger than 25.

It's just that women are vocal about this than men are.

It doesn’t surprise me that women would be more vocal considering we’re the ones who have to be pregnant. Regardless, I feel like anyone should be able to, it’s their body, their decision. For every medical procedure you are informed of possible risks, and doctors are supposed to make sure you understand vasectomies and tubal ligations are intended to be permanent and may not be reversible. If they regret it later that’s their fault. Unless the doctor intentionally mislead the person and lied to them, then it wouldn’t I suppose.

Based on everything I’ve seen (anecdotal of course) men still seem to have an easier time in that women seem to be more likely to be told they don’t have enough children yet, may want more later, spouse/future spouse might want some/more later, etc. The doctor who did my grandmother’s tubal ligation required permission from her husband in person, and my mom wasn’t able to get one because she wasn’t married. Meanwhile several of the men in my immediate family have had vasectomies, some while under 25, with zero questions asked.

I wish that disparity didn’t exist anywhere.

[Necroghastia]

Yes, and they might spread the virus and possibly even kill someone without the vaccine.

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

getting rid of the covid misinformation rule was one of the dumbest things the mods ever did

[New Goshen]

"And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost." Luke 1:41

this is hardly evidence of anything, and even if it was, the laws of a country overrule the views of a group of people. i say this as a christian --- the bible should have no bearing on the laws of a country.

That is not why am posting this. I was challenged to show how God sees a fetus. I know most really don't care.

[Laasmistan]

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

[Hispida]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

getting rid of the covid misinformation rule was one of the dumbest things the mods ever did

that's a very bold statement

i personally think the implementation of the rules lawyering rule was dumber because it basically takes away any chance for people who actually have objections against their ruling to do so

[El Lazaro]

Yes, and they might spread the virus and possibly even kill someone without the vaccine.

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

I got COVID and took the vaccine 9 months later. Coincidence? I think not.

[New Goshen]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

getting rid of the covid misinformation rule was one of the dumbest things the mods ever did

Everyone knows it doesn't work. By the way, are a freedom lover? All these people claim to support freedom except when it comes to speech. Kill a baby? Sure. Freedom of speech? No.

[Hispida]

this is hardly evidence of anything, and even if it was, the laws of a country overrule the views of a group of people. i say this as a christian --- the bible should have no bearing on the laws of a country.

That is not why am posting this. I was challenged to show how God sees a fetus. I know most really don't care.

we don't know how God sees a fetus. we literally can't know anything God knows. that's, like, one of the most intrinsic parts of God being God. regardless, the bible wasn't written by God. it was written by a bunch of people at the time writing down things Jesus did or stories they heard of God's grace.

biblical literalism is stupid.

[Godular]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

I got COVID and took the vaccine 9 months later. Coincidence? I think not.

I'm human and I got COVID. Clearly, Leprechauns are real.

[Laasmistan]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

getting rid of the covid misinformation rule was one of the dumbest things the mods ever did

Did they really? Oh damn.

[Fahran]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

[Tarsonis]

1. You do not know anything about this topic. 2. Like this is just outright wrong.

1. I say that about you every time you pop in here but that hasn't stopped you yet.
2. Nope. The Catholic Church has a long and detailed history of editing the Bible to suit its whims.

For the record of anyone else reading this, this is demonstrably false. Archeological record shows quite the opposite. The Nestle atland chronicling of scripture and alterations show the canon of scripture to be remarkedly accurate to the original works. What he's trying to pass off as "editing" is are generally scribal errors. While there are a fair number of discrepencies that managed to become circulated, there are no major variations that change the meaning of the text as NHA suggests. This is simply a perpetuated falsehood.

Like how Catholic priests are the only ones not allowed to marry or have kids, not because it's Godly but because the Church wanted to be the first in line to inherit any land or side businesses they owned.

