[Abortion Thread] A Tough Pill To Swallow

[Spirit of Hope]

What to you is a pre fetal abortion? Most people don't know they are pregnant until after implantation.

When the embryo becomes a fetus, which is way after implantation. Pregnancies become fetuses about 9 weeks in according to google.

Why 9 weeks? What happens at that point that makes the fetus worthy of protecting over the mothers right to control her body?

[New haven america]

Any states that have fully banned abortion for the foreseeable future?

South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and Kentucky.

Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee all have it on the chopping block and should be illegal within the month.

Oh, and the Reps have promised they'd make it illegal nationwide if they win '24. So much for state's rights.

[Fahran]

An abortion is a consequence, even while it is taking resposibility.

Yeah, abortion, as I mentioned before, carries some risks - though fewer than carrying a pregnancy to term. For reference, the figure I've seen is that abortion is around 14 times less deadly than live birth. And that's before we get into the emotional, spiritual, and social consequences of abortion. Or other potential medical complications.

[Neutraligon]

What to you is a pre fetal abortion? Most people don't know they are pregnant until after implantation.

When the embryo becomes a fetus, which is way after implantation. Pregnancies become fetuses about 9 weeks in according to google.

So basically you are saying that 79% of abortions that are typically had in the US should be allowed. If you go to 13 weeks (so first trimester) You end up at 92%. Considering all the complications that women attempting to get abortions to face, this is not a bad number. Only 1% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, and my guess, the majority of those are due to the life of the mother.

[Khurkhogur]

Too bad you can't do that, since this is a religious belief These people do not believe it is possible for marital rape to be a thing.

Yeah, that doesn't work like that. If you use religious belief to try justifying violations of the law, you will be ignored completely as Employment Division v. Smith goes to show.

Why do you assume that a person having an abortion is shrugging it off?

Abortion is what I meant by "shrugging off". I don't mean the actual feelings the person in question has about having an abortion.

[Port Caverton]

Any states that have fully banned abortion for the foreseeable future?

South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and Kentucky.

Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee all have it on the chopping block and should be illegal within the month.

Oh, and the Reps have promised they'd make it illegal nationwide if they win '24. So much for state's rights.

Like full bans or restrictions?

[Fahran]

South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and Kentucky.

Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee all have it on the chopping block and should be illegal within the month.

Oh, and the Reps have promised they'd make it illegal nationwide if they win '24. So much for state's rights.

Like full bans or restrictions?

Bans on abortion except when the mother's life is at risk. At least on paper.

[Neutraligon]

Too bad you can't do that, since this is a religious belief These people do not believe it is possible for marital rape to be a thing.

Yeah, that doesn't work like that. If you use religious belief to try justifying violations of the law, you will be ignored completely as Employment Division v. Smith goes to show.

Why do you assume that a person having an abortion is shrugging it off?

Abortion is what I meant by "shrugging off". I don't mean the actual feelings the person in question has about having an abortion.

Funny thing, the women in that marriage agree that they should be sexually available to their husband whenever their husband desires, normally because they have been taught that since childhood. The court cannot do a damned thing about it. And who exactly would bring this before a court? The wife? given the background not going to happen.

And why do you believe that an abortion is "shrugging it off?"

Read the article, most of it was pure speculation.

[Khurkhogur]

So basically you are saying that 79% of abortions that are typically had in the US should be allowed. If you go to 13 weeks (so first trimester) You end up at 92%. Considering all the complications that women attempting to get abortions to face, this is not a bad number. Only 1% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, and my guess, the majority of those are due to the life of the mother.

If it's before the embryo becomes a fetus, then yes. I think at that point it's morally ok. Mind you, that doesn't mean I think pre-fetal abortions are a good thing necessarily, I just think that they're morally much more sound. This is why I said earlier that I think Roe v. Wade was a reasonable compromise - it allowed for the prohibition of abortions during the third trimester as long as that prohibition had exceptions for maternal health. I think that's sensible.

You know I've read that the privacy clause of Roe v. Wade was very shaky, but reading over the general outline of the ruling, I think it was a pretty reasonable compromise.

[Celritannia]

gotta lul at how the dems are using this as mid-terms ammo. "we failed to protect your rights despite controlling the senate, house, and presidency, please vote for us so we can continue to fail to protect your rights" type energy

It is a valid concern. Suburban women tipped the scales for Biden against Trump, if they're angered- it'll be more to one party's detriment. If Biden gets reelected it means the US economy will never get out of inflation because those in charge will keep wanting bigger and bigger spending bills passed and more taxes on top of everything costing more.

Yeah, because the US economy was so good under Trump

[Neutraligon]

So basically you are saying that 79% of abortions that are typically had in the US should be allowed. If you go to 13 weeks (so first trimester) You end up at 92%. Considering all the complications that women attempting to get abortions to face, this is not a bad number. Only 1% of abortions occur after 21 weeks, and my guess, the majority of those are due to the life of the mother.

If it's before the embryo becomes a fetus, then yes. I think at that point it's morally ok. Mind you, that doesn't mean I think pre-fetal abortions are a good thing necessarily, I just think that they're morally much more sound. This is why I said earlier that I think Roe v. Wade was a reasonable compromise - it allowed for the prohibition of abortions during the third trimester as long as that prohibition had exceptions for maternal health. I think that's sensible.

So 79% of abortions you think should be permitted as well as the whatever percent that is due to the life of the mother for later abortions. You base this morally more sound thing on...what exactly. What exactly is the difference between a fetus at 8n weeks and a fetus 9 weeks that makes one morally better than the other.

Still waiting to understand why the fixation on fetus being the dividing line between when you would permit it. We don't have Roe, anymore so now what?

[Fahran]

Yeah, because the US economy was so good under Trump

Gas didn't cost $5 a gallon under Trump. Inflation also wasn't nearly this high. Mind you, some of that is beyond Biden's control, attributable to his predecessor, bipartisan spending proposals, the ongoing war with Russia, COVID, etc., but he justifiably gets some of the blame since he absolutely supported and pushed for policies that exacerbated the problem. He's just who got left holding the bag for all of it.

[New haven america]

South Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, and Kentucky.

Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, North Dakota, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee all have it on the chopping block and should be illegal within the month.

Oh, and the Reps have promised they'd make it illegal nationwide if they win '24. So much for state's rights.

Like full bans or restrictions?

Full bans.

Intentional, accidental, rape, incest, threat to life, genetic disorder or failed pregnancy, all banned. (Under these laws, miscarriage is also technically illegal)

As will apply to the entire country in '24 if the Reps win.

[New haven america]

Yeah, because the US economy was so good under Trump

Gas didn't cost $5 a gallon under Trump. Inflation also wasn't nearly this high. Mind you, some of that is beyond Biden's control, attributable to his predecessor, bipartisan spending proposals, the ongoing war with Russia, COVID, etc., but he justifiably gets some of the blame since he absolutely supported and pushed for policies that exacerbated the problem. He's just who got left holding the bag for all of it.

"You know, Trump really fucked the economy and lead to sky-high inflation. Let's vote the big guy back in and see if he does better next time!"

Reminder that he went bankrupt 3 times.

[Khurkhogur]

So 79% of abortions you think should be permitted as well as the whatever percent that is due to the life of the mother for later abortions. You base this morally more sound thing on...what exactly. What exactly is the difference between a fetus at 8n weeks and a fetus 9 weeks that makes one morally better than the other.
Still waiting to understand why the fixation on fetus being the dividing line between when you would permit it. We don't have Roe, anymore so now what?

The embryo is not considered living, the fetus is. Getting rid of a bunch of non-independent cells is morally sound to some extent, getting rid of a living thing isn't. It's that simple. The reason for the arbitrary, and I fully accept that it's arbitrary, line between embryo and fetus at ~9 weeks is because you can't treat everything on a case-by-case basis. There needs to be some sort of common line between fetus and not fetus, even if it's not always accurate.