This is also demonstrably false as teachings on priestly celibacy go back as early as the 4th century and was already a doctrinal norm in the west early on. What NHA here is referring to is the Gregorian reforms of the 11th century, which did not institute brand new teaching so much as bound clergy back to previous teachings of which they were slacking on. Also, in general practice the 3rd son in a family became priests, and didn't stand to inherit much of anything. And children of priests typically became priests themselves.

Or the fact that Pope's were basically warlords for centuries?

Fair charge, but really has more to do with fudalism than anything else.

Or what about paying to get out of Hell, you know, the thing that spurred Martin Luther to write The 95 Thesis and start The Protestant Reformation?

This is also a perpetuated falsehood. Indulgences are remittance from purgatory, not hell, an important distinction. Martin Luther's contension was that the Pope had no jurisdiction to remove the burden of purgatory from people, beyond what he himself imposed on them. Why this myth about hell gets perpetuated is really mystifying considering a simple google search can bring up the 95 theses themselves. The selling of indulgences was admittedly an abuse, and corrected during the counter reformation.

[Fahran]

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

No. I want Uncle Sam to oppress me.

In all seriousness, I feel like the availability of artificial wombs would pretty much eliminate the moral dilemma completely.

[New Goshen]

"And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her,, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:22,23

There are more, but hopefully this will suffice.

[The Pacific Northwest]

I’m not sexually active either but I’ve looked into it. Because of some unfortunate events, I’m paranoid of having that choice (to not get pregnant) taken from me like it has been for so many others. Pregnancy in general is actually my worst fear.

I’d been taking the pill for years for other medical reasons and got the implant recently. Since it’s stuck in my arm it can’t be tampered with and I don’t have to worry as much. It’s comforting knowing I’m somewhat protected no matter what, but I’d love to not need to worry at all. Unfortunately that’s proving to not be possible. Hell a friend of mine’s mom is having issues getting approval for a hysterectomy and she has uterine cancer. I don’t have a medical reason so if she’s having problems, it’ll be impossible for me.

Ah, tokophobia? I might have that myself since I have a massive hang up on thoughts of pregnancy. Again, I definitely feel fortunate about having zero interest in having sex. It saves me a lot of stress and headache. If I was sexually active, though, then I absolutely would be taking all possible precautions. If I still somehow got pregnant then I would be aborting. My religion does not forbid it.

I’d never really thought about it before but now that you mention it yeah, that’s definitely an aspect of it. I’ve lived with various pregnant family members and it was really hard on them, and in a couple instances there was sexual assault involved. So I guess I’m just traumatized by the idea honestly. I just can’t imagine going through the process, much less unwillingly.

[New Goshen]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

[Laasmistan]

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

Cool. I know multiple people who lost family members to Covid.

[Fahran]

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

I will reiterate that anecdote is not the singular form of data. I cannot explain specific personal experiences to you. I can tell you that vaccines that were developed to immunize against particular variants of COVID appear to have been broadly effective in those capacities. Certain vaccines may not have immunized against new variants, which could explain the high rates of infection you observed, but that doesn't suggest that vaccines were broadly ineffective. Vaccines lowered risk of infection and severe symptoms. Measurably. And the results have been confirmed by dozens and dozens of peer-reviewed studies. You can and should read them.

[Hispida]

"And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her,, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:22,23

There are more, but hopefully this will suffice.

counterpoint: genesis didn't happen and is largely a mishmash of creation myths from a myriad of cultures and mythologies at the time combined with a mix of actual jewish history and national foundation legends. hell, stories like the flood in exodus are likely adoptions of sumerian and babylonian mythology adopted by early jewish writers. genesis is a metaphor to show how humanity was created in the image of God, by the love of God, and that existence is a reflection of God's goodness. to take basically anything in it seriously --- from the earth being created in 6 days to adam and eve to sodom and gomorrah --- is dumb.

again, biblical literalism is fucking stupid and nobody outside of batshit fundamentalists or harold camping takes/took it seriously.

then again, that's for the CDT, not here.