[Celritannia]

Yeah, because the US economy was so good under Trump

Gas didn't cost $5 a gallon under Trump. Inflation also wasn't nearly this high. Mind you, some of that is beyond Biden's control, attributable to his predecessor, bipartisan spending proposals, the ongoing war with Russia, COVID, etc., but he justifiably gets some of the blame since he absolutely supported and pushed for policies that exacerbated the problem. He's just who got left holding the bag for all of it.

The economy was good after Obama left it in a pretty decent state, so Trump inherited a not bad economy.

What Trump did after that made the economy worse.
Trump did refuse to do anything serious about COVID that could have helped the people and the economy.

So what Biden inherited from Trump was already going to result in a failing economy in the US.

[Khurkhogur]

Funny thing, the women in that marriage agree that they should be sexually available to their husband whenever their husband desires, normally because they have been taught that since childhood. The court cannot do a damned thing about it. And who exactly would bring this before a court? The wife? given the background not going to happen.

Goalposts fully shifted and not within the scope of the original analogy. Suffice it to say that I don't think marital rape is a good thing.

And why do you believe that an abortion is "shrugging it off?"

Because (in the case of aborting a fetus) you're killing a living thing in order to escape responsibility for giving birth to it and raising it.

Read the article, most of it was pure speculation.

The article was not pure speculation, it was saying that that "medical necessity" is a nuanced issue while also saying "[The] share [of c-sections] has gone up significantly over time, and many in the scientific community believe that it’s higher than is necessary. Increases in C-section rates have not translated to healthier moms or babies. Although it’s impossible to know the “necessary” rate with real precision, the World Health Organization says it is closer to 10 or 15 percent." It comes right out and says that experts widely believe more c-sections than required are performed. That's just not speculation any way you slice it.

[San Lumen]

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... -liability

Newsom signs bill protecting California abortion providers from civil liability

[Port Caverton]

Like full bans or restrictions?

Full bans.

Intentional, accidental, rape, incest, threat to life, genetic disorder or failed pregnancy, all banned. (Under these laws, miscarriage is also technically illegal)

As will apply to the entire country in '24 if the Reps win.

Where have you read that? from what I've know all states have at least the "threat to life" exception.

[San Lumen]

https://tulsaworld.com/video/news/gov-k ... c896a.html

"The womb is now, in Oklahoma, the safest place for a child to be," Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor said.

This has to be one of the cringiest and most tone deaf statements I’ve ever heard.

[Port Caverton]

https://tulsaworld.com/video/news/gov-kevin-stitt-and-oklahoma-ag-celebrate-roe-v-wade-being-overturned/video_36010b5a-cf8d-5aa6-b81d-d40e628c896a.html

"The womb is now, in Oklahoma, the safest place for a child to be," Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor said.

This has to be one of the cringiest and most tone deaf statements I’ve ever heard.

Most mature US politician

[Great Heathen Air Force]

So 79% of abortions you think should be permitted as well as the whatever percent that is due to the life of the mother for later abortions. You base this morally more sound thing on...what exactly. What exactly is the difference between a fetus at 8n weeks and a fetus 9 weeks that makes one morally better than the other.
Still waiting to understand why the fixation on fetus being the dividing line between when you would permit it. We don't have Roe, anymore so now what?

The embryo is not considered living, the fetus is.

I can't think of a way in which that sentence is scientifically justifiable.

[San Lumen]

https://tulsaworld.com/video/news/gov-kevin-stitt-and-oklahoma-ag-celebrate-roe-v-wade-being-overturned/video_36010b5a-cf8d-5aa6-b81d-d40e628c896a.html

"The womb is now, in Oklahoma, the safest place for a child to be," Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor said.

This has to be one of the cringiest and most tone deaf statements I’ve ever heard.

Most mature US politician

Is this you agreeing with me or with him?

[Port Caverton]

Most mature US politician

Is this you agreeing with me or with him?

With you

[San Lumen]

Is this you agreeing with me or with him?

With you

Oh ok. Just wanted to clarify